Support NeoGAF

[iLLmAtlc]

Wish I could help but I'm in Canada and have no understanding of US procedural rules.

You should goto a law library and read a practice manual on civil procedure. I'm willing to bet that if the book is not on point, it will be very close, and with a case cited too.

 

[Fragamemnon]

Maybe a weird place to ask-I'm looking to have a consultation with a Canadian immigration lawyer, but have zero idea where to start to find one (I live in the US and am looking to immigrate). I could google / trawl quora or something looking for someone, but before I resorted to that I wanted to see if anyone in this thread had a contact in that space I could reach out to.

 

[iLLmAtlc]

Maybe a weird place to ask-I'm looking to have a consultation with a Canadian immigration lawyer, but have zero idea where to start to find one (I live in the US and am looking to immigrate). I could google / trawl quora or something looking for someone, but before I resorted to that I wanted to see if anyone in this thread had a contact in that space I could reach out to.

i dunno any, but remember that all lawyers are regulated by the law societies in their provinces. you can search for a lawyer's disciplinary history at each law society's website.

 

[ZackieChan]

And there's a few lawyer reviewing and search sites - avvo.com, for instance. Don't know if they handle Canada, though.

 

[linid0t]

Emory w/99000 or ND w/60000?

I am an ND undergrad right now, so if I stay I know a friend who owns a house that I can rent out for almost nothing, so living costs are probably a ton lower in ND especially compared to a school in a bigger city like Atlanta - won't be able to overcome 40000 difference of course, but does close the gap a bit.

Would be nice to stay near underclassmen friends too...

Emory does sound warmer, but is Atlanta a nice city to live near? I can't drive and I've heard Emory is a very car-centric university.

I've lived abroad most of my life so I don't really have any specific destination I'd want to work in - well I guess a big city would be preferable.

Still though, 40000...

I know the market sucks now, but there have been quite a few lawyers in my extended family so I've wanted to be one ever since I was a child.

What does GAF think?

 

[Bboy AJ]

Go to the bigger city with more opportunities and broaden your alumni connections.

 

[Metaphoreus]

I figured you'd all get a kick out of seeing the Rule Against Perpetuities in action:

I thought you all might find this interesting (aside from the terrible headline): First Lady is an Unpaid Gig, and in 1912 a Man Named Henry G. Freeman Thought That Was Unfair

In 1912, Henry Freeman Jr., a wealthy Philadelphia lawyer and real estate investor, set aside money in his will to provide the first lady of the United States with $1,000 a month, or $12,000 a year, “for her own and absolute use.” The money, he determined, would be held in the Henry G. Freeman Jr. Pin Money Fund—a reference to a common idiom for spending money husbands gave their wives. Freeman, whose estate was worth more than $2 million when he died, wrote in the will that he felt the president was paid “a miserable pittance for a man holding the greatest position on earth.” It was $75,000 then, worth more than $1.3 million in today’s dollars, more than triple the $400,000 President Obama is paid. He found it even worse that first ladies—or anyone serving as the White House host—got nothing at all. The payments, Freeman instructed, would continue “in force as long as this glorious government exists.”

The U.S. government continues to exist, but according to the Obamas’ tax returns, Michelle Obama hasn’t gotten any pin money since 2010, when she received $10,000 from the Freeman fund. It turns out the grandiose terms of Freeman’s will collided with a legal doctrine known as the Rule Against Perpetuities, which puts a 21-year limit on some noncharitable bequests following the death of the last surviving beneficiary.

...

Freeman died in 1917. His pin money fund began paying out in 1989, after Freeman Burrows, his last direct heir, died. The first first lady to benefit was Barbara Bush, who received $36,000 in a single lump sum in December 1992, 90 years after the will was written, once probate courts released the funds.

 

[Byakuya769]

Emory w/99000 or ND w/60000?

I am an ND undergrad right now, so if I stay I know a friend who owns a house that I can rent out for almost nothing, so living costs are probably a ton lower in ND especially compared to a school in a bigger city like Atlanta - won't be able to overcome 40000 difference of course, but does close the gap a bit.

Would be nice to stay near underclassmen friends too...

Emory does sound warmer, but is Atlanta a nice city to live near? I can't drive and I've heard Emory is a very car-centric university.

I've lived abroad most of my life so I don't really have any specific destination I'd want to work in - well I guess a big city would be preferable.

Still though, 40000...

I know the market sucks now, but there have been quite a few lawyers in my extended family so I've wanted to be one ever since I was a child.

What does GAF think?

Come on, man. More money AND a better school?

... you know the answer.

 

[numble]

A heartwarming tale in the New York Times:
http://nyti.ms/1JInb6M

 

[KingGondo]

A heartwarming tale in the New York Times:
http://nyti.ms/1JInb6M

Yay class of 2010.

 

[commish]

A heartwarming tale in the New York Times:
http://nyti.ms/1JInb6M

The most amazing part is that I can show people these articles, and they STILL want to go to law school.

 

[DoktorEvil]

A heartwarming tale in the New York Times:
http://nyti.ms/1JInb6M

I skipped law school because of the costs. Didn't take the LSAT yet.

Wouldn't that be motivation enough to begin your own practice once passing the bar?

 

[Bboy AJ]

A heartwarming tale in the New York Times:
http://nyti.ms/1JInb6M

Ice cold. How's the legal job market in China?

 

[AstroLad]

"Jonathan Wang graduated from Columbia Law School in 2010; he is a test-prep tutor now."
Yikes, those are some scary words. But honestly if you want to play it safe (and you have options), you have to be super thoughtful about where you summer and especially where you start your career. I know people who actively choose smaller markets or "want to avoid biglaw" and then they're surprised at the seriously narrowed options once they've committed to that. Absent something incredibly special about your portfolio, you're just not going to go from Phoenix to LA, even though you can do vice versa. Same goes for biglaw vs. midsize and below.

 

[Advocatus Diaboli]

"Jonathan Wang graduated from Columbia Law School in 2010; he is a test-prep tutor now."
Yikes, those are some scary words. But honestly if you want to play it safe (and you have options), you have to be super thoughtful about where you summer and especially where you start your career. I know people who actively choose smaller markets or "want to avoid biglaw" and then they're surprised at the seriously narrowed options once they've committed to that. Absent something incredibly special about your portfolio, you're just not going to go from Phoenix to LA, even though you can do vice versa. Same goes for biglaw vs. midsize and below.

Yeah, completely true. It's at the point where you need to plan an entire early career trajectory rather than leaving it to chance. I wanted to avoid biglaw (and always will), but I realized that any partner track's effectively sealed off for me. I graduated back in 2008, and I still have friends who are struggling; one took about 3 years to shift from a paralegal-esque job to part-time attorney work.

My own situation's better, but it's taken a lot of effort, luck, and timing. And I'm still not quite there yet.

 

[commish]

Yeah, completely true. It's at the point where you need to plan an entire early career trajectory rather than leaving it to chance. I wanted to avoid biglaw (and always will), but I realized that any partner track's effectively sealed off for me. I graduated back in 2008, and I still have friends who are struggling; one took about 3 years to shift from a paralegal-esque job to part-time attorney work.

My own situation's better, but it's taken a lot of effort, luck, and timing. And I'm still not quite there yet.

Honestly, I don't really understand why people want to avoid biglaw. I personally think there's no better training anywhere.

 

[Cagey]

I personally know of people in worse positions than Mr. Wang from CLS.

At least, in my mind, it's worse. I'd rather have the flexibility of test prep tutoring than work for recruiting firms...

 

[Bboy AJ]

I'm not sure that I'd continue to work in the legal sector if I couldn't land an attorney position. I just don't see the point. It's like eternal hope. No thanks.

 

[DoktorEvil]

I'm not sure that I'd continue to work in the legal sector if I couldn't land an attorney position. I just don't see the point. It's like eternal hope. No thanks.

Don't paralegals require law degrees now?

 

[Frank the Great]

Honestly, I don't really understand why people want to avoid biglaw. I personally think there's no better training anywhere.

I got a job as an entry level attorney at my state's Attorney General office, and the training has been great. I've already had several appellate oral arguments, I've briefed and argued dispositive motions in important cases, been on depositions by myself, engaged in settlement discussions, I got to file a Third Circuit brief, I've participated in meetings with client agencies, and I have several administrative trials scheduled in the next couple of months. With no co-chair. I started in September.

I forgot to mention 9-5 work hours and a real easy billable requirement. Big law can get fukkked.

 

[mre]

Don't paralegals require law degrees now?

No, though some JDs were applying for paralegal positions.

 

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Honestly, I don't really understand why people want to avoid biglaw. I personally think there's no better training anywhere.

I spent 6 years as a JAG: I lived abroad considerably, and I never once toiled in doc review -- I led hundreds of criminal investigations, tried my own cases, dealt with millions of dollars in procurement issues, and advised senior commanders on rules of engagement. None of my peers who went biglaw actually enjoy it -- I'm sure they DO have great training opportunities, but for what I want to do (either international development or national security law, while also factoring in military reserve duty), biglaw is worthless.

But I knew that going in, so I'm not blindsided by that fact. (The only biglaw gig I'd remotely consider is something like CFIUS or navigating export controls, and I've got a friend who's a partner at a firm if I wanted that route.) I had to plan ahead -- and if I hadn't done my current LL.M. program, I'd be much worse off.

 

[commish]

All my training comments refer to corporate law. I actually don't know what those litigation fellows do over there, outside of the fun fun fun doc review.

 

[linid0t]

Alright, well George Washington just upped their offer to 75k total. Is the DC location better (for jobs) than the extra cash (24k) from Emory and smaller class sizes?

Which location would be more non-car friendly?

 

[commish]

Alright, well George Washington just upped their offer to 75k total. Is the DC location better (for jobs) than the extra cash (24k) from Emory and smaller class sizes?

Which location would be more non-car friendly?

GW is 100% non-car friendly.

Smaller class sizes are irrelevant, tbh.

DC would be the better location.

 

[PBY]

Alright, well George Washington just upped their offer to 75k total. Is the DC location better (for jobs) than the extra cash (24k) from Emory and smaller class sizes?

Which location would be more non-car friendly?

I don't think class size matters. DC is better, but being 10000% frank with you, you're in a suboptimal position to get biglaw, so perhaps minimizing debt is the move?

 

[TangoAlphaLima]

Honestly, I don't really understand why people want to avoid biglaw. I personally think there's no better training anywhere.

Not all Big Law jobs are the same. Many young associates in Big Law get stuck doing the boring office work. Plus the billable hour requirements can be burdensome, especially if you have a family and enjoy spending time with them.

 

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Alright, well George Washington just upped their offer to 75k total. Is the DC location better (for jobs) than the extra cash (24k) from Emory and smaller class sizes?

Which location would be more non-car friendly?

What you can't overlook is the opportunity you have in DC to network as well as take advantage of the fact that it's the epicenter for many awesome internship opportunities. (I live in DC. I'll buy you a beer sometime.) What do you want to do and where do you want to ideally work?

 

[linid0t]

I don't really mind where I end up working, although I'd prefer to be in a city.

I've been thinking about focusing on international law or business law. Another option I was looking into was intellectual property law, but I heard that it was pretty tough to get into without appropriate undergraduate experience (I'm majoring in economics and philosophy).

I've heard a lot about how the DC area has a lot of opportunities, but also how there's also a ton more competition since there are disproportionately more law schools in the area, so it might actually be more difficult to find internships and work. Is this accurate?

 

[numble]

I don't really mind where I end up working, although I'd prefer to be in a city.

I've been thinking about focusing on international law or business law. Another option I was looking into was intellectual property law, but I heard that it was pretty tough to get into without appropriate undergraduate experience (I'm majoring in economics and philosophy).

I've heard a lot about how the DC area has a lot of opportunities, but also how there's also a ton more competition since there are disproportionately more law schools in the area, so it might actually be more difficult to find internships and work. Is this accurate?

"International law"--don't you want to be in DC for that? Explain more about what you mean by wanting to do "international law."

 

[Advocatus Diaboli]

I don't really mind where I end up working, although I'd prefer to be in a city.

I've been thinking about focusing on international law or business law. Another option I was looking into was intellectual property law, but I heard that it was pretty tough to get into without appropriate undergraduate experience (I'm majoring in economics and philosophy).

I've heard a lot about how the DC area has a lot of opportunities, but also how there's also a ton more competition since there are disproportionately more law schools in the area, so it might actually be more difficult to find internships and work. Is this accurate?

Not from what I've seen. I'm getting my LL.M. in Georgetown right now, and I know people from GW, American, and Catholic -- they all seem to be doing well, at least as far as opportunities go. As far as IP goes, you can do everything but patents, really, without passing the patent bar.

"International law"--don't you want to be in DC for that? Explain more about what you mean by wanting to do "international law."

Yeah. International law can mean everything from "International Committee of the Red Cross" to "double Dutch sandwich tax havens."

 

[linid0t]

"International law"--don't you want to be in DC for that? Explain more about what you mean by wanting to do "international law."

Well, I've always been interested in how countries follow different customs which translate into different laws and interpretations of how those laws should be upheld. I think that I'd enjoy studying how these different laws work when there are disputes that involve different countries or businesses operating across multiple countries. I'm pretty sure that the study of international law covers these sorts of topics.

However, I'm not sure if this sort of skill set would be really useful after graduation - I feel like I'd have to be pretty lucky to get a job that would require knowledge about how laws interact across countries So, I'm not really set on this area of study.

 

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Well, I've always been interested in how countries follow different customs which translate into different laws and interpretations of how those laws should be upheld. I think that I'd enjoy studying how these different laws work when there are disputes that involve different countries or businesses operating across multiple countries. I'm pretty sure that the study of international law covers these sorts of topics.

However, I'm not sure if this sort of skill set would be really useful after graduation - I feel like I'd have to be pretty lucky to get a job that would require knowledge about how laws interact across countries So, I'm not really set on this area of study.

You're not going to learn much about this in law school. You will, however, be exposed to things like choice of law provisions (i.e., which law governs a given dispute); basic international law (e.g., international human rights law and international humanitarian law); and possibly, depending on electives, different multilateral treaties or organizations (e.g., the Berne Convention on copyright and the World Trade Organization).

You can definitely emerge from law school with some preparation in, for example, international IP. But you're not going to learn, say, consumer protection laws applicable in Turkey.

 

[numble]

Well, I've always been interested in how countries follow different customs which translate into different laws and interpretations of how those laws should be upheld. I think that I'd enjoy studying how these different laws work when there are disputes that involve different countries or businesses operating across multiple countries. I'm pretty sure that the study of international law covers these sorts of topics.

However, I'm not sure if this sort of skill set would be really useful after graduation - I feel like I'd have to be pretty lucky to get a job that would require knowledge about how laws interact across countries So, I'm not really set on this area of study.

International Law doesn't really cover comparative law. The best you can do on that front is running some global M&A that requires you to gather info about the different tax, antitrust, and regulatory implications of an acquisition.

Or you can be very familiar with 2 sets of jurisdictions and help explain laws to clients/investors that are unfamiliar with another country's laws.

Usually, the contract is going to have a choice of law and if you're doing business in a country you're going to have to follow those laws. I guess where there can be disputes are in the areas of double taxation and tax treaties, which really does involve international law.

 

[linid0t]

hmmm, aren't international law and comparative law in the same study focus? like:

http://www.law.gwu.edu/Academics/FocusAreas/international/Pages/default.aspx

Or are they usually studied separately?

 

[Advocatus Diaboli]

hmmm, aren't international law and comparative law in the same study focus? like:

http://www.law.gwu.edu/Academics/FocusAreas/international/Pages/default.aspx

Or are they usually studied separately?

You're looking at LL.M. programs. They're more focused. For your J.D., you're not getting into comparative law (except maybe in a handful of elective classes). With LL.M. programs, you have two semesters of picking whatever courses satisfy your "focus." For instance, I'm in a National Security Law LL.M. right now: all of my courses are in that field.

 

[linid0t]

You're looking at LL.M. programs. They're more focused. For your J.D., you're not getting into comparative law (except maybe in a handful of elective classes). With LL.M. programs, you have two semesters of picking whatever courses satisfy your "focus." For instance, I'm in a National Security Law LL.M. right now: all of my courses are in that field.

Ah, I see my error now. So I guess the big question is if the location of GW makes a big enough difference to overcome the extra cash from Emory. I'm leaning towards a no now, although my parents and sister advise me to go to GW and just take in the extra debt.

 

[Zimmy64]

Hey Law School and Lawyer Gaf. I just finished my junior year of college, and take the LSAT in October. I started studying in April so I'll have about six months to do so (and nothing to do over the summer but study for it). I'm thinking of attending either the U of M Law School (its about 45 minutes from my house) or the University of Michigan Law School. I want to study Business and/or Health Care law and plan on practicing in Minnesota. Which of the two would you suggest?

 

[Bboy AJ]

Hey Law School and Lawyer Gaf. I just finished my junior year of college, and take the LSAT in October. I started studying in April so I'll have about six months to do so (and nothing to do over the summer but study for it). I'm thinking of attending either the U of M Law School (its about 45 minutes from my house) or the University of Michigan Law School. I want to study Business and/or Health Care law and plan on practicing in Minnesota. Which of the two would you suggest?

Take the lsat first. Then let's talk.

 

[commish]

Hey Law School and Lawyer Gaf. I just finished my junior year of college, and take the LSAT in October. I started studying in April so I'll have about six months to do so (and nothing to do over the summer but study for it). I'm thinking of attending either the U of M Law School (its about 45 minutes from my house) or the University of Michigan Law School. I want to study Business and/or Health Care law and plan on practicing in Minnesota. Which of the two would you suggest?

It's at this point I give my anti-law school speech but it's late. Just don't go straight through from college to law school.

 

[ZackieChan]

It's at this point I give my anti-law school speech but it's late. Just don't go straight through from college to law school.

Hopefully we saved another one from a lifetime of disappointment and regret

 

[mre]

Hey Law School and Lawyer Gaf. I just finished my junior year of college, and take the LSAT in October. I started studying in April so I'll have about six months to do so (and nothing to do over the summer but study for it). I'm thinking of attending either the U of M Law School (its about 45 minutes from my house) or the University of Michigan Law School. I want to study Business and/or Health Care law and plan on practicing in Minnesota. Which of the two would you suggest?

Michigan is "higher ranked" but for practicing in Minnesota, I doubt it would make much of a difference. If you insist upon going to law school, go to whichever will get you out with the least amount of debt.

 

[commish]

Hopefully we saved another one from a lifetime of disappointment and regret

I love my job, but I'm definitely in the minority. So many of my lawyer friends are trying to get out of law (if they haven't already), it's crazy. I always ask them why they went to law school in the first place, and it's always either (i) I always wanted to be a lawyer, but didn't really know what it meant to be a lawyer or (ii) I was in undergrad, didn't know what to do upon graduation, so went to law school.

I always suggest that a person takes 2 or 3 years after undergrad before going to law school.

 

[iLLmAtlc]

Latest article of unhappiness in the profession. http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/05/12/lawyers-with-lowest-pay-report-more-happiness/?_r=0

But also:

Researchers who surveyed 6,200 lawyers about their jobs and health found that the factors most frequently associated with success in the legal field, such as high income or a partner-track job at a prestigious firm, had almost zero correlation with happiness and well-being. However, lawyers in public-service jobs who made the least money, like public defenders or Legal Aid attorneys, were most likely to report being happy

I'm just in law school and even though I'm satisfied with everything right now I'm still worried that all the stress is silently damaging me.

 

[ZackieChan]

I love my job, but I'm definitely in the minority. So many of my lawyer friends are trying to get out of law (if they haven't already), it's crazy. I always ask them why they went to law school in the first place, and it's always either (i) I always wanted to be a lawyer, but didn't really know what it meant to be a lawyer or (ii) I was in undergrad, didn't know what to do upon graduation, so went to law school.

I always suggest that a person takes 2 or 3 years after undergrad before going to law school.

I actually love it, as well. But I am in solo practice, make very little money, have very little stress, and have accepted that I will never pay off my student loans.

 

[Frank the Great]

I love my job but I'm pretty sure that if I were in private practice I would hate my life.

 

[stn]

Hey folks, need some advice on cover letters. I've been sending out what I think are very "proper" cover letters, in that they're by-the-book. What would you guys say if I said I wanted to compose cover letters that were much more personal and slightly creative? Any advice in general? Thank you!

 

[ZackieChan]

I love my job but I'm pretty sure that if I were in private practice I would hate my life.

Why?

 

[mre]

Hey folks, need some advice on cover letters. I've been sending out what I think are very "proper" cover letters, in that they're by-the-book. What would you guys say if I said I wanted to compose cover letters that were much more personal and slightly creative? Any advice in general? Thank you!

Depends upon the firm. The creative cover letter may attract attention at some firms, but turn off other firms.

 

[Frank the Great]

Why?

35 hours a week and no economic pressure = the shite. I feel bad for some of my law school colleagues slaving away at firms. I only hear bad things. Many don't even make much more money than I do anyway.