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[Flying_Phoenix]

How exactly has Kirby bombed?

It's done well for the platform its on.

I see Kirby not reaching the heights of its handheld entries as when the portable God of War's fail to match the sales of their console brethren. Apples to oranges.

 

[Cygnus X-1]

If nothing new is announced to follow Skyward Sword, I'll agree. I'm all for moving it to a Fall 2011 (in Japan) launch with Wii 2, though. Motion+ built-in to every controller standard.



My viewpoint may be skewed, but I'd imagine that most people who bought Wii for motion controls are probably fine with the system. Pointer controls being separate. Traditional gamers who bought Wii primarily for motion controls are probably a very small number. *shrugs*

Do you really think that a Wii 2 with Motion plus integrated will be enough to make people switch? I do not think so. This is a normal reasoning for a fanbase, who follows the console and the franchises. The large majority of Wii's owners do not care about what's next, outside if it is something incredibly surprising. DS was surprising. Wii was surprising. 3DS is surprising. A Wii HD & M+ would not surprise anyone and would sell very poorly.

 

[Regulus Tera]

Wow @ Kirby bomba. WTF has happened to the Wii in Japan?


Why do you keep saying that Kirby is a hardcore game

90k is not bomba.

 

[nincompoop]

90k is not bomba.

Selling less than half of what Kirby games sell on average in their first week is bomba.

 

[Cygnus X-1]

How exactly has Kirby bombed?

It's done well for the platform its on.

I see Kirby not reaching the heights of its handheld entries as when the portable God of War's fail to match the sales of their console brethren. Apples to oranges.

The two last Kirbys on DS sold more than 1 million each. This Kirby sold slightly better then the terrible Air Ride on a system that as an userbase 2.5 times than the Gamecube. How is this not disappointing?

 

[Regulus Tera]

Selling less than half of what Kirby games sell on average in their first week is bomba.

That's not a bomba. Bomba means not making back development plus marketing costs. I doubt Kirby had the budget of an HD game.

 

[Mr. B Natural]

for motion controls[/u] are probably fine with the system. Pointer controls being separate. Traditional gamers who bought Wii primarily for motion controls are probably a very small number. *shrugs*

Gonna have to disagree. The Wii was sold as a motion control system first and foremost. Simply pointing at the screen wouldn't impress...we've had light guns for years. The graphics wouldn't impress. Nothing about it really impressed and captured the imagination of the general public but the motion controls and the potential for new gaming experiences that come with it.

4 years later it's safe to say that the motion control concept is either still untapped or, as many predicted, a gimmick. It's also safe to say that just about everyone on the wii, including nintendo, kinda gave up trying to pull motion controls out of the dark and into relevance. You're seeing less and less motion controls in their games and more and more NES-pad style games with the occasional tilt.

Motion controls as a tool for gaming and not a crutch never got better than wii sports, and as a wii owner, I'm disappointed.

 

[Dragon]

That's not a bomba. Bomba means not making back development plus marketing costs. I doubt Kirby had the budget of an HD game.

Is that the official GAF definition? I always think most of these arguments stem from a difference in definition...

 

[AranhaHunter]

I honestly don't see the need for a Wii2 yet, yes, it could be selling better both in Japan and the US, but let's look at WW shipment estimates for this FY:

PS3 = ~15 million
X360 = not given, but let's say ~15 million as well
Wii = ~18 million

And Nintendo probably makes more per Wii sold than Sony makes per PS3 sold or MS makes per 360 sold. Games like DQX, Zelda and IE will sell extremely well and Nintendo can just make a NSMB2 and sell a shitload. They could also always drop the price, I wouldn't be surprised if they could still make money on the HW on a U$99 Wii. Also, I think it's extremely unlikely for them to put most of their resources on 3DS and still have a compelling lineup for Wii2 in the same year.

 

[Datschge]

Of course. Nintendo did a mistake shifting the development teams from casual stuff to hardcore stuff thinking that casual gamers would have bought their hardcore games. Or better: they did it too late.

They actually did it backward. Usually the early adopters are hardcore gamers but Nintendo offered too little and too inconsistently until they all already moved on to never look back. 3rd party never jumped in to fill the gap. And Nintendo's late hardcore games are too late to make a difference even though they would fully deserve it with all the (developers') efforts involved. Nintendo's "casual" games boosting the sales of the Wii were a stroke of genius, but in the long run it was too one sided. Hindsight and all...

 

[Regulus Tera]

Is that the official GAF definition? I always think most of these arguments stem from a difference in definition...

I'm using box office definition, so who knows.

 

[kame-sennin]

The point is that the system has not enough games. Third parties sabotaged the system from the beginning while Nintendo could not convince them to develop for the system even before it peaked. And Nintendo itself hasn't had any major driving games since 2009. Mario galaxy 2 and Wii Party sold well, but they did not drive the system.

I would agree with this, but I wouldn't use the word 'sabotage'. I think third parties avoided the Wii because it didn't fit the way they do business. In fact, you could argue that by changing the way customers evaluate games, Nintendo sabotaged third parties. These publishers were working in a market where greater visual fidelity led to higher margin products (more expensive games). Nintendo aggressively encouraged their customers to disregard graphics and focus on social and physical interactivity while simultaneously keeping prices flat or driving prices down. It worked well for Nintendo because they kept their development budgets low to match and they have high margin hardware and accessories to sell. But third parties were banking on big games, big budgets, and big prices. Nintendo really pulled the rug out from under them, and in retrospect, it should be no surprise that they weren't embraced by these companies.

Wii Music and AC "failures" sure had an impact, but Nintendo catched up nicely with New Super Mario Bros Wii., Wii Sports Resort and Wii Fit Plus. The problem was solved. Things went wrong after that. Even Motion Plus had an impact, but I would not say a major one. Motion Plus was important mostly in the west with games like Red Steel 2 and some EA sports games. But sales of Wii in occident started to slow down just some months ago, and thus one could think that Wii Motion Plus did not sustain the system, but I would not say it damaged its sales.

I think the WM/AC loss of momentum had more of an impact than that. We saw that after those games released, even a price cut did almost nothing to spur sales. NSMBW had a huge effect on the system, but once the hype died down, the sales went with it. I'm not sure that would have happened if NSMBW was preceded by superior software.

As for M+, we all know third parties can't be trusted. Outside of a few mini-games in WSR, Nintendo never fulfilled the potential of motion controls. I think a lot of people expected full games with motion control back at launch, and we got very few. The new Zelda looks like a good start, but it's definitely too little, too late. More importantly, motion control is the biggest differentiating factor between the Wii and handhelds. Not capitalizing on this caused Nintendo to loose their best defense against handheld cannibalization.

As said, Donkey Kong Country Returns is the last possibility. But I doubt it will have a large effect. Only fans remember Rare's DKC and fanbase on the Wii is very weak.

It all depends on whether or not Nintendo can bring back 2D gamers. There are a lot of people who enjoy 2D games - especially platformers - but have no interest in 3D games. The combination of NSMBW and DKCR could be very effective with this audience. However, I think it's also likely that the two games are spaced too far apart, as you mentioned, DK might not have enough name recognition.

 

[BishopLamont]

The Wii userbase is as much a misery as it is a mystery.

Sorry I'm a mega nerd that dreamt of posting on neogaf, it had to be done.

Now on to DKC, anyone still think it'll do well? :lol

It all depends on whether or not Nintendo can bring back 2D gamers. There are a lot of people who enjoy 2D games - especially platformers - but have no interest in 3D games. The combination of NSMBW and DKCR could be very effective with this audience. However, I think it's also likely that the two games are spaced too far apart, as you mentioned, DK might not have enough name recognition.

What the hell was Kirby then?

 

[donny2112]

Do you really think that a Wii 2 with Motion plus integrated will be enough to make people switch?

Of course not, but I figured repeating the list again would get old.

360+ hardware
easily portable
Motion+ built-in
Probably some camera
Maybe including Pulse-Ox monitor Vitality Sensor
Something else as an excuse to put out new hardware

 

[The_lascar]

 

[EXGN]

PS3 is pulling ahead now by a lot this year. I think this year is pretty much wrapped up for Wii.
EDIT: What caused PS3's rise were there some new HDD models coming out or something? nothing released for it. And I doubt it was NBA2k11 unless all 5,000 people that bought it were newcomers.

Wii holiday sales bump will boost it up considerably. If GT5 doesn't ship this year, Wii can still very easily end up on top. A 40K lead hardly means anything when Nintendo's console regularly sells 100K+ on non-existent software lineups in December.

It will be close, though. Move launch + PES will boost the PS3 considerably as well, plus it already seems to have the momentum.

 

[Cygnus X-1]

Gonna have to disagree. The Wii was sold as a motion control system first and foremost. Simply pointing at the screen wouldn't impress...we've had light guns for years. The graphics wouldn't impress. Nothing about it really impressed and captured the imagination of the general public but the motion controls and the potential for new gaming experiences that come with it.

4 years later it's safe to say that the motion control concept is either still untapped or, as many predicted, a gimmick. It's also safe to say that just about everyone on the wii, including nintendo, kinda gave up trying to pull motion controls out of the dark and into relevance. You're seeing less and less motion controls in their games and more and more NES-pad style games with the occasional tilt.

Motion controls as a tool for gaming and not a crutch never got better than wii sports, and as a wii owner, I'm disappointed.

I system who sold so much on motion control cannot make motion controlling a failure as approach for gaming. It's just slightly more than a prototype. Since it is the first system to use that technology, obviously it is not perfect by any means. Sony and Microsoft are now make motion control more precise and viable, but anyway, it largely depends on how much effort one developer put into the device. I think that many here would agree that Metroid Corruption is a nice example how a First person game can be almost as good as a PC game and way better than double analog joystick. Too bad it was...the only one or almost. A missed opportunity. Developers kept making games for HD systems for reasons we know very well.

Nintendo opened a new door for gaming. Now the point is if to follow and deeper that sector or change subject completely. Once again, it's all about surprising people.

 

[kame-sennin]

Wii Sports Resort was originally slated to come out that Fall.

That's interesting. I don't think Nintendo realized at the time how much that would affect them. On the other hand, I tend to agree with Iwata that sequels, unless they are markedly different from the original, tend to not have a dramatic effect on the market. So it's unclear WSR would have been able to make up for the "weakness" (in terms of hardware selling power) of WM and AC.

My viewpoint may be skewed, but I'd imagine that most people who bought Wii for motion controls are probably fine with the system. Pointer controls being separate. Traditional gamers who bought Wii primarily for motion controls are probably a very small number. *shrugs*

I should clarify. When I said "people who bought Wii for motion controls", I meant people who bought Wii because of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsSKeMJYrt4

Whether we're talking about the expanded market or avid gamers, Nintendo was clearly selling a very new, distinct experience with the Wii. A lot of the specific gameplay shown in the concept video may have been used in mini-games, but it still feels like the strategy implied by that video was abandoned by Nintendo about a year or two into the console's life cycle. I won't belabor this point though, because I think it's more subjective than anything else that's being discussed in this thread.

 

[Flachmatuch]

I would agree with this, but I wouldn't use the word 'sabotage'. I think third parties avoided the Wii because it didn't fit the way they do business. In fact, you could argue that by changing the way customers evaluate games, Nintendo sabotaged third parties. These publishers were working in a market where greater visual fidelity led to higher margin products (more expensive games). Nintendo aggressively encouraged their customers to disregard graphics and focus on social and physical interactivity while simultaneously keeping prices flat or driving prices down. It worked well for Nintendo because they kept their development budgets low to match and they have high margin hardware and accessories to sell. But third parties were banking on big games, big budgets, and big prices. Nintendo really pulled the rug out from under them, and in retrospect, it should be no surprise that they weren't embraced by these companies.

Again, third party developers were/are doing really badly exactly because of this strategy, and the Wii could have offered them a decent chance at developing for a console with a) PS2-level costs and b) a pretty high user base - even not considering motion/pointer controls. Nintendo did not make it impossible for 3rd parties to continue going down any path they want (which would have been sabotage), as what's happening in the industry clearly shows :-/

I think the WM/AC loss of momentum had more of an impact than that. We saw that after those games released, even a price cut did almost nothing to spur sales. NSMBW had a huge effect on the system, but once the hype died down, the sales went with it. I'm not sure that would have happened if NSMBW was preceded by superior software.

As for M+, we all know third parties can't be trusted. Outside of a few mini-games in WSR, Nintendo never fulfilled the potential of motion controls. I think a lot of people expected full games with motion control back at launch, and we got very few. The new Zelda looks like a good start, but it's definitely too little, too late. More importantly, motion control is the biggest differentiating factor between the Wii and handhelds. Not capitalizing on this caused Nintendo to loose their best defense against handheld cannibalization.

Overall, I love the Wii pointer stuff but the DS is just a far better product overall than the Wii (or any other gaming product on the market tbh). Wii did OK, compared to the rest at least...the worst thing about this failure is of course Xenoblade not getting localised. Also, maybe fitness, dance and sports stuff really is all that can be done with motion controls

Gonna have to disagree. The Wii was sold as a motion control system first and foremost. Simply pointing at the screen wouldn't impress...we've had light guns for years.

This isn't really true at all. Lightgun games can be done with the Wiimote, but it doesn't work the other way round. I think a bigger emphasis on better aiming would have been very nice...but now Move's imperfections might spoil all this :-(

 

[NeonZ]

They actually did it backward. Usually the early adopters are hardcore gamers but Nintendo offered too little and too inconsistently until they all already moved on to never look back. 3rd party never jumped in to fill the gap. And Nintendo's late hardcore games are too late to make a difference even though they would fully deserve it with all the (developers') efforts involved. Nintendo's "casual" games boosting the sales of the Wii were a stroke of genius, but in the long run it was too one sided. Hindsight and all...

I think the Wii had hardcore gamers initially. Sales of early titles like Red Steel and Resident Evil 4 attest to that. The Wii launched with WiiSports, but it also had a Zelda game right alongside it and Nintendo itself kept making its usual titles until Smash Bros Brawl and Mario Kart Wii, when there was a large number of months with nothing new available, aside from AC/WiiMusic.

I believe that the hardcore user base was mostly driven away by that disastrous empty AC/WiiMusic year, and never returned. So, the Wii ended up in its current situation. Even a game like NSMB, which was able to drive Wii hardware sales by itself, wasn't able to change the software situation of the Wii in general, which just go progressively worse worldwide in spite of the temporary bump (a bump which Wiisports Resort and WiiFit + failed to give).

 

[Chris1964]

I'll quote many Kirby bomba posts when the holiday season ends.

Next week releases (28/10/10)

DSi LL Super Mario 25th Anniversary Edition (limited)
DSi Super Mario 25th Anniversary Edition (super limited - available only at Seven-Eleven)
[NDS] Golden Sun: Dark Dawn (Nintendo)
[NDS] Zack & Ombra: Amusement Park of Illusion (Konami)
[NDS] Solatorobo: Sore kara Coda e (Bandai Namco)
[NDS] Akogare Girls Collection: Wan Nyan Doubutsu Byouin (Columbia Music Entertainment)

[PSP] God Eater: Burst (Bandai Namco)
[PSP] Dream Club Portable (D3 Publisher)
[PSP] Phantom Brave Portable (Nippon Ichi Software)
[PSP] Nogizaka Haruka no Himitsu: Doujinshi Hajime Mashita (ASCII Media Works)
[PSP] Carnage Heart EXA (Artdink)
[PSP] Lucian Bee's: Justice Yellow (5pb.)
[PSP] Lucian Bee's: Evil Violet (5pb.)
[PSP] Lucian Bee's: Resurrection Supernova (5pb.)
[PSP] Lucian Bee's: Trilogy Box (5pb.)
[PSP] Shin Koihime Musou: Otome Ryouran Sangokushi Engi - Wei-Hen (Yeti)
[PSP] Tsuyo Kiss 2 Portable (NetRevo)
[PSP] Tenchou no Igo (NCS)
[PSP] Toudai Shougi: Mejinsen Dojo (NCS)
[PSP] Da Capo I & II Plus Situation Portable (Kadokawa Shoten)
[PSP] Densetsu no Yuusha no Densetsu: Legendary Saga [Kadokawa the Best] (Kadokawa Shoten)

Playstation 3 Value Pack (limited)
[PS3] World Soccer Winning Eleven 2011 (Konami)

[360] Fable III (Microsoft Game Studios)
[360] World Soccer Winning Eleven 2011 (Konami)
[360] Sharin no Kuni, Himawari no Shoujo (5pb.)
[360] Ore no Yome: Anata Dake no Hanayome (Idea Factory)
[360] Radirgy Noa Massive (Milestone)

[PS2] Hakuouki: Reimeiroku (Idea Factory)
[PS2] Sengoku Hime 2 Honoo: Hyakubana, Senran Tatsukaze no Gotoku (System Soft Alpha)
[PS2] Uragiri wa Boku no Namae o Shitteiru (Kadokawa Shoten)

 

[HK-47]

About Kirby being hardcore: sure it is more than Wii Sports/Wii Party/Wii Fit. And I would not say it is a mass market targeting game like Mario. It's more like Zelda somehow.

Kirby is casual as hell. The fact that a high quality new release did half of what the series normally does is telling. And its telling bad things.

 

[Cygnus X-1]

They actually did it backward. Usually the early adopters are hardcore gamers but Nintendo offered too little and too inconsistently until they all already moved on to never look back. 3rd party never jumped in to fill the gap. And Nintendo's late hardcore games are too late to make a difference even though they would fully deserve it with all the (developers') efforts involved. Nintendo's "casual" games boosting the sales of the Wii were a stroke of genius, but in the long run it was too one sided. Hindsight and all...

Yeah, I second that. But anyway, compared to the blindness of the last two generations (cartridges, cost and times of development, targeting adult audience, childish design of the system, lack of hardware innovations, and more) Nintendo did incredibly well with the Wii. Most importantly, they reached a completely different audience with more mass market characteristics than the audience reached by the Playstation brand; particularly thanks to innovative games like Wii Sports and Wii Fit. This was not easy, while keeping the "from day one profit" target as serious objective. Sure things could have been done better, but some subtle changes were not easy to read. And, after all, when we say "they could have scheduled their games more homogenously" or "they should have planned that better", we always forget that in practice this is much more difficult than saying it. Further, one thing I agree with Iwata, is that successful games like Wii Fit or Rhythm Heaven or even Animal Crossing back on the Gamecube, are mostly unexpected successes. Even DS's absurd levels of sales back in 2005-2006 caught Nintendo completely off guard.

 

[kame-sennin]

Selling less than half of what Kirby games sell on average in their first week is bomba.

"Underperformed" is probably a better phrase than 'bomba' in this context. As someone else noted, a game bombing implies a lack of profitability. I don't think that's the case here.

Gonna have to disagree. The Wii was sold as a motion control system first and foremost. Simply pointing at the screen wouldn't impress...we've had light guns for years. The graphics wouldn't impress. Nothing about it really impressed and captured the imagination of the general public but the motion controls and the potential for new gaming experiences that come with it.

4 years later it's safe to say that the motion control concept is either still untapped or, as many predicted, a gimmick. It's also safe to say that just about everyone on the wii, including nintendo, kinda gave up trying to pull motion controls out of the dark and into relevance. You're seeing less and less motion controls in their games and more and more NES-pad style games with the occasional tilt.

Motion controls as a tool for gaming and not a crutch never got better than wii sports, and as a wii owner, I'm disappointed.

I know I said I wouldn't go into this more, but this is EXACTLY how I feel.

What the hell was Kirby then?

My honest opinion is that it just doesn't have enough appeal for the mainstream. As someone who tends to get excited by the same stuff the expanded audience does, Kirby gave off the vibe that it was a bit too eccentric for people who just wanted another platformer after they finished NSMBW.

 

[Datschge]

Yeah, that's what I was referring to with the "hardcore" moving on and never to look back. Essentially in the public (and the 3rd party publisher) reception after the initial bunch of releases the Wii turned out to be the purely "casual" platform. This worked great for the gaming audience increasing titles, but everything else was increasingly seen as even less than also ran. Maybe Nintendo should have followed two separate PR strategies from the very beginning, the one they used to much success, and a more edgy secondary one promoting typical hardcore stuff in conjunction with a black Wii, black game covers etc. The way everything worked out until now it's hard to deny that Nintendo's major successes overshadowed everything else in the public view. A complete different system like PS3 stands a better chance breaking out of this perception than some minor single games on the same platform.

 

[AniHawk]

My honest opinion is that it just doesn't have enough appeal for the mainstream. As someone who tends to get excited by the same stuff the expanded audience does, Kirby gave off the vibe that it was a bit too eccentric for people who just wanted another platformer after they finished NSMBW.

Well historically speaking, Kirby's always done better on handhelds, and that makes sense considering it's where the series started. Kirby Super Star was the best-selling console entry in Japan and that one only hit 1.1m.

 

[Chris1964]

Well historically speaking, Kirby's always done better on handhelds, and that makes sense considering it's where the series started. Kirby Super Star was the best-selling console entry in Japan and that one only hit 1.1m.

Famitsu numbers (shipments including) are almost complete for Kirby. Only 3 low profile entries are missing. The first one was the biggest seller.

27/04/92 [NGB] Kirby's Dream Land (Nintendo) - / 1.680.000
23/03/93 [NFC] Kirby's Adventure (Nintendo) - / 1.000.000
27/11/93 [NGB] Kirby's Pinball Land (Nintendo) - / 1.110.000
21/03/95 [NGB] Kirby's Dream Land 2 (Nintendo) - / 1.430.000
14/12/95 [NGB] Kirby's Block Ball (Nintendo) - 15.509 / 63.970
21/03/96 [SFC] Kirby Super Star (Nintendo) - 141.621 / 563.806
25/01/97 [NGB] Kirby's Star Stacker (Nintendo) - 19.182 / 69.136
27/03/98 [SFC] Kirby's Dream Land 3 (Nintendo) - 10.223 / 76.048
24/03/00 [N64] Kirby 64: The Crystal Shards (Nintendo) - 245.508 / 882.230
23/08/00 [NGB] Kirby Tilt 'n' Tumble (Nintendo) - 173.068 / 558.984
25/10/02 [GBA] Kirby: Nightmare in Dream Land (Nintendo) - 189.843 / 832.901
11/07/03 [GCN] Kirby Air Ride (Nintendo) - 85.453 / 422.311
15/04/04 [GBA] Kirby & the Amazing Mirror (Nintendo) - 176.225 / 704.295
24/03/05 [NDS] Kirby Canvas Curse (Nintendo) - 72.102 / 315.211
02/11/06 [NDS] Kirby Squeak Squad (Nintendo) - 151.147 / 1.121.151
06/11/08 [NDS] Kirby Super Star Ultra (Nintendo) - 260.867 / 1.188.912

 

[onipex]

Kirby has no legs.

 

[donny2112]

Gonna have to disagree. The Wii was sold as a motion control system first and foremost. Simply pointing at the screen wouldn't impress...we've had light guns for years.

People who bought the Wii primarily for motion controls are probably fine with the system. That's not going to be traditional gamers, who would probably see more worth in pointer controls than button-replacing motion controls. There haven't been too many light-gun console games in FPS/TPS form, used like a mouse to manipulate on-screen objects in platformers/sports games, or to replicate objects like flashlights/scalpels in game form. Light-gun games does not equal Wiimote pointer usage games. That's a ridiculous comparison to say that the pointer isn't doing new stuff in the console space.

4 years later it's safe to say that the motion control concept is either still untapped or, as many predicted, a gimmick.

A lot of the people who bought Wii primarily as a motion control system (not pointer) are probably the ones who also just made Just Dance a multi-million seller. They probably bought it as a system to have fun as opposed to some hardcore, spend all your time playing, gaming device.

It's also safe to say that just about everyone on the wii, including nintendo, kinda gave up trying to pull motion controls out of the dark and into relevance.

Yeah, it's not like Wii Sports Resort/Motion+ was released.

You're seeing less and less motion controls in their games and more and more NES-pad style games with the occasional tilt.

As a gamer, I'm fine with this. It's like the touch screen on the DS. You don't have to use it just because it's there.

Motion controls as a tool for gaming and not a crutch never got better than wii sports,

smh

and as a wii owner, I'm disappointed.

Okay, but you're still not who I was referring to.

 

[BishopLamont]

My honest opinion is that it just doesn't have enough appeal for the mainstream. As someone who tends to get excited by the same stuff the expanded audience does, Kirby gave off the vibe that it was a bit too eccentric for people who just wanted another platformer after they finished NSMBW.

It's a well known 2D brand, going by what you say, DKC should well better right?

Kirby has no legs.

:lol

 

[kame-sennin]

Again, third party developers were/are doing really badly exactly because of this strategy, and the Wii could have offered them a decent chance at developing for a console with a) PS2-level costs and b) a pretty high user base - even not considering motion/pointer controls. Nintendo did not make it impossible for 3rd parties to continue going down any path they want (which would have been sabotage), as what's happening in the industry clearly shows :-/

I was not making a value judgment about third party business practices, nor was I suggesting that Nintendo made it impossible for third parties to support the Wii. What I was saying, by briefly explaining the contrast in strategy between Nintendo and major third parties, was that Nintendo challenged the business model of these publishers and changed the rules of the market. For organizational reasons, companies do not respond well to this kind of shift, and even the best run companies often fail to make the transmission. It's perfectly fair to say that Nintendo created an ecosystem where medium budget games could sell to a large user-base. But we also have to understand that businesses are designed around specific business models, and in turn, the organizational structure of a business often determines what strategies a business can or can not execute. A publisher that has built large development teams designed around creating big budget games can not shift to medium budget games without making massive cuts to staff and rearranging its management structure. Further, medium budget games do not command the same revenue as big budget games ($60 vs $50/$40, no dlc, ect.). That means that executives have to explain to their owners or shareholders that they are going to take a revenue hit. Facing these types of problems, many executives simply try and figure out a way to make the current strategy work rather than restructure an entire business around an untested new strategy.

And again, I am still not making a judgment about whether or not this was the right move. I'm simply trying to make the (long running) debate about third parties and Nintendo a little more clear by pointing out many of the challenges third parties faced at the beginning of this gen.

It's a well known 2D brand, going by what you say, DKC should well better right?

I honestly don't know. But DKCR does seem like it would have more mainstream appeal. It's presentation is a lot simpler and the gameplay seems pretty easy to grasp.

 

[Cygnus X-1]

Yeah, that's what I was referring to with the "hardcore" moving on and never to look back. Essentially in the public (and the 3rd party publisher) reception after the initial bunch of releases the Wii turned out to be the purely "casual" platform. This worked great for the gaming audience increasing titles, but everything else was increasingly seen as even less than also ran. Maybe Nintendo should have followed two separate PR strategies from the very beginning, the one they used to much success, and a more edgy secondary one promoting typical hardcore stuff in conjunction with a black Wii, black game covers etc. The way everything worked out until now it's hard to deny that Nintendo's major successes overshadowed everything else in the public view. A complete different system like PS3 stands a better chance breaking out of this perception than some minor single games on the same platform.

It already was not sure if the Wii would have sold as well as the DS. Predicting that it would have reached 70+ millions was something even the most audacious analyst would't had bet. The same can be said for Wii Fit and its super expensive balance board, or Wii Play and its bunch of mini games and a Wiimote, or Mario Kart and the Wii Wheel.

Nintendo risked a lot and they won a lot. This is not only the result of a planned strategy. The beginning was planned mostly in function of the DS, as model to reach the mass market. The first games were planned. But the rest was also the fact that some key games had success at the right moment. Again, Nintendo's biggest and determining mistake was misjudging third parties once again.

Sometimes I wonder if it really is possible for Nintendo to gain large third party support on an own home system, as it was with the SNES.

Referring to kame_sennin over, I would say: Nintendo's interests and third party's interests seem to never coincide.

 

[[Nintex]]

Nintendo's core push is too little to late and it's pretty telling that they have to back to the N64(GoldenEye/Sin & Punishment) and SNES(Donkey Kong Country) days for reference and IP's.

 

[donny2112]

it's pretty telling that they have to back to the N64(GoldenEye/Sin & Punishment) and SNES(Donkey Kong Country) days for reference and IP's.

That part made me chuckle, in context.

Yeah. Wii 2, please.

 

[Datschge]

Sometimes I wonder if it really is possible for Nintendo to gain large third party support on an own home system, as it was with the SNES.

And Nintendo's problem with this is that SNES was afaik their worst performing console generation for 1st party game sales.

 

[apana]

But nintendo has been doing a lot of marketing of kirby, right?

 

[kame-sennin]

Yeah. Wii 2, please.

I think that, barring a paradigm shifting concept*, a Wii 2 will put Nintendo exactly where they are right now but in 2 or 3 years instead of 4. At least as far as Japan is concerned, it's clear that handhelds are dominant and I don't think that's ever going to be reversed.

*DS plus Brain Age/Nintendogs, Wii plus Wii Sports, Wii Fit.

Sometimes I wonder if it really is possible for Nintendo to gain large third party support on an own home system, as it was with the SNES.

Referring to kame_sennin over, I would say: Nintendo's interests and third party's interests seem to never coincide.

Except during the SNES generation when Nintendo and third parties had similar creative and business philosophies. So in a sense, your second comment answers your first.

 

[Celine]

I was not making a value judgment about third party business practices, nor was I suggesting that Nintendo made it impossible for third parties to support the Wii. What I was saying, by briefly explaining the contrast in strategy between Nintendo and major third parties, was that Nintendo challenged the business model of these publishers and changed the rules of the market. For organizational reasons, companies do not respond well to this kind of shift, and even the best run companies often fail to make the transmission. It's perfectly fair to say that Nintendo created an ecosystem where medium budget games could sell to a large user-base. But we also have to understand that businesses are designed around specific business models, and in turn, the organizational structure of a business often determines what strategies a business can or can not execute. A publisher that has built large development teams designed around creating big budget games can not shift to medium budget games without making massive cuts to staff and rearranging its management structure. Further, medium budget games do not command the same revenue as big budget games ($60 vs $50/$40, no dlc, ect.). That means that executives have to explain to their owners or shareholders that they are going to take a revenue hit. Facing these types of problems, many executives simply try and figure out a way to make the current strategy work rather than restructure an entire business around an untested new strategy.

Good post.
With the Wii there is/was a clash between philosophy.

Sometimes I wonder if it really is possible for Nintendo to gain large third party support on an own home system, as it was with the SNES.

Not until
1) Nintendo is the only platform holder or
2) Nintendo competitors has similar business model ( i.e. being primary a gaming company ) as was with Sega, Atari, Hudson etc. more than a decade ago or
3) Nintendo isn't Nintendo.

 

[Kenka]

PSP - 6
PS3 - 5
WII - 5
NDS - 3
360 - 1
PS2 - 0

That must be a minus record for the past five years or so.

 

[Osuwari]

surprising to see the new Kirby game selling so low. seeing the list of past Kirby games, looks like this one got on the unpopular side. hopefully the holiday helps it to reach better sales. at least Metroid's bad sales could be seen coming easily.

i'm betting that DKCR will also sell bad. it will probably open in the 100k-200k range.

 

[Kenka]

fuck

 

[Allan Holdsworth]

Good Feel games are cursed. Wario Land also sold pretty bad, though it managed to finish at over 100k after a bad start (Famitsu 25k FW --> 115k LTD)
If Kirby has the same legs it won't cross 500k. Pretty dissapointing. Guess it was seen as a spinoff... ?

If it has Squeak Squad (first traditional Kirby on DS, as Epic Yarn is Wii's) legs it would end at 680k, which is about what I was expecting as LTD before it came out. That seems highly unlikely though.

 

[hatchx]

I'm very disappointed for Kirby. Then we wonder why Nintendo did not want to develop hardcore games anymore. Shit, every of them seems to sell much worse than predicted. Even B-games like Wii Music or re-re-remakes like Animal Crossing City Folk sell much better in the end.

If Donkey Kong Country Returns bombs as well, hardly will Nintendo shift his development teams to the hardcore side anymore.

It most likely will bomb in Japan (and by bomb, I'm predicting a cap around 300-400k).

However, in NA it'll do 2 million for sure. The worldwide sales will be fantastic.

Japan and NA are very different markets, I don't think neogaf is the only one to see that.

 

[hatchx]

Nintendo's core push is too little to late and it's pretty telling that they have to back to the N64(GoldenEye/Sin & Punishment) and SNES(Donkey Kong Country) days for reference and IP's.

There's nothing wrong with that.

 

[The_lascar]

I'll quote many Kirby bomba posts when the holiday season ends.

This.

 

[apana]

Maybe some people were put off because it seemed a little bit kiddy, they wanted a more agressive kirby game? Anyways hopefully sales will be climbing up, I think a lot of the audience is just feeling lethargic right now. They are not in the habit of buying games due to all the bad software they have to put up with.

 

[Cygnus X-1]

Maybe some people were put off because it seemed a little bit kiddy, they wanted a more agressive kirby game? Anyways hopefully sales will be climbing up, I think a lot of the audience is just feeling lethargic right now. They are not in the habit of buying games due to all the bad software they have to put up with.

Kirby has been "aggressive" only in U.S. and EU. And only on the box arts.

ROFL.

 

[Boney]

So uh..what's goin on here :lol

 

[Relix]

I hope Epic Yarn burns and crashes. Its such an awful, awful game.

 

[donny2112]

At least as far as Japan is concerned, it's clear that handhelds are dominant and I don't think that's ever going to be reversed.

That doesn't matter. Wii doesn't have to be "OMGoodness, #1 with a bullet!" But it could be doing a whole freaking more like a PS2 (would be #2 in this market) if third-parties hadn't abandoned it from almost the get-go. Japan has seen the earliest and, thus far, worst impact for Wii due to third-party abandonment. If it was "just" Wii with PS360 games, it'd be doing a whole freaking lot better, right now.