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[justchris]

On the other hand, if Nintendo is fine with the state of 3D Mario from a creative and sales standpoint, more power to them. As long as they don't keep pumping out direct sequels to Galaxy but make each episode unique, I'm fine with it. If it's the case, then I suspect, like I said earlier (and charlequin agreed with it), that Galaxy 2 was made as a way to keep the fans happy or whatever. I just wish they had spent their energy on a new 3D Mario (as in, not a Galaxy sequel), but that's just me . I don't think it's too unreasonable to expect considering it's the standard they'd set up until SMG2.

I understand your point, but I think you're forgetting something. SMG2 is the first time that more than one 3D Mario Platformer has been released on a single system. I think it was perfectly fine for them to do a followup to a well received game on the same system. It makes more sense to wait for the Super Wii for them to reinvent 3D Mario, like they did going from SM64 -> SMS & SMS -> SMG. Any effort they made on a brand new 3D Mario would not have affected Galaxy one way or the other. Like I said above, they still had ideas left over from the original game, which is what started them working on it in the first place. At it had a reasonable expectation of profit, so they weren't wasting resources, so why not do it if that's what they want to do?

2D Mario games sell 4-6 million in Japan. 3D Mario games sell around 1 to 1.5 million.

You don't think it's valid or worth looking at all the ways in which those games differ in determining why they sell the way they do?

For the record, I don't really find the "complaints" much of a hindrance to the game. I'm just trying my best to reconcile why 2D Mario is quadruply popular to 3D Mario. Sure it's not just about the games themselves, there are other factors at work.

But you say it's "just the camera" and I disagree. And a few people disagreeing with me in this thread is not "literally no on ever agreeing with me".

It's worth talking about, but most of your points don't really make any sense. As for the camera and control complaints, Nintendo did a survey themselves and discovered that a large majority of people in Japan find 3D gaming disorienting. It's a documented issue (and if I wasn't at work, and trying to do any research on 3D brings up pages worth of 3DS and PS3 3D reports, I'd point you to it), and applies to all 3D action games, not just Mario and Platformers. There is a built in cap to what these games can sell, and Nintendo's marketing and efforts have been to try to get people over their issues, because, short of taking the 3D out, none of the changes you suggest are going to do anything for the vast majority of potential consumers.

 

[Jokeropia]

"Change it to be more like 2D Mario"? Shouldn't the question be, why did they "change 2D Mario to be fully explorable 3D" to begin with?

Joshua and Dalthien already answered this, but I just wanna say that this question is irrelevant now seing as 2D Mario still exists as 2D Mario.

 

[BowieZ]

Joshua and Dalthien already answered this, but I just wanna say that this question is irrelevant now seing as 2D Mario still exists as 2D Mario.

No it's not.

 

[Jokeropia]

No it's not.

Yes it is. 2D Mario fans have 2D Mario games and 3D Mario fans have 3D Mario games. Fans of both have both. It's perfect.

 

[Takao]

Medabots DS I was hoping for more than that...

 

[Kurosaki Ichigo]

Soo...do we agree predicting on Xenoblade and PS3/360 GTA Episodes? (would use famitsu azalyn leak if gta misses MC top10)

 

[BowieZ]

Yes it is. 2D Mario fans have 2D Mario games and 3D Mario fans have 3D Mario games. Fans of both have both. It's perfect.

Firstly, maybe many Mario fans are not satisfied entirely by either "genre" and the dichotomy that separates them? 3D fans still play the 2D games and bitch about them, and 2D fans still play the 3D games and bitch about them. But eh, obviously this is too anecdotal to really discuss.

But secondly, this argument isn't about what FANS want. The argument is relevant (whether you agree or not with the premise of the argument), because the split from 2D to 3D has caused a drop in sales for the 3D titles (I think we all agree on that, right? whether it's the camera or whatever).

Between 1985 and 1992 -- eight years -- there was SMB1, SMB2/USA, SMB3, SML and SMW, which were hugely popular and sold extremely well reaping massive sales.

Between 1992 and 2010 -- nineteen years -- there were basically as many mainline Mario platformers (six, including four 3D Mario titles) and only two of them sold as well as the above did (NSMB and NSMBW). (Yes, SM64 and SMG1 still sold tremendously well by industry standards.)

The first question is, were all four of those 3D Mario titles in fact 2D, would they have sold the 20 million+ worldwide or whathaveyou? One obviously acknowledges that sales especially stateside may have lagged because 2D games in the last decade and a half would have been seen as outdated, lazy, whatever. Fine. You can't change history, and Nintendo went with technology at the time, with 3D, fine.

But the other question is, was the switch to 3D, to "fully explorable worlds" where you collect stars, and there's no map, and all sorts of game design changes from SMB1/3/SMW, ... was that the only solution after going 3D? Could a different solution to the incorporation of three dimensions, perhaps still more closely following the design of SMB1, helped sustain sales especially in Japan?

Again, you can't change history, but that's the question I'm most interested in, especially since it applies still to this day. Nintendo is still making Mario games and still grappling with possibilities in terms of dimensions and game design. Will we forever more see a continuation of the 2D and 3D dichotomy? We may. I may be totally insane (well, yes, I am, it's obvious), but I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo has surprises up its sleeve in terms of this very question.

Yes, most of you may not agree with me, although I do think for the most part that we have been speaking at cross purposes.

 

[jj984jj]

Soo...do we agree predicting on Xenoblade and PS3/360 GTA Episodes? (would use famitsu azalyn leak if gta misses MC top10)

Wouldn't Rockman Zero Collection be a better pick than GTA 360?

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

But the other question is, was the switch to 3D, to "fully explorable worlds" where you collect stars, and there's no map, and all sorts of game design changes from SMB1/3/SMW, ... was that the only solution after going 3D? Could a different solution to the incorporation of three dimensions, perhaps still more closely following the design of SMB1, helped sustain sales especially in Japan?

Again, you can't change history, but that's the question I'm most interested in, especially since it applies still to this day. Nintendo is still making Mario games and still grappling with possibilities in terms of dimensions and game design. Will we forever more see a continuation of the 2D and 3D dichotomy? We may. I may be totally insane (well, yes, I am, it's obvious), but I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo has surprises up its sleeve in terms of this very question.

I'm sure they'll continue all sorts of twists to the formula. But I don't think dichotomy is quite the right word. A big thing I love about the "New" and "Galaxy" games is that they each definitely take the older 2D and 3D (respectively) games as a root, but try to bring in elements from the other rather than merely being distant cousin series. New gains things like wall jumping and butt-stomping, Galaxy goes for a larger number of stages with more linear paths.

What's next? Who knows.

 

[BowieZ]

I'm sure they'll continue all sorts of twists to the formula. But I don't think dichotomy is quite the right word. A big thing I love about the "New" and "Galaxy" games is that they each definitely take the older 2D and 3D (respectively) games as a root, but try to bring in elements from the other rather than merely being distant cousin series. New gains things like wall jumping and butt-stomping, Galaxy goes for a larger number of stages with more linear paths.

That is indeed true. That's definitely an attempt to make fans of one control system feel more at home in the other. And it certainly helped pay dividends with NSMBW's sales (I'm sure most Galaxy 1 fans were relatively comfortable in buying and playing that game), and only time will tell whether the reverse helps to pay dividends for SMG2, although it certainly seems it by the look of it.

 

[fernoca]

Another point would be..outside Super Mario Galaxy, which other 3D games sell less than Mario 2D games in Japan...or just as much.

The way I see it, Mario Galaxy games sell on par with the best selling 3D games, or better in many cases...so don't know why there's a need of like; looking for ways for Nintendo to make Mario 3D games sell even more, because of 2D ones selling 3-4 million copies over there, when there are no other 3D games over there that sell 3-4 million copies.

 

[Kurosaki Ichigo]

Wouldn't Rockman Zero Collection be a better pick than GTA 360?

Well, we can include both, there's no huge sellers so differences will be pretty small. Personally, I thought Rockman Zero Collection was going to be pretty small (barely top30) but the latest comgnet update has it at 31pt (for reference, GTA PS3 58pt, Xenoblade 51pt, no GTA 360) so it could very well break into top10. We'll use famitsu leak if somethings misses it anyway, its been pretty reliable time-wise.

 

[BowieZ]

Another point would be..outside Super Mario Galaxy, which other 3D games sell less than Mario 2D games in Japan...or just as much.

The way I see it, Mario Galaxy games sell on par with the best selling 3D games, or better in many cases...so don't know why there's a need of like; looking for ways for Nintendo to make Mario 3D games sell even more, because of 2D ones selling 3-4 million copies over there, when there are no other 3D games over there that sell 3-4 million copies.

Well it's not so much about "trying to get it to sell more" as it is a philosophical pipe-dream about determining if there really are certain barriers-of-entry that needlessly put off millions of potential players/buyers. If correcting those barriers would in turn put off millions of current players/buyers, then obviously it's not something that needs or is worth fixing, but if it has a net gain effect, then it's worth it.

 

[Jokeropia]

But the other question is, was the switch to 3D, to "fully explorable worlds" where you collect stars, and there's no map, and all sorts of game design changes from SMB1/3/SMW, ... was that the only solution after going 3D? Could a different solution to the incorporation of three dimensions, perhaps still more closely following the design of SMB1, helped sustain sales especially in Japan?

First of all, I don't think there's any way around the fact that in order to make it less intimidating especially for the Japanese market you'd have to de-emphasize the use of 3D gameplay. This would lessen the appeal for a lot of 3D Mario fans, and furthermore make it compete more directly with 2D Mario obstructing releases of the two franchises from taking place in such short succession as we see with NSMB Wii and SMG2. As it is now, Nintendo have two separate franchises that sell ~20 million and ~10 million respectively per release. Making them too similar to each other would likely cause more overlap and lessen their combined reach.

 

[Chris1964]

Well, we can include both, there's no huge sellers so differences will be pretty small. Personally, I thought Rockman Zero Collection was going to be pretty small (barely top30) but the latest comgnet update has it at 31pt (for reference, GTA PS3 58pt, Xenoblade 51pt, no GTA 360) so it could very well break into top10. We'll use famitsu leak if somethings misses it anyway, its been pretty reliable time-wise.

Looking at comgnet White Knight Chronicles 2 is still very low (less thah half preorders the first had 1 month before its release). There is a possibility the quality of the original affects the sequel.

Inazuma Eleven 3 on the other hand is skyrocking. 2,5 times up comparing to 2.

I wanna see if my prediction for IE3 comes true.

 

[Kurosaki Ichigo]

Will all 4 reach 100k combined? Tune in 10 days!

Prediction League June 7-13
[NDS] Mega Man Zero Collection (Capcom) -
[WII] Xenoblade (Nintendo) -
[PS3] Grand Theft Auto IV: Episodes from Liberty City (Rockstar Games) -
[360] Grand Theft Auto IV: Episodes from Liberty City (Rockstar Games) -

 

[BowieZ]

obstructing releases of the two franchises from taking place in such short succession as we see with NSMB Wii and SMG2.

But that's a rarity. Nothing wrong with Nintendo alternating between releasing a 2D Mario that is more inspired by 3D on 3DS and a 3D Mario that is more inspired by 2D design on the home console. There are many other franchises that they can use the standard 3D explorer/collect-a-thon formula for.

 

[charlequin]

Firstly, maybe many Mario fans are not satisfied entirely by either "genre" and the dichotomy that separates them?

Nope.

But eh, obviously this is too anecdotal to really discuss.

Yep.

The argument is relevant (whether you agree or not with the premise of the argument), because the split from 2D to 3D has caused a drop in sales for the 3D titles

Nope.

Will we forever more see a continuation of the 2D and 3D dichotomy?

Yep.

 

[AceBandage]

Will all 4 reach 100k combined? Tune in 10 days!

Prediction League June 7-13
[NDS] Mega Man Zero Collection (Capcom) -
[WII] Xenoblade (Nintendo) -
[PS3] Grand Theft Auto IV: Episodes from Liberty City (Rockstar Games) -
[360] Grand Theft Auto IV: Episodes from Liberty City (Rockstar Games) -

Combined?
It'll be close.

[NDS] Mega Man Zero Collection (Capcom) - 5K
[WII] Xenoblade (Nintendo) - 60K
[PS3] Grand Theft Auto IV: Episodes from Liberty City (Rockstar Games) - 10K
[360] Grand Theft Auto IV: Episodes from Liberty City (Rockstar Games) - 9K

 

[onken]

Jeez, I dunno *picks up darts*

[NDS] Mega Man Zero Collection (Capcom) - 15k
[WII] Xenoblade (Nintendo) - 55k
[PS3] Grand Theft Auto IV: Episodes from Liberty City (Rockstar Games) - 20k
[360] Grand Theft Auto IV: Episodes from Liberty City (Rockstar Games) - 10k

 

[Moor-Angol]

[NDS] Mega Man Zero Collection (Capcom) - 19k
[WII] Xenoblade (Nintendo) - 60k
[PS3] Grand Theft Auto IV: Episodes from Liberty City (Rockstar Games) - 62k
[360] Grand Theft Auto IV: Episodes from Liberty City (Rockstar Games) - 22k

 

[Chris1964]

Some predictions from azalyn

LTD sales
[WII] Xenoblade (Nintendo) - 120k
[PS3] Grand Theft Auto IV: Episodes from Liberty City (Rockstar Games) - 100k
[360] Grand Theft Auto IV: Episodes from Liberty City (Rockstar Games) - 30k
[PS3] Just Cause 2 (Square Enix) - 30k
[360] Just Cause 2 (Square Enix) - 10k

3DS
Release date: November 27, 2010
Price: ¥20.000 including tax

 

[kame-sennin]

Based on empirical data, some games/genres are simply less popular than others for various reasons, and if I'm to speculate I think accessibility is the primary factor in this case. 3D platformer gameplay is more complex and intimidating for inexperienced gamers than 2D gameplay.

Everyone says this, but I'm not sure it's true. It's definitely a factor, but I don't think it really accounts for the disparity in sales. In fact, it comes across as a little condescending, i.e. people don't like Galaxy because they don't understand it. Anecdotally, I know a lot of people who can play 3D Mario, but only get really excited about the 2D games. If you think about it, the games play differently. 2D Mario is a race to the finish line where you kill or avoid every enemy in your way. 3D Mario is more about exploration and puzzles. Miyamoto could probably go to people's houses and teach them how to play Galaxy and it still wouldn't help sales much.

 

[Takao]

[NDS] Mega Man Zero Collection (Capcom) - 12k
[WII] Xenoblade (Nintendo) - 75k
[PS3] Grand Theft Auto IV: Episodes from Liberty City (Rockstar Games) - 30k
[360] Grand Theft Auto IV: Episodes from Liberty City (Rockstar Games) - 13k

 

[BowieZ]

Everyone says this, but I'm not sure it's true. It's definitely a factor, but I don't think it really accounts for the disparity in sales. In fact, it comes across as a little condescending, i.e. people don't like Galaxy because they don't understand it. Anecdotally, I know a lot of people who can play 3D Mario, but only get really excited about the 2D games. If you think about it, the games play differently. 2D Mario is a race to the finish line where you kill or avoid every enemy in your way. 3D Mario is more about exploration and puzzles. Miyamoto could probably go to people's houses and teach them how to play Galaxy and it still wouldn't help sales much.

:lol This can't be happening? Someone is backing me up?

Also, I agree with what you said.

 

[Dalthien]

If you think about it, the games play differently.

That's exactly the point. They are supposed to be different gameplay experiences. 3D Mario and 2D Mario are two different brands. Two different franchises, if you prefer.

Paper Mario, Mario Kart, Smash Bros., Mario Golf, Mario Party... none of these games are supposed to play like 2D Mario. They are different brands. Likewise, 3D Mario is a different brand. By having all these different Mario brands, Nintendo is able to limit each brand to 1 or 2 releases each generation per system, but when they are all combined, it gives them 12 or 15 Mario games per generation. But since they all play differently, it doesn't feel as though Mario games are being run into the ground. This is exactly how Nintendo wants it to be.

Miyamoto could probably go to people's houses and teach them how to play Galaxy and it still wouldn't help sales much.

But the sales don't need help. There will be three 3D Mario games this gen (Mario 64 DS and Galaxy 1+2) and each one will finish up at roughly 10 million sold. Do you realize how few games ever make it to 10 million sold? And 3 separate 3D Mario games will get there (or at least awfully damn close) this gen. The 3D Mario games are hugely successful, massively profitable, and they work in conjunction with 2D Mario - not as a competitor to 2D Mario.

 

[BowieZ]

3D Mario and 2D Mario are two different brands. Two different franchises, if you prefer.

You're saying this like it's a commandment out of heaven and Nintendo is unable to do anything about it. Nintendo experiments all the time: nothing stopping them from making some huge changes in their franchises... and the 3D implementation in the next NSMB 3DS is probably where it starts.

 

[Dalthien]

You're saying this like it's a commandment out of heaven and Nintendo is unable to do anything about it.

I'm saying it because that is what they have done. They have evolved Mario platformers into two separate brands and two extremely lucrative brands (3D Mario and 2D Mario). Somewhere down the road they may even try to expand Mario platforming into a 3rd brand which incorporates another different gameplay style from the two current gameplay styles. Who knows?

But what they certainly don't have any incentive whatsoever to do is to replace their two extremely profitable platforming brands with one hybrid-style brand that can't possibly bring in as much money as the two current brands that already exist.

 

[HK-47]

That's exactly the point. They are supposed to be different gameplay experiences. 3D Mario and 2D Mario are two different brands. Two different franchises, if you prefer.

Paper Mario, Mario Kart, Smash Bros., Mario Golf, Mario Party... none of these games are supposed to play like 2D Mario. They are different brands. Likewise, 3D Mario is a different brand. By having all these different Mario brands, Nintendo is able to limit each brand to 1 or 2 releases each generation per system, but when they are all combined, it gives them 12 or 15 Mario games per generation. But since they all play differently, it doesn't feel as though Mario games are being run into the ground. This is exactly how Nintendo wants it to be.


But the sales don't need help. There will be three 3D Mario games this gen (Mario 64 DS and Galaxy 1+2) and each one will finish up at roughly 10 million sold. Do you realize how few games ever make it to 10 million sold? And 3 separate 3D Mario games will get there (or at least awfully damn close) this gen. The 3D Mario games are hugely successful, massively profitable, and they work in conjunction with 2D Mario - not as a competitor to 2D Mario.

Mario is also helpful for introducing new game ideas since his brand power can get the new game into a lot of hands.

 

[BowieZ]

But what they certainly don't have any incentive whatsoever to do is to replace their two extremely profitable platforming brands with one hybrid-style brand that can't possibly bring in as much money as the two current brands that already exist.

I've never campaigned for an outright cancellation of all 2D Mario games. I think Mario is at home in 2D, but also would be at home in a more "2D-ified" 3D game.

For the sake of argument: there've been four mainline Mario platformers in the last 8 years. If they simply repeated that pattern, it could go like this:

2 year window - 3DS 2D platformer (with 3D vision)
2 year window - WiiHD 3D platformer
2 year window - 3DS 3D platformer (with 3D vision)
2 year window - WiiHD 2D platformer

or something. Four years to wait for a new Mario platformer on your console of choice is pretty respectable.

 

[charlequin]

Everyone says this, but I'm not sure it's true. It's definitely a factor, but I don't think it really accounts for the disparity in sales.

Accessibility -- that is, the ability for parts of the audience to sit down, understand how to play, and find themselves enjoying the title before they stop playing due to frustration/boredom/whatever -- strikes me as one of the very first places to look in explaining such a discrepancy when you've adjusted for brand and platform (as you pretty much have when you're comparing two "Mario" titles on the same system.) If a title is only accessible to 10% of a system's install base, then you're pretty much hard-capped at sales of 10% the install base unless people buy the game by mistake. For a system like the Wii that sells so many titles to a huge swathe of its audience, this strikes me as an extremely important factor.

In fact, it comes across as a little condescending, i.e. people don't like Galaxy because they don't understand it.

3D character platforming is challenging because it rests on a large number of non-entry-level gaming skills: how to manipulate a camera, how to use a joystick to maneuver in a non-fixed plane, how to quickly judge 3D distances via information from a 2D display, how to read environmental cues to determine which direction you neeed to move in to progress, etc. Lots of people have trouble with these not because they're stupid but because they're skills that rely on more basic gaming skills as a base and they haven't learned them, and the amount of effort acquiring them would take would be way outside the bounds of their level of interest in gaming. I don't know why anyone should take as insulting the (fairly straightforward IMO) concept that different games require different levels of built-up skill in different gaming-specific areas, and that the appeal of any given game will be limited by how skill-intensive it is in any of those areas.

(I mean, some people are always going to be huge diaper-babies and complain whenever the distinct level of skill between different individuals is used as an explanation for something's relative appeal, but who cares about those guys)

 

[Stumpokapow]

so since we're still not talking about sales much

Atlus is publishing "Etrian Odyssey III: The Downed City" in North America, dated for Fall 2010. Announced in this month's Nintendo Power. Someone else can make the thread about the announcement.

 

[kame-sennin]

That's exactly the point. They are supposed to be different gameplay experiences. 3D Mario and 2D Mario are two different brands. Two different franchises, if you prefer.

Paper Mario, Mario Kart, Smash Bros., Mario Golf, Mario Party... none of these games are supposed to play like 2D Mario. They are different brands. Likewise, 3D Mario is a different brand. By having all these different Mario brands, Nintendo is able to limit each brand to 1 or 2 releases each generation per system, but when they are all combined, it gives them 12 or 15 Mario games per generation. But since they all play differently, it doesn't feel as though Mario games are being run into the ground. This is exactly how Nintendo wants it to be.

I agree and have no problem with this.

But the sales don't need help. There will be three 3D Mario games this gen (Mario 64 DS and Galaxy 1+2) and each one will finish up at roughly 10 million sold. Do you realize how few games ever make it to 10 million sold? And 3 separate 3D Mario games will get there (or at least awfully damn close) this gen. The 3D Mario games are hugely successful, massively profitable, and they work in conjunction with 2D Mario - not as a competitor to 2D Mario.

That comment was a criticism of the DVD. It's obviously there to increase sales. I don't think it will help.

Accessibility -- that is, the ability for parts of the audience to sit down, understand how to play, and find themselves enjoying the title before they stop playing due to frustration/boredom/whatever -- strikes me as one of the very first places to look in explaining such a discrepancy when you've adjusted for brand and platform (as you pretty much have when you're comparing two "Mario" titles on the same system.) If a title is only accessible to 10% of a system's install base, then you're pretty much hard-capped at sales of 10% the install base unless people buy the game by mistake. For a system like the Wii that sells so many titles to a huge swathe of its audience, this strikes me as an extremely important factor.

It is the first place Nintendo should look, and it is an extremely important factor. But I'm saying that if Nintendo wants to change the situation for 3D Mario, they need to look further.

3D character platforming is challenging because it rests on a large number of non-entry-level gaming skills: how to manipulate a camera, how to use a joystick to maneuver in a non-fixed plane, how to quickly judge 3D distances via information from a 2D display, how to read environmental cues to determine which direction you neeed to move in to progress, etc. Lots of people have trouble with these not because they're stupid but because they're skills that rely on more basic gaming skills as a base and they haven't learned them, and the amount of effort acquiring them would take would be way outside the bounds of their level of interest in gaming. I don't know why anyone should take as insulting the (fairly straightforward IMO) concept that different games require different levels of built-up skill in different gaming-specific areas, and that the appeal of any given game will be limited by how skill-intensive it is in any of those areas.

The issue for me is that again, people point to the accessibility factor and stop there. Without probing deeper, the conventional wisdom settles on "3D Mario doesn't sell as well because they expanded audience doesn't know how to navigate in 3D". The reason why I say it's condescending is because I think there are a lot of people who CAN play 3D games but don't play 3D Mario. The expanded market includes a lot of people who used to play video games but stopped, as well as people who have devoted less and less time to games as they grew older. A lot of these people have the ability to navigate 3D worlds, but they're not excited by SMG.

I fall into this group. I bought the first game and thought it was really interesting, but I put it down about half way through. When NSMBW came out, I realized that I felt differently about 2D Mario than I did about 3D Mario. I simply enjoy it more. Primarily, it has to do with the aradey nature of the gameplay. A lot of people in my peer group are the same way.

 

[charlequin]

so since we're still not talking about sales much

Atlus is publishing "Etrian Odyssey III: The Downed City" in North America, dated for Fall 2010. Announced in this month's Nintendo Power. Someone else can make the thread about the announcement.

Got reported in the EO3 Japan thread about a week ago.

 

[charlequin]

But I'm saying that if Nintendo wants to change the situation for 3D Mario

(which basically everyone sensible in this thread has agreed they do not need or want to do)

The reason why I say it's condescending is because I think there are a lot of people who CAN play 3D games but don't play 3D Mario.

Which we know because of... all those 3D platform games that have outsold SM64 and SMG?

 

[Kilrogg]

(which basically everyone sensible in this thread has agreed they do not need or want to do)

Meh. I agree that they do not need to do it, but not necessarily that they don't want to, nor that they couldn't do it. Then again, I never know if you count me in the "sensible" camp .

At any rate, I thought it's interesting to at least pretend they want to do it and wonder how/if they could pull it off.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Got reported in the EO3 Japan thread about a week ago.

my failure continues to explore the boundaries of what is possible

 

[BowieZ]

(which basically everyone sensible in this thread has agreed they do not need or want to do)

Subtle. But this isn't about whether they need or want to, it's whether they could or should. EDIT: Beaten!

They don't NEED to change the formula. They're a rich company and they profit from the games when all's said and done. Great.

They haven't shown to really WANT to change the formula in the past 15 years, but they may do. Is it a technology thing? Hell, they've started to blend the 2D and 3D formulae, so what's to say it isn't an overarching goal?

They could change it, because they're a rich company and they've profited from all the games they've already released, and because they're Nintendo and they almost always experiment with the formula every time. The dawn of 3DS and Wii2 will be no exception, surely.

Should they change it? Well, it's a risk of course! Yes, some hardcore 3D Mario fans might be put off at first. But maybe it will draw twice as many 2D fans back in? If they manage that, then the regular pattern of 2D and 3D games will profit the company even more.

You don't have to call people senseless because we question "holy commandment" thinking and we disagree with each other.

 

[Chris1964]

Famitsu May sales (26/04/10-30/05/10)

01. [NDS] Dragon Quest Monsters: Joker 2 (Square Enix) - 1.099.283 / NEW
02. [PSP] Metal Gear Solid: Peace Walker (Konami) - 691.072 / NEW
03. [WII] Super Mario Galaxy 2 (Nintendo) - 337.569 / NEW
04. [PS3] Lost Planet 2 (Capcom) - 126.054 / NEW
05. [PS3] Super Street Fighter 4 (Capcom) - 121.154 / NEW
06. [WII] New Super Mario Bros. Wii (Nintendo) - 120.405 / 3.853.126
07. [WII] Mario Kart Wii (Nintendo) - 93.194 / 2.743.368
08. [NDS] Friend Collection (Nintendo) - 88.359 / 3.273.721
09. [WII] Wii Fit Plus (Nintendo) - 86.757 / 1.945.584
10. [NDS] Super Robot Wars OG Saga: Masou Kishin - The Lord of Elemental (Bandai Namco) - 86.105 / NEW

 

[duckroll]

my failure continues to explore the boundaries of what is possible

If it makes you feel any better, just the other day I was talking to charlequin about upcoming releases, and I asked if he thought EO3 would be hitting the US at all. He turn proceeded to inform me that it was already announced. :lol

 

[SirSwirl]

Lots of discussion going on here, great reads too.

As for my input, there really isn't much I can say that has already been said. I agree with BowieZ in that there are more factors than just accessibility, although it's just a matter of how important is it. Obviously the accessibility factor is much more important to getting 3D Marios more popular, but since it's a problem 3D games have had for so long, perhaps in the next Mario games Nintendo could take care of those other issues since they won't be too hard to do and see how that works and work on accessibility while and after doing that.

Why would they do this? I really can't see a reason other than just to reinvent the Mario series and keep it fresh and strong.

 

[Jokeropia]

But that's a rarity. Nothing wrong with Nintendo alternating between releasing a 2D Mario that is more inspired by 3D on 3DS and a 3D Mario that is more inspired by 2D design on the home console. There are many other franchises that they can use the standard 3D explorer/collect-a-thon formula for.

So if they make a game like Galaxy, which franchise should they use instead of Mario? I think this would cost them a lot of 3D Mario fans, and I'm not convinced that "2D Mario that is more inspired by 3D" and "3D Mario that is more inspired by 2D" would be distinct enough to warrant two separate franchises like 3D Mario and 2D Mario in their current form.

 

[Nirolak]

If it makes you feel any better, just the other day I was talking to charlequin about upcoming releases, and I asked if he thought EO3 would be hitting the US at all. He turn proceeded to inform me that it was already announced. :lol

I would have been even better had you been the one to make the thread announcing it beforehand.

 

[Kurosaki Ichigo]

Predictions
[NDS] Mega Man Zero Collection (Capcom) - 24k
[WII] Xenoblade (Nintendo) - 57k
[PS3] Grand Theft Auto IV: Episodes from Liberty City (Rockstar Games) - 67k
[360] Grand Theft Auto IV: Episodes from Liberty City (Rockstar Games) - 19k

 

[Sammy Samusu]

stuff

Totally off-topic (sorry), but your avatar is so cute! *-*

 

[jj984jj]

Predictions
[NDS] Mega Man Zero Collection (Capcom) - 21k
[WII] Xenoblade (Nintendo) - 75k
[PS3] Grand Theft Auto IV: Episodes from Liberty City (Rockstar Games) - 65k
[360] Grand Theft Auto IV: Episodes from Liberty City (Rockstar Games) - 20k

 

[MemoirsofMimi]

[NDS] Mega Man Zero Collection (Capcom) - 18k
[WII] Xenoblade (Nintendo) - 61k
[PS3] Grand Theft Auto IV: Episodes from Liberty City (Rockstar Games) - 57k
[360] Grand Theft Auto IV: Episodes from Liberty City (Rockstar Games) - 21k

 

[duckroll]

Pulling this out of my ass:

[NDS] Mega Man Zero Collection (Capcom) - 18k
[WII] Xenoblade (Nintendo) - 80k
[PS3] Grand Theft Auto IV: Episodes from Liberty City (Rockstar Games) - 55k
[360] Grand Theft Auto IV: Episodes from Liberty City (Rockstar Games) - 18k

 

[Road]

[NDS] Mega Man Zero Collection (Capcom) - 15k
[WII] Xenoblade (Nintendo) - 50k
[PS3] Grand Theft Auto IV: Episodes from Liberty City (Rockstar Games) - 45k
[360] Grand Theft Auto IV: Episodes from Liberty City (Rockstar Games) - 15k

???

 

[m.i.s.]

I understand this, however, there are still many elements that 2D Mario gets "right" so to speak that SMG2 doesn't, and I only say this in terms of how it may be off-putting to larger audiences. (AGAIN - 9 million worldwide for SMG1 is fantastic and AGAIN - it's only an opinion.)

- Starts with story and cutscenes (yes, they're playable cutscenes, yes it's an improvement on SMG1 etc etc), whereas SMB1 puts you in 1-1 immediately, SMB2USA simply lets you choose a character, and SMB3 has an opening title screen that gives you a couple of quick options, and sends you immediately to a very very basic user-friendly map with no tutorials on how to progress every 10 seconds. Seriously, Lubba adds as much hindrance as he does assistance.

- Has a hub. Total waste of time. It was a novelty in SM64 but clearly throws people off. Even the Starship Mario, even if it seems a non-factor to veteran 3D players, it is surely disorienting to the general player. General audiences surely don't have a knee-jerk reaction to jump on the steering wheel of the hub, fly to the world map etc. They would get confused by this added layer, no?

- Has you choosing paths on the hub, on the world map, on the stars you would like to do... too many choices away from pure gameplay.

- Has weakly defined "worlds" with no strong sense of progression. World 1 in SMB3 is Grass Land, you wanna get to the end of Grass Land to the Castle you can see in the corner with the "Help Me!" slogan. World 1 of SMG2 is "The Great Space Adventure Begins!" and you want to... err.. collect stars, that move you forward on this map, to... a dig-themed galaxy... that gives you access to... a cloudy forest... oh, there's a castle up ahead... :/ there is very little overwhelming sense of impetus to move forward, unless you are a seasoned player, appreciate level design, and "can't wait to see what exciting gameplay mechanics are used in the next galaxy!!!!!" -- that isn't normal impetus.

- Similar to the above, game uses star slings to travel between jarringly disconnected level sections (half the time). In the original games, you had pipes and vines, but they directly connected you from one section to the next.

- Flagpoles and a Bowser Castle at the end of every level in SMB1, NSMB DS and NSMBW constantly remind the player that they are on an adventure to beat Bowser. Stars to power a face-shaped spaceship is so abstract, even for Mario universe standards.

- The above points mean that sense of adventure (literal, from one place to the next) is somewhat lost.

- Gameplay is built on bizarre spherical planets, gravity effects, other novel mechanics etc. Yes, these are innovative to seasoned players and critically acclaimed, but are probably confusing to many people. Hey, I have no studies to back this up, I admit that it's an assumption.

My point is that it's possible that Nintendo may want to -- and also that they can -- address these dissimilarities in future Mario games. (My other point is that, if I were them -- and I'm not -- I would still attempt to include explorative elements, just so that they were optional and not at the sacrifice of the streamlined forward moving experience.)

While me arguing this might be insane and hilarious to you, I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who thinks this way. Can we keep the discussion above board without the :lol ?

This is excellent stuff and I fully agree!

What I'd love to see is the purist platforming of the 2D Super Mario games reinvented in 3D. For example, in SMB World 1- Level 3 you have an entire level which involves traversing and jumping across a series of bridges (the entire level is really one long bridge). I'd love to see "levels" like that represented in 3D. Or another example, jumping and traversing the giant mushroom pads in SMB to get to the end of the level. Just purist platforming like that presented in 3D.

The concept of "tasks" to earn a star in the 3D Mario games just doesn't gel in the same way and feels alien to the Super Mario series.