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[Madserb2023]

Some people fuck up their metabolism by starving + exagerate cardio and even if they stay in ipocaloric + exercise the weight loss is basically inexistent or extremely slow, the body want you to survive so it enter a state of absolute conservation.
Maybe they can lose 10-15 pounds of water initially but then the metabolism slow to a crawl.

It's not even super rare, many people at the gym (especially women) do this mistake.

Many times these people start losing weight again when they start eating more.

The human body is extremely complicated.

It's the opposite, people overcomplicate something which is simple. The underlying rule is no magic is involved. Humans need energy. The human brain requires about 20 watts of energy. If you don't have enough energy over a long enough period of time you will die. It's true that if you reduce calories your metabolism will drop for survival reasons but you will still lose weight if you take in less energy than the body requires to function. You will conserve water more if you drink less but there is still a point at which you will run out of water and die. A more fuel efficient car will go for longer on less fuel but it will still run out of fuel at some point. Humans still obey the fundamental laws and are not capable of perpetual motion. All a diet should be is an envelope with a note in it saying stop being an idiot but obviously that won't make money.

 

[GymWolf]

It's the opposite, people overcomplicate something which is simple. The underlying rule is no magic is involved. Humans need energy. The human brain requires about 20 watts of energy. If you don't have enough energy over a long enough period of time you will die. It's true that if you reduce calories your metabolism will drop for survival reasons but you will still lose weight if you take in less energy than the body requires to function. You will conserve water more if you drink less but there is still a point at which you will run out of water and die. A more fuel efficient car will go for longer on less fuel but it will still run out of fuel at some point. Humans still obey the fundamental laws and are not capable of perpetual motion. All a diet should be is an envelope with a note in it saying stop being an idiot but obviously that won't make money.

I think the human body IS complicated, it's not just 2+2=4 or we would not have diets and trainings regiments that work great for some and not so great for others, even in this very topic.

I personally know many personal trainer that had clients with such a low metabolism that weight loss was basically stopped until they fixed the metabolism.

Of course you continue to lose weight if you have a a low metabolism, and eat 500 calories total and do 2 hours of cardio everyday, but you are losing your life more than just weight.

So fixing metabolism is the first step for many people, because believe it or not, doing all that sacrifice and losing half a pound per month because your metabolism in fucked is something that nobody wants.

What you say is right, i was just talking about some specific cases that are less rare than you think especially if you have been around gyms for 20 years.

People overcomplicate a lot, true, but if you think about it, starving and doing cardio seems the most logic thing to do for the average fat joe for losing weight, actually eating a bit more and putting muscles is counterintuitive for many people, especially after decades of brainwashing from tv and youtubers.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

My gym machines only go up to 15 %.

Ass of Can Whooping how many times a week do you do this. And can we see your calves?

Three days. It's my standard cardio activity now before I do upper body weights. I finish the week with a leg day and then three days rest.

I'll even let your gay ass cop a feel

 

[DavidGzz]

I think the human body IS complicated, it's not just 2+2=4 or we would not have diets and trainings regiments that work great for some and not so great for others, even in this very topic.

I personally know many personal trainer that had clients with such a low metabolism that weight loss was basically stopped until they fixed the metabolism.

Of course you continue to lose weight if you have a a low metabolism, and eat 500 calories total and do 2 hours of cardio everyday, but you are losing your life more than just weight.

So fixing metabolism is the first step for many people, because believe it or not, doing all that sacrifice and losing half a pound per month because your metabolism in fucked is something that nobody wants.

What you say is right, i was just talking about some specific cases that are less rare than you think especially if you have been around gyms for 20 years.

People overcomplicate a lot, true, but if you think about it, starving and doing cardio seems the most logic thing to do for the average fat joe for losing weight, actually eating a bit more and putting muscles is counterintuitive for many people, especially after decades of brainwashing from tv and youtubers.

It is THAT simple. But it isn't easy. Different things work for different people because of how preferences work. We also have different levels of patience, adherence, discipline. The snakeoils salesmen want you to believe it's complicated so that they can sell you books on blood types diets(lmao, this is real), insulin control diet books, etc. Guess what worked for all 300 actors in the movie 300? The same diet and workouts. Guess what worked for all the people in the holocaust to die of starvation? Starvation. Too soon?

It's like the people who haves PCOS making excuses for not being able to lose weight. Or that show that has people swear up and down they eat 1200 calories and a lot of exercise but can't lose weight. They use doubly labeled water that can tell scientists what their exact intake is. People simply under report intake (by over 50%) and overestimate activity.

BTW, no one has such an efficient body that they only need 500 calories. No one. 1200 at the absolute lowest and that person doesn't need to lose any weight.

 

[GymWolf]

It is THAT simple. But it isn't easy. Different things work for different people because of how preferences work. We also have different levels of patience, adherence, discipline. The snakeoils salesmen want you to believe it's complicated so that they can sell you books on blood types diets(lmao, this is real), insulin control diet books, etc. Guess what worked for all 300 actors in the movie 300? The same diet and workouts. Guess what worked for all the people in the holocaust to die of starvation? Starvation. Too soon?

It's like the people who haves PCOS making excuses for not being able to lose weight. Or that show that has people swear up and down they eat 1200 calories and a lot of exercise but can't lose weight. They use doubly labeled water that can tell scientists what their exact intake is. People simply under report intake (by over 50%) and overestimate activity.

BTW, no one has such an efficient body that they only need 500 calories. No one. 1200 at the absolute lowest and that person doesn't need to lose any weight.

The 500 calories was an extreme example to say that of course if you are on huge, unhealty caloric deficit plus a huge amount of cardio you are still gonna lose weiit, but it would not be sustainable so it is better to eat a bit more and fix the metabolism instead of going even lower with the calories.

I also don't believe in oil snake sailsman so not sure from where your post come from, did i said to people to buy any supplement or try a specific diet? i don't think so.

I just don't ignore how all bodies are not the same or that metabolism can slow weight loss to a crawl in some cases. (slowing doesn't mean stopping).

 

[DavidGzz]

The 500 calories was an extreme example of course

I also don't believe in oil snake sailsman so not sure from where your post come from, did i said to people to buy any supplement or try a specific diet? i don't think so.

But ignoring how all bodies are not the same or that metabolism can slow weight loss to a crawl is also pretty superficial if you ask me.

Given the same body weight, activity level, and muscle mass we vary very little in our caloric burn. It just wouldn't make sense if we did. The greatest variance we have would be our daily jobs. Even 1 hour of weightlifting is nothing compared to 8-12 hours of activity or lack of activity. What I meant by snake oil in this case is telling people their metabolism can vary so much that tissue loss just stops. Some will do this promising some kind of metabolism "hack". You don't just get away with running on vastly less energy.

Variability in energy expenditure and its components - PubMed

Resting metabolic rate, diet-induced thermogenesis, exercise energy expenditure, and 24 h energy expenditure are highly reproducible. Coefficient of variation is smallest for exercise energy expenditure, followed by resting metabolic rate, 24 h energy expenditure, and diet-induced thermogenesis...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Summary: Resting metabolic rate, diet-induced thermogenesis, exercise energy expenditure, and 24 h energy expenditure are highly reproducible. Coefficient of variation is smallest for exercise energy expenditure, followed by resting metabolic rate, 24 h energy expenditure, and diet-induced thermogenesis. There is considerable variability in total daily energy expenditure, largely due to variations in nonexercise activity. Although the factors that impact upon nonexercise activity are understood, their contribution to variation in total daily energy expenditure is unclear."

What a lot of people do when dieting and hitting a "plateau" is that they don't change anything over time. When you become smaller and lighter, your energy needs go down obviously. You're moving less weight around daily. They also lose muscle mass if they are restricting calories too much without enough protein and resistance training slowing their burn down even further.

 

[GymWolf]

Given the same body weight, activity level, and muscle mass we vary very little in our caloric burn. It just wouldn't make sense if we did. The greatest variance we have would be our daily jobs. Even 1 hour of weightlifting is nothing compared to 8-12 hours of activity or lack of activity. What I meant by snake oil in this case is telling people their metabolism can vary so much that tissue loss just stops. Some will do this promising some kind of metabolism "hack". You don't just get away with running on vastly less energy.

Variability in energy expenditure and its components - PubMed

Resting metabolic rate, diet-induced thermogenesis, exercise energy expenditure, and 24 h energy expenditure are highly reproducible. Coefficient of variation is smallest for exercise energy expenditure, followed by resting metabolic rate, 24 h energy expenditure, and diet-induced thermogenesis...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Summary: Resting metabolic rate, diet-induced thermogenesis, exercise energy expenditure, and 24 h energy expenditure are highly reproducible. Coefficient of variation is smallest for exercise energy expenditure, followed by resting metabolic rate, 24 h energy expenditure, and diet-induced thermogenesis. There is considerable variability in total daily energy expenditure, largely due to variations in nonexercise activity. Although the factors that impact upon nonexercise activity are understood, their contribution to variation in total daily energy expenditure is unclear."

What a lot of people do when dieting and hitting a "plateau" is that they don't change anything over time. When you become smaller and lighter, your energy needs go down obviously. You're moving less weight around daily. They also lose muscle mass if they are restricting calories too much without enough protein and resistance training slowing their burn down even further.

Usually the only metabolism hack i heard from personal trainers i know is just eating more, doing less cardio and start weight training, that's why i don't really consider that oil snake sailsman, they are just good advices.

They don't try to sell nothing, but i'm sure there is people who does that, but i can't speak for things that i dind't personally experienced, even the channels on youtube that i follow just give these type of advices, it's never to sell something.

 

[DavidGzz]

Usually the only metabolism hack i heard from personal trainers i know is just eating more, doing less cardio and start weight training, that's why i don't really consider that oil snake sailsman, they are just good advices.

They don't try to sell nothing, but i'm sure there is people who does that, but i can't speak for things that i dind't personally experienced, even the channels on youtube that i follow just give these type of advices, it's never to sell something.

Yeah a diet break can definitely help especially mentally but I'm just saying there's no starvation mode where your metabolism slows to a crawl. Just cortisol, water retention, impatience, and wild claims.

 

[Loope]

Bruhs

It's a 20% incline. Its not difficult for me anymore but pick some random guy on the street to do it and they're probably dead within 15 minutes

Yes that's burning 1000 hour (obviously not factoring weight differences, but for mine it does)

Yeah, 20% is not easy. It's climbing 20 cm in 1 meter. It's difficult to understand without seeing it.

 

[DavidGzz]

I think the current medications that force people to barely eat are just another way of proving that there's no starvation mode, these people are eating so little that they're wasting away their fat and muscle and they keep losing weight.

 

[GymWolf]

I don't fully agree on the fact that low metabolysm is impossible but i agree that many people who claim low metabolism just make some errors in their diet\training dictated by lack of will.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

For laughs, one time at work I did my own version of that high school kid who trolled everyone saying dihydrogen oxide is bad for the world (water).

I told people they were so right that these gummie bears I eat (I love candy like that and would bring them in all the time). I made a list of all the chemicals and shit in it and said you guys were totally right. Look at all the bad chems in it.

They all told me akin to “told you so. Candy has tons of chemicals you can’t even pronounce”. Yada, yada…. Like they’re all food experts.

Then I trolled them back saying this chemical breakdown is for an orange!

They basically told me to fuck right off. Lol. You had to be there, but it was hilarious.

 

[Eiknarf]

Everyone is different… and it’s because of your gut and the bacteria NOT in it!!

It’s not just “calories in vs calories out”, otherwise Lizzo would be thin cause she diets, Exercises and is still obese as fuck

Yeah, she prob damaged the necessary bacteria in her gut from the eating habits she started as a child, but, it’s still not as simple as “eat less and lose weight”

Three people could eat the exact same thing and one will lose weight, one will stay the same, and the third will gain weight.

It’s also about the gut

 

[GymWolf]

StreetsofBeige Ironically, many bodybuilders use candies like gummy bears or fuzzy peaches as fast carb for the intra workout

 

[StreetsofBeige]

StreetsofBeige Ironically, many bodybuilders use candies like gummy bears or fuzzy peaches as fast carb for the intra workout

I swear. Any of those gelatin junk like that or wine gums. I can eat a whole tub of that in one sitting. Lol

 

[GymWolf]

I swear. Any of those gelatin junk like that or wine gums. I can eat a whole tub of that in one sitting. Lol

I have more of a salty palate, but i don't disdain some haribo eggs or licorice rolls sometimes.

If if have to chose how to waste calories, i almost always go for something salty.

 

[Rentahamster]

 

[bitbydeath]

Everyone is different… and it’s because of your gut and the bacteria NOT in it!!

It’s not just “calories in vs calories out”, otherwise Lizza would be thin cause she diets, Exercises and is still obese as fuck

Yeah, she prob damaged the necessary bacteria in her gut from the eating habits she started as a child, but, it’s still not as simple as “eat less and lose weight”

Three people could eat the exact same thing and one will lose weight, one will stay the same, and the third will gain weight.

It’s also about the gut

Maybe her diets consists of 10 buckets of KFC a day?

 

[Raven117]

The “starvation” mode just means that the body actually becomes extremely good at utilizing each and every calorie. Weight loss slows to a crawl because your body is getting better and better at squeezing all the energy out of each calorie. (Ie, it’s lowering the calorie requirement to run the systems). Of course there is a limit to this. This becomes even more brutal if you do it so long, you lose muscle.

I know this all too well. I did it. I’m 6’5” and got down to 162 pounds. Had an 8 pack, and was a still working out 5 times a week. Couldn’t lift a butter knife, but I had that 8 pack. I was eating only about 1200-1800 calories a day

Now, for the last year and a half, I’ve gone the other way. Started gaining a pound a week and lifting heavy. Im now 235. Pretty strong (nothing to marvel at, but im well over a 1000 total). I gained a pound a week barely eating 2800 calories a day. (The online calorie calculators say I would need about 3300-3500 just to maintain).

Point being, yes you can Jack up your metabolism. (And it’s still as simple as calories in calories out).

 

[Putonahappyface]

Best exercise for abs right there.

Too bad 80% of the people do it wrong

I used to do cable crunches with the entire stack until I discovered rollouts. Holy shit those kill!

 

[Putonahappyface]

Bands are great. Use them all the time for rehab when I fuck myself up

I do dead hangs for a minute and use bands before every workout to warm up and I haven't had any injuries touch wood. Great injury preventive that I seldomly see people do unfortunately.

 

[touchfuzzy]

Exercise will help too though, and is also good for you in many other ways.

 

[bitbydeath]

Exercise will help too though, and is also good for you in many other ways.

Yep, I’ll be getting back into exercise today.
Down to 84.8KG now, almost at the 6KG loss mark.

 

[Ovek]

Loosing weight doesn’t have to be a complicated thing.

Step 1: Stop eating and drinking shit, eat some fruit for fuck sake your body will thank you.
Step 2: Move your fat ass. No one is asking you to do an hour of intensive hiit classes everyday, go for a fucking walk.
Step 3: Don’t weigh yourself everyday or even once a week it’s not productive. Base your weight loss on how your clothes fit. Are they more comfortable and loose? Well done you have lost weight, keep it up.

Another hint, don’t drink protein shakes because “that’s what gym bros do after the gym”, see step 1.

 

[DavidGzz]

Everyone is different… and it’s because of your gut and the bacteria NOT in it!!

It’s not just “calories in vs calories out”, otherwise Lizzo would be thin cause she diets, Exercises and is still obese as fuck

Yeah, she prob damaged the necessary bacteria in her gut from the eating habits she started as a child, but, it’s still not as simple as “eat less and lose weight”

Three people could eat the exact same thing and one will lose weight, one will stay the same, and the third will gain weight.

It’s also about the gut

This is my equivalent of a flat farther. This is my realm baby, Lizzo is fat AF cause she eats way too much. It's physics. Put her in a hospital bed with Dr. Now and she'd melt away.

 

[Eiknarf]

This is my equivalent of a flat farther. This is my realm baby, Lizzo is fat AF cause she eats way too much. It's physics. Put her in a hospital bed with Dr. Now and she'd melt away.

A. Do some fuckin research on the gut and how it effects weight.
You don’t even have to do the research. There’s an entire Netflix documentary on it that came out two months ago. It’s been known for about 15 years now.
B. I’m not a Lizzo defender.
Yeah, she ate like a beached whale through her early life and now she’s paying the price- but now she CLAIMS she doesn’t eat like that anymore yet she can’t lose the weight. Whatever! She’s just an example. Calm down.
C. Yeah, 80% of the time humans eat, we’re not clinically “hungry”
We eat out of boredom. We eat for the dopamine effect. We eat because “yeah I can eat”. We eat because shit tastes awesome. But rarely because we’re legit hungry.

 

[DavidGzz]

A. Do some fuckin research on the gut and how it effects weight.
You don’t even have to do the research. There’s an entire Netflix documentary on it that came out two months ago. It’s been known for about 15 years now.
B. I’m not a Lizzo defender.
Yeah, she ate like a beached whale through her early life and now she’s paying the price- but now she CLAIMS she doesn’t eat like that anymore yet she can’t lose the weight. Whatever! She’s just an example. Calm down.
C. Yeah, 80% of the time humans eat, we’re not clinically “hungry”
We eat out of boredom. We eat for the dopamine effect. We eat because “yeah I can eat”. We eat because shit tastes awesome. But rarely because we’re legit hungry.

Nah, like I said, in a controlled environment she'd melt away. She's eating too much. Now, if her gut is making her extra hungry, that's one thing, but she is still taking in that energy. She doesn't have a super efficient body. That thing takes energy to move and even rest. Way more than my body does. It's physics.

And have you not read the thread? I've been providing plenty of links to back what I say. Show me a pubmed study proving this? No? Then keep spouting, I read about this daily. I've seen these claims but so far they've been as much BS as the insulin hypotheses.

 

[Eiknarf]

Nah, like I said, in a controlled environment she'd melt away. She's eating too much. Now, if her gut is making her extra hungry, that's one thing, but she is still taking in that energy. She doesn't have a super efficient body. That thing takes energy to move and even rest. Way more than my body does. It's physics.

And have you not read the thread? I've been providing plenty of links to back what I say. Show me a pubmed study proving this? No? Then keep spouting, I read about this daily. I've seen these claims but so far they've been as much BS as the insulin hypotheses.

Your links are legit
I’m just adding that the microbiome also has an effect on weight (and most things related to the body)

 

[DavidGzz]

Your links are legit
I’m just adding that the microbiome also has an effect on weight (and most things related to the body)

Not to the point where they would erase large swaths of calories in or out. If this were true it would shake up the whole dieting world and would be reported by hundreds of reputable YouTube channels. I'll wait for Jeff Nippard, doctor Israetel, pubmed, etc to report on it. I do think that certain things can affect our behavior making bulking or cutting easier for people, but not magic.

 

[Valedix]

Well this thread inspired me to lose 5kg. Being 31 and 91kg myself I figured it was best to start with a small goal to see if I can achieve it. 1900 calories/day and lots of walking.

 

[bitbydeath]

Well this thread inspired me to lose 5kg. Being 31 and 91kg myself I figured it was best to start with a small goal to see if I can achieve it. 1900 calories/day and lots of walking.

Protein helps you fill up faster which is why I have the protein yoghurts. Have a bit of it every few mins when you’re not starving and it can get you through the morning without feeling hungry.

 

[Boralf]

Protein helps you fill up faster which is why I have the protein yoghurts. Have a bit of it every few mins when you’re not starving and it can get you through the morning without feeling hungry.

You can't be serious.

 

[DavidGzz]

You can't be serious.

Why can't he be? Greek yogurt is my go to.

 

[cash_longfellow]

Absolutely…you can just fast without a lick of exercise and lose weight. Not healthy, but it works. As long as there is a deficit, you are losing weight, regardless of metabolism or anything else. Everything else just determines how fast you lose it.

 

[cash_longfellow]

You can't be serious.

Why not serious. If you are using something that tells your brain you are full and not hungry, how is that not helpful?

 

[cash_longfellow]

Why can't he be? Greek yogurt it my go to.

I hate Greek yogurt with a passion, but poster definitely isn’t wrong.

 

[bitbydeath]

You can't be serious.

It’s working for me. Which part are you doubting?

 

[DaciaJC]

It’s working for me. Which part are you doubting?

He's dumbfounded such a product exists, like it's too good to be true!

 

[Raven117]

Loosing weight doesn’t have to be a complicated thing.

Step 1: Stop eating and drinking shit, eat some fruit for fuck sake your body will thank you.
Step 2: Move your fat ass. No one is asking you to do an hour of intensive hiit classes everyday, go for a fucking walk.
Step 3: Don’t weigh yourself everyday or even once a week it’s not productive. Base your weight loss on how your clothes fit. Are they more comfortable and loose? Well done you have lost weight, keep it up.

Another hint, don’t drink protein shakes because “that’s what gym bros do after the gym”, see step 1.

What’s that about protein shakes? If you need calories and protein (And don’t have the time or convenience to eat) they are very useful.

 

[RaduN]

What’s that about protein shakes? If you need calories and protein (And don’t have the time or convenience to eat) they are very useful.

After a certain point, they are virtually mandatory for your daily protein intake (imo). Eating sufficient animal protein (when you try to naturally maintain quite a bit of lean muscle) from solid food, is way too much of a stress for the stomach.

I'd personally recommend protein shakes in their diet to anyone, at any level of fitness.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

What's all your opinion on drinking milk? Skim, 1%, 2% etc.....?

It's got calcium and all the vitamins and shit. But also a lot of calories on a per ML basis. Really no different than drinking pop if you drink 1% or 2% like I do.

 

[Raven117]

After a certain point, they are virtually mandatory for your daily protein intake (imo). Eating sufficient animal protein (when you try to naturally maintain quite a bit of lean muscle) from solid food, is way too much of a stress for the stomach.

I'd personally recommend protein shakes in their diet to anyone, at any level of fitness.

Yup. Agreed. Just curious what this yahoo is saying about not drinking then.

As used as a “supplement” they are great. (Want to try and get a lot from animal protein,but need a bit of help hitting the macro)

 

[GymWolf]

After a certain point, they are virtually mandatory for your daily protein intake (imo). Eating sufficient animal protein (when you try to naturally maintain quite a bit of lean muscle) from solid food, is way too much of a stress for the stomach.

I'd personally recommend protein shakes in their diet to anyone, at any level of fitness.

Agree, not everyone has the hunger/time to eat a certain amount of protein from lean sources everyday, it's a matter of convenience.

 

[DavidGzz]

What's all your opinion on drinking milk? Skim, 1%, 2% etc.....?

It's got calcium and all the vitamins and shit. But also a lot of calories on a per ML basis. Really no different than drinking pop if you drink 1% or 2% like I do.

It's fine. I just had some with some Ghost protein cereal. It's funny how when you're in the zone, protein cereal and bars taste so good.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

I prefer to just use somehting like huel now rather than protein shakes. Don't need to piss around for lunch and it covers your base for most of the other macros/micros you need.

 

[GymWolf]

A huel?

I bet he fill ya with his macro juice all day long...

(No but seriously what the fuck is a huel?)

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

A huel?

I bet he fill ya with his macro juice all day long...

I do like the chocolate flavour

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

(No but seriously what the fuck is a huel?)

Powdered meal replacement. Add water or milk like you would with protein shakes. It's less protein overall but you get the fats, carbs + all the other micros.

It's ultra processed so i'm sure it's scares the shit out of people like Boralf

 

[GymWolf]

Powdered meal replacement. Add water or milk like you would with protein shakes. It's less protein overall but you get the fats, carbs + all the other micros.

It's ultra processed so i'm sure it's scares the shit out of people like Boralf

I think they were called gainers like 10 years ago.

Meh, never being hot about gainers, it's hard to eat huge amount of proteins from clean sources but it's not that difficult to get carbs and fats from healthy sources so i don't need powders for those.

It's probably way faster and convenient than eating whole food, but i'm not sure about the quality of the macros inside a gainer tho.
Whey powders have the highest quality tier possible but i don't trust what carbs and especially fats are inside these gainers.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

I think they were called gainers like 10 years ago.

Meh, never being hot about gainers, it's hard to eat huge amount of proteins from clean sources but it's not that difficult to get carbs and fats from healthy sources so i don't need powders for those.

It's probably way faster and convenient than eating whole food, but i'm not sure about the quality of the macros inside a gainer tho.
Whey powders have the highest quality tier possible but i don't trust what carbs and especially fats are inside these gainers.

They're much better now. Gainers I wouldn't really call meal replacements anywho. You don't get the nutrients you need out of a gainer like you would with something like huel.

But yeah, its litterally just a way for me to skip having to make something healthy for lunch + a protein shake on top of that.