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[Parakeetman]

I think that for "Monster Hunter clones" people also refer to such titles with a heavy local co-op mode, exactly as Phantasy Star Portable. The fact that this game was able to sell over 600k is a clear indicator that tried to attract Monster Hunter fanbase, and succeeded i it, given that the series never topped such numbers.

Phantasy Star in general has always had a fanbase before hand. So the fact that it went portable and lots of people had a PSP, its no wonder why it sold.

 

[electroplankton]

Phantasy Star in general has always had a fanbase before hand. So the fact that it went portable and lots of people had a PSP, its no wonder why it sold.

Actually it is.
PSP is the best selling game in the series, and it sold way higher than all other entries in the last ten years; PSU on PS2 sold "only" 188k.

 

[Aostia]

In regards to people saying "Monster Hunter Clones" there only really was 2 of them on the PSP.

The terrible Lord of Arcana by Square Enix

and

God Eater by Bandai-Namco.

Now if you want a real "clone" that would be Hunter Blade by some Chinese company. Who just went and ripped a bunch of shit from the PSP version through reverse engineering.

People who try to say Phantasy Star also falls under that category forget to realize that series has been around longer than Monster Hunter. Id have to say Lord of Arcana might be closer to Phantasy Star than Monster Hunter really. Same goes for the latest Lord of Apocalypse and Ragnarok on the VITA.

PH portable is one of the best example to understand the power of MH on PSP: that episode was able to reach unprecedent sales thanks to the popularity given to that kind of gameplay on that console on that time in Japan.
But generally speaking, I think that it's not only a matter of clone or genre, is a matter of demographic.
A lot of PSP titles benefit from MH explosion, imho.

The difference is we have a precedent with the Vita of A) selling like crap and B) not receiving very good 3rd party support.

Wii U is a brand new platform, from a Japanese company, where the single new Japanese 3rd party game announced in a year has been Tanks! Do you find it at all logical that Nintendo would have significantly worse 3rd party support for launch from Japan as compared to the West? Doesn't it make much more sense that Iwata is..I dunno..telling the truth when he says Japanese 3rd party efforts will be unveiled later?

I think I'm done with this.

I understand your point, but it seems to me that you are sure that a Nintendo home console cannot launch with absimal third party support.
I think that it can happen, and in fact already happened before (both for Wii and GC for example) and that it was less probable to see a Sony portable console to launch in Japan with an absimal third party support, but...it happened!

 

[electroplankton]

I understand your point, but it seems to me that you are sure that a Nintendo home console cannot launch with absimal third party support.
I think that it can happen, and in fact already happened before (both for Wii and GC for example) and that it was less probable to see a Sony portable console to launch in Japan with an absimal third party support, but...it happened!

Btw, you said Iwata had said Wii U would have seen Western third parties support at E3... Well, expectations were surely higher, but there were something be excited for, at least something better that we have seen on Wii, such as Ubisoft line-up, Mass Effect 3, Batman and Scribblenauts.

 

[Takao]

Btw, you said Iwata had said Wii U would have seen Western third parties support at E3... Well, expectations were surely higher, but there were something be excited for, at least something better that we have seen on Wii, such as Ubisoft line-up, Mass Effect 3, Batman and Scribblenauts.

He said for 3DS, which Iwata did say we'd get see more of at E3. What we got was an outsourced Castlevania, and an already known Epic Mickey.

 

[schuelma]

I understand your point, but it seems to me that you are sure that a Nintendo home console cannot launch with absimal third party support.
I think that it can happen, and in fact already happened before (both for Wii and GC for example) and that it was less probable to see a Sony portable console to launch in Japan with an absimal third party support, but...it happened!

No, my main point is actually very simple. Iwata tweeted during the E3 press conference that Japanese 3rd party announcements would be made later. You are choosing to not believe him, even though every piece of evidence would suggest that he is telling the truth.

Carry on

 

[Aostia]

Btw, you said Iwata had said Wii U would have seen Western third parties support at E3... Well, expectations were surely higher, but there were something be excited for, at least something better that we have seen on Wii, such as Ubisoft line-up, Mass Effect 3, Batman and Scribblenauts.

He said for 3DS, which Iwata did say we'd get see more of at E3. What we got was an outsourced Castlevania, and an already known Epic Mickey.

This

No, my main point is actually very simple. Iwata tweeted during the E3 press conference that Japanese 3rd party announcements would be made later. You are choosing to not believe him, even though every piece of evidence would suggest that he is telling the truth.

Carry on

I simply believe what I say, if I have to judge something.
Or I believe both Sony and Nintendo, or I believe the official announcement.

Question: if you have to discuss about Wii U third party support, is your feedback positive? Mine, is negative up to now.

If games will be announced, I'll change my mind.

 

[electroplankton]

He said for 3DS, which Iwata did say we'd get see more of at E3. What we got was an outsourced Castlevania, and an already known Epic Mickey.

And Scribblenauts as well, lol (which is actually a pretty big IP in the US).

 

[Takao]

And Scribblenauts as well, lol (which is actually a pretty big IP in the US).

That Scribblenauts game is even worse since it's going to be on a handful of other platforms.

Spoiler

I also don't think highly of that series, or its developer based on the games I've played.

 

[Parakeetman]

Scribblenauts would have been a lot better if the first one had D pad controls. Since the touch and how fail it was with getting max to do things at times was beyond maddening.

Thank god number 2 added Dpad controls.

Its things like that which is why I HATE games that only use touch controls.

 

[Boney]

gibberish

I heard you're a betting man

 

[test_account]

It is widely accepted that Monster Hunter Portable drove the software explosion on PSP; but not because of the success of the game itself, but because hardware sales increased; actually, PSP started to increase in late 2007, when Crisis Core, Portable Ops+ and the new version was released.

By the way, in such list it is worth mentioning that among those games, there were already quite big names, something that Vita doesn't have.

MH helped a lot in increasing the install base and in putting the console in a very positive and active shine, also if no all those games were MH clones obviously.
But if you look at the previous list of +300 mark games you'll find out a very similar demographic for the vast majority of them.

What I'm trying to say is that MH helped a lot PSP momentum, really.

Yep, that was the point The PSP had a very nice userbase as time went buy, which was a big reason why so many 3rd party developers started to make PSP games. One of reasons for this userbase was Monster Hunter, but for the Vita to reach a certain number of higher userbase, some games will be the reason for that too, even if it isnt on the same level as MH.

But i didnt mean it much as an arguement for the Vita, i just mentioned it show that the situation where a lot of 3rd parties started to make games because of the bigger userbase have happened before.

I actually should have added "with the exception of PSP in Japan post-MH."

But MH was basically a miracle, and as mentioned above, that boom was also aided by titles like Crisis Core that should have been announced by this point in Vita's lifespan, particularly considering Sony's historic willingness to announce games that are well over a year from release.

Fair enough. I just wanted to mention that it had happened before

 

[Mpl90]

But, in reality, Iwata wasn't that wrong: do anyone remember an end of the year for DS with an exclusive Rabbids game, an exclusive semi-main western action title ( Castlevania), a Mickey Mouse title with so much importance ( Epic Mickey: Power of Illusion), alongside a good portable brand like Scribblenauts? Usually, DS had many multi releases like Lego, COD and other things, then many niche Japanese titles. The most DS had for the last months have been the two Scribblenauts titles. There IS an improvement.

 

[Parakeetman]

Since the PS2 was totally being phased out, can see why a lot of the smaller dev houses shifted to the PSP.

The PSP is basically the portable PS2 now is how I see it and what has allowed a lot of the smaller studios to stay alive and continue pushing out games.

A migration for developers if you will.

 

[metalslimer]

I don't see how anyone could possibly argue that Monster Hunter isn't the reason for increases PSP software support. That big userbase wouldn't have existed without it. And even with that userbase the software attach ratio is actually terrible and Monster Hunter is the only game that sold over million on a system with an approaching 19 million userbase.

 

[test_account]

I don't see how anyone could possibly argue that Monster Hunter isn't the reason for increases PSP software support. That big userbase wouldn't have existed without it. And even with that userbase the software attach ratio is actually terrible and Monster Hunter is the only game that sold over million on a system with an approaching 19 million userbase.

If you're referring to what i said, i didnt make this arguement. All i said was that there have been a case where the userbase grew, and because of this, the system got a lot of support from 3rd parties. I didnt diminish that MH was a big reason for the PSP userbase grow. I didnt mean it much as an arguement for the Vita, i just wanted to mention that such senario had happened before.

EDIT: About attach ratio. I'm not sure how updated Garaph.info is, but using those numbers, we get a PSP attach ratio of about 3.4. For comparison, the DS attach ratio is on about 5.2. It isnt really that terrible, in my opinion.

 

[mugurumakensei]

3DS software sells like shit in west apart from Nintendo games and I wouldn't be suprised if PSV retail+DD profits were bigger than 3DS profits from retail for 3rd parties.

No. we know this is not the case in the u.s, france, germany, italy, and many more. At best, it might be the case in the UK, but I doubt it.

 

[muu]

There was relatively strong initial PSP support, which managed to get MH off the ground even as the market was slowing down and allowed it to make a recovery to relevancy. It's difficult for Vita to achieve anything similar, as the initial momentum isn't there. As for its current state, the small boosts given by Persona (and likely Miku in the coming months) share more of a resemblance with the Japanese 360 "JRPG rush" than anything else. We did see a spike with Tales of Vesperia, sales shot up for Blue Dragon, etc. But it's not the type of game that can sustain increased sales, and numbers stabilized. Follower titles did not materialize either, because it wasn't like a sizable userbase was created.

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

So it's too soon to declare Vita doomed, but not too soon to claim Wii U has no Japanese support. Amazing.

 

[saichi]

Fair enough. I just wanted to mention that it had happened before

This is the same "there is a chance lightening will strike twice" mentality though.

EDIT: About attach ratio. I'm not sure how updated Garaph.info is, but using those numbers, we get a PSP attach ratio of about 3.4. For comparison, the DS attach ratio is on about 5.2. It isnt really that terrible, in my opinion.

The competition attach ratio is 50% higher with 75% more user base. If this is not terrible, what do you think it's a terrible number?

 

[test_account]

This is the same "there is a chance lighting will strike twice" mentality though.

That could be said yes. Personally i would rather say that it is not ruling anything out.

The competition attach ratio is 50% higher with 75% more user base. If this is not terrible, what do you think it's a terrible number?

An attach ratio less than two is something i'd concider as terrible i think.

 

[metalslimer]

That could be said yes. Personally i would rather say that it is not ruling anything out.

This is a terrible mentality to take in a sales thread. Anything could happen! The 360 could magically rise from the grave and become the Japanese consoles of choice! Just because something can happen, doesn't mean it' likely to.

 

[electroplankton]

So it's too soon to declare Vita doomed, but not too soon to claim Wii U has no Japanese support. Amazing.

Yeah, Sony platform, you know.

There was relatively strong initial PSP support, which managed to get MH off the ground even as the market was slowing down and allowed it to make a recovery to relevancy. It's difficult for Vita to achieve anything similar, as the initial momentum isn't there. As for its current state, the small boosts given by Persona (and likely Miku in the coming months) share more of a resemblance with the Japanese 360 "JRPG rush" than anything else. We did see a spike with Tales of Vesperia, sales shot up for Blue Dragon, etc. But it's not the type of game that can sustain increased sales, and numbers stabilized. Follower titles did not materialize either, because it wasn't like a sizable userbase was created.

Indeed, I pointed out how the boost Persona 4 gave to Vita was really similar in terms of numbers to the boost Blue Dragon gave to 360 some years ago, even the declining trend the week following the launch.

 

[test_account]

This is a terrible mentality to take in a sales thread. Anything could happen! The 360 could magically rise from the grave and become the Japanese consoles of choice! Just because something can happen, doesn't mean it' likely to.

I agree.

In my case however, not ruling anything out means that i dont rule out the other possiblities too. Xbox 360 is 6 years into it's cycle, so i think it is pretty safe to say that nothing will change now. But very early in the Xbox 360 lifecycle in Japan, i wouldnt completely have ruled out that it could have been a viable platform. This doesnt mean that i think the Xbox 360 had a huge chance to succeed in Japan, but i would not rule it out completely either. So i would keep both option open early on. Or in other words, not ruling anything out

So there is a difference between not ruling something completely out early in the lify cycle and say much later on that everything can happend. I think it is important to point out the difference between those two things because the mentality behind those things are very different.

Yeah, Sony platform, you know.

I dont think there is much difference the other way around. There are someone who were very quick to say that Vita is going to fail, but have positive outcomes for the WiiU.

 

[Takao]

An attach ratio less than two is something i'd concider as terrible i think.

Is there a platform in history that has actually had an attach ratio less than 2? I mean like a real platform, not some CDi knockoff from the early 90s sold exclusively at Radio Shack or something.

 

[Aostia]

So it's too soon to declare Vita doomed, but not too soon to claim Wii U has no Japanese support. Amazing.

if you are talking about my posts, nope.
I never intended to say that we can assume now that wii u will never have third party support
neither that Vita will struggle forever as it is now

is too early in my opinion for both the sentences.

I think I explained a lot my thoughts about this

 

[Count Dookkake]

.

 

[test_account]

Is there a platform in history that has actually had an attach ratio less than 2? I mean like a real platform, not some CDi knockoff from the early 90s sold exclusively at Radio Shack or something.

I'm not sure. My guess would be no. But as with all adjectives, "terrible" is relative. Compared to an attach ratio of i.e 10, then 3.4 can be seen as terrible in comparison indeed. A comparison between 3.4 and 5.2 however, i dont see that as terrible.

This is just about the attach ratio however. I think that the total sales numbers is more important, and also that developers are able to find success and stay in business, regardless on which system we're talking about.

 

[electroplankton]

if you are talking about my posts, nope.
I never intended to say that we can assume now that wii u will never have third party support
neither that Vita will struggle forever as it is now

is too early in my opinion for both the sentences.

I think I explained a lot my thoughts about this

Well, it may be too early to say that Vita is doomed, but it's not too early to say that it's in a very dangerous position, and the outlook on the future is not positive at all.

I'm not sure. My guess would be no. But as with all adjectives, "terrible" is relative. Compared to an attach ratio of i.e 10, then 3.4 can be seen as terrible in comparison indeed. A comparison between 3.4 and 5.2 however, i dont see that as terrible.

It really depends on how the other platforms performed. Has a 10 tie-ratio platform even existed?

 

[Aostia]

Well, it may be too early to say that Vita is doomed, but it's not too early to say that it's in a very dangerous position, and the outlook on the future is not positive at all.

I agree, in fact I said this various time in my previous posts

 

[cw_sasuke]

So it's too soon to declare Vita doomed, but not too soon to claim Wii U has no Japanese support. Amazing.

Bazinga !!

 

[Takao]

It really depends on how the other platforms performed. Has a 10 tie-ratio platform even existed?

The King had a 12.4 attach rate as of 2003. That number diminished as time went on.

 

[test_account]

It really depends on how the other platforms performed. Has a 10 tie-ratio platform even existed?

Yep, it is all relative.

I think that total software sales are more interesting to see the success. Attach ratio is interesting too, but looking at this alone can paint a bit different picture. Like with PSP and DS, we can say that every PSP owner bought 3.4 games, while every DS owner bought 5.2 games. The difference of 1.8 games doesnt really sound that much i think, but when you look at the total software sales, the difference is huge between those systems.

I dont think 10 have excisted, i just used that as an high example. PS2 has around 8 i think, not sure if there are any higher than that.


EDIT:

The King had a 12.4 attach rate as of 2003. That number diminished as time went on.

That is really high.

 

[electroplankton]

Yep, it is all relative.

I dont think 10 have excisted, i just used that as an high example. PS2 has around 8 i think, not sure if there are any higher than that.

Also: if 360 has a high tie-ratio, would you use this parameter to say such platform succeeded?

 

[test_account]

Also: if 360 has a high tie-ratio, would you use this parameter to say such platform succeeded?

I edited my earlier post a bit regarding my view on attach ratio.

About Xbox 360, it depends on how success is defined. Attach ratio is an interesting point to see how many owners that bought games for the system, but i wouldnt use it as an absolute factor for overall success. Otherwise the Xbox 360 could be seen as more successful than the DS because it actually has a higher attach ratio (about 5.6, the DS has about 5.2). The total software sales and if comapnies can make profit are more important factors i think when we talk about overall success.

 

[king zell]

Time Travelers 3DS\VITA

http://www.true-gaming.net/home/83111/

Pocket Soccer League: Calciobit

http://www.true-gaming.net/home/83104/

more releases for the week (and EO4 is back on stock)

http://www.true-gaming.net/home/83099/

 

[BishopLamont]

I dont think there is much difference the other way around. There are someone who were very quick to say that Vita is going to fail, but have positive outcomes for the WiiU.

Difference is that the Vita has been out for half a year, the Wii U hasn't even launched. Thats a huge difference.

 

[metalslimer]

Difference is that the Vita has been out for half a year, the Wii U hasn't even launched. Thats a huge difference.

Exactly. If the situation was the Vita hadn't even launched yet and people were doomsaying it would be a different story.

 

[test_account]

Difference is that the Vita has been out for half a year, the Wii U hasn't even launched. Thats a huge difference.

Absolutely. I just ment it to the comment about "it's Sony", that there are bias on both sides on NeoGAF.

 

[BishopLamont]

Absolutely. I just ment it to the comment about "it's Sony", that there are bias on both sides on NeoGAF.

Yeah and the bias can go from low to extreme. The Wii U and Vita situation has so many different variables that comparing the two is pretty stupid. To put it simply, Wii U has the backing of Nintendo and Iwata, Vita has the backing of....niche publishers. Pointing out everything else over and over and over again is just tiring at this stage.

 

[Takao]

Exactly. If the situation was the Vita hadn't even launched yet and people were doomsaying it would be a different story.

People were doomsaying well before Vita launched, lol.

 

[test_account]

Yeah and the bias can go from low to extreme. The Wii U and Vita situation has so many different variables that comparing the two is pretty stupid. To put it simply, Wii U has the backing of Nintendo and Iwata, Vita has the backing of....niche publishers. Pointing out everything else over and over and over again is just tiring at this stage.

I agree. The system isnt even out yet, so it is just a wild guess at this moment.

I think that there was a misunderstand earlier in this case though, because Aostia clearified later that he didnt say that it isnt too early to say about WiiU's 3rd party support. So it didnt seem to be about extreme bias (or bias at all perhaps). I wasnt referring to anyone in this thread either just so that is said, i was only talking in general.

 

[BishopLamont]

People were doomsaying well before Vita launched, lol.

Shit first party support, shit third party support, launching late, high price (well more shitty value), predecessor not very successful but still successful enough to cannibalize its sales. Yeah...pretty obvious the Vita was gonna fail. You can't say the same thing about the Wii U. The Wii U does have many things against it, but at the end of the day, you have Iwata who is active enough to at least try to make the console successful. Sony shows they have no idea at all.

 

[schuelma]

Shit first party support, shit third party support, launching late, high price (well more shitty value), predecessor not very successful but still successful enough to cannibalize its sales. Yeah...pretty obvious the Vita was gonna fail. You can't say the same thing about the Wii U. The Wii U does have many things against it, but at the end of the day, you have Iwata who is active enough to at least try to make the console successful. Sony shows they have no idea at all.

Right. That is why I disagree with any analysis trying to draw any meaningful parallels between the two right now.

 

[jman2050]

Wii U will not have any actual competition when it launches in Japan. That's the biggest difference from my point of view.

 

[Takao]

Wii U will not have any actual competition when it launches in Japan. That's the biggest difference from my point of view.

A redesigned, and likely cheaper PS3 with a solid, but not spectacular lineup of software (that admittedly consists of sequels to games already on the platform) is no competition?

 

[yankee666]

Pocket Soccer League: Calciobit

http://www.true-gaming.net/home/83104/

I hope this one sells well. Im already in love with the demo and i cant wait to have my copy

 

[BishopLamont]

Wii U will not have any actual competition when it launches in Japan. That's the biggest difference from my point of view.

A redesigned, and likely cheaper PS3 with a solid, but not spectacular lineup of software (that admittedly consists of sequels to games already on the platform) is no competition?

Yeah like how 3DS launched against the PSP. Its left over competition. Its weak competition. The PSP was actually doing way better in raw numbers compared to the PS3, look at how fast it dropped within the year.

 

[jman2050]

A redesigned, and likely cheaper PS3 with a solid, but not spectacular lineup of software (that admittedly consists of sequels to games already on the platform) is no competition?

Yeah that's what I just said.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

I'm putting my money on Taiko selling 500k+ LTD.