So one (fanservice) game? I wouldn't really class Ys or LOH as that sort of thing, would you?
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Media Create Sales: Week 28, 2014 (Jul 07 - Jul 13)
- Thread starter Chris1964
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test_account
XP-39C²
Do you concider those title that you listed as niche? Honest question. That is what he mentioned, not just JRPGs in general. Personally i wouldnt really call those titles niche, especially not titles like Tales and Fire Emblem, where the latter sold somewhere around 500k i think.sörine;121323505 said:
test_account
XP-39C²
Those are 100k sellers, arent they? I guess maybe those were niche before, but in these day and age, a 100k seller in Japan seems like a normal seller to me.
While true, we don't see that many Japanese studios closing. They just move to any work they can get instead of their staff moving on to passion projects.
So, for example, a lot of the old Team Silent now works on either Metal Gear or Konami's social mobile games instead of an indie horror title.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Fire Emblem was niche the only reason we're talking as if it isn't was because awakening did well but it was a niche series. The series was gonna get axed after all.
test_account
XP-39C²
Yeah, but the interest for the latest installment was high and that is the most relevant thing when talking about popularity. Like you say, it was a niche serie =)
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Which means it doesn't work in the context of the argument your using. Since it was niche and managed to do well as a series it didn't do well until the 3DS release..
I still feel we're talking about a generation with 1.5-2.5 years left in it.
Like if someone at Falcom or Nippon Ichi saw Youkai Watch's sales and actually had the reaction "OMG!!! My totally not comparable product could get in on some of this!!!!!! Cancel everything and move on over!" and started making a 3DS game today, they'd get about one game out before they were going to switch anyway by virtue of there being one option left.
Like if someone at Falcom or Nippon Ichi saw Youkai Watch's sales and actually had the reaction "OMG!!! My totally not comparable product could get in on some of this!!!!!! Cancel everything and move on over!" and started making a 3DS game today, they'd get about one game out before they were going to switch anyway by virtue of there being one option left.
test_account
XP-39C²
I see your point. The previous Fire Emblem games also sold pretty well though. The GBA and DS games ranged from ~250k - ~350k. The Wii game did about 172k. Not exactly small sellers.
Anyway, there isnt a clear key answer to what exactly "niche" is. Its all relative i guess.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
170k is quite a small seller and that's the most recent example. Sure it's not less than 100k but that still counts as fairly niche well yeah but generally I consider under 200k niche as in it can still be economical and worthwhile to release but such a venture won't be highly profitable, Fire emblem is a bit more than that but it's still that ball park.
But then Falcom's mainline stuff isn't niche either.
test_account
XP-39C²
There were two Fire Emblem games for DS after the Wii game. Both those did around 250k:
http://garaph.info/gamesearch.php?t...d1=&sltd2=&gameid=&orderby=&res1=&res2=&opt=1
But fair enough, personally i dont think that is exactly niche, but thats just my opinion.
Yeah, i guess that the Kiseki games arent exactly niche, i agree.
But calling it niche or not, i guess that it isnt really that important to the core arguement. We know the sales numbers and those are objective data. I was just wondering if he concidered those titles he listed as being niche. I guess that i could have asked if he concider the popularity of those series to be on par with the NIS and Falcom games instead.
Hero of Legend
Member
I would think they could get at least an easy port done in a few months (hey if Nintendo did WWHD in 6 months, anything's possible
).Some examples; how about Gust up-port their DS Atelier games, or the same with NIS? AKA pull a Devil Survivor: Overclocked.
Also I think the whole "3D not being required anymore" thing seen with One Piece and such isn't widely known enough, as that'd make ports MUCH easier, as I would think 3D is quite a barrier in time and resources in trying to make the damn thing work.
I dunno, I would think even DS up-ports with higher-res art and a wider-view for the main screen would be cheap and something to provide. That's just me. Especially since 3DS has DS tech built in, that should in theory heavily simplify the transition.
That's just me though. Of course they shouldn't just cancel everything.
My example was meant to be hyperbole.I would think they could get at least an easy port done in a few months (hey if Nintendo did WWHD in 6 months, anything's possible
Some examples; how about Gust up-port their DS Atelier games, or the same with NIS? AKA pull a Devil Survivor: Overclocked.
Also I think the whole "3D not being required anymore" thing seen with One Piece and such isn't widely known enough, as that'd make ports MUCH easier, as I would think 3D is quite a barrier in time and resources in trying to make the damn thing work.
I dunno, I would think even DS up-ports with higher-res art and a wider-view for the main screen would be cheap and something to provide. That's just me. Especially since 3DS has DS tech built in, that should in theory heavily simplify the transition.
That's just me though. Of course they shouldn't just cancel everything.
They could certainly port a wide variety of things quickly, but I get the impression people are thinking more along the lines of major new entries in series when they say trying out the 3DS.
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2013...a-third-party-production-team/#comment-899284
Speaking of flops, Medarot 8 is about to be sent into the sun. Yokai Watch 2 is eating all of those kid dollars.
There was a Limited Edition Yokai Watch 3DS released, but I don't believe it comes with a copy of the game.
Kresnik258
Member
The people in this thread seem to be asking for NIS/Falcom to commit to 3DS (and its successor) going forward, though. Up-ports aren't going to do that.
Heck, NIS barely have anything to up-port. A Witch's Tale which bombed anyway; and a 10 year old Disgaea title which is already available on 3 other systems (and has mechanically been surpassed for years).
I can't see this leading anywhere other than them trying (again) at Nintendo handheld support, it bombing and them withdrawing support again.
I reckon Gust could do decently on 3DS feeding Atelier off the Rune Factory/Harvest Moon crowd, though.
Incidentally, how did the DS Atelier games sell?
tilinelson2
Banned
sörine;121323505 said:
You mentioned games traditionally on Nintendo platforms (or spin-offs of these series) that sold well on DS too. The argument has never been about JRPGs not selling on 3DS.
The argument is that migrating to 3DS or trying to make multiplat hasn't helped the ones that tried (stuff like Conception, or even Persona Q that is "amazing" compared to an enhanced port), the same way that NIS, Gust and Falcom efforts on DS haven't paid off.
So, there is no point for Falcom, NIS, Gust, Compile Heart, etc to spend money with new engines, logistics, etc, just to publish a game on 3DS when their fans are not asking for it and the rest don't care. The only people I see asking for that are those who want every game on Nintendo systems.
The Abominable Snowman
Member
"Get associated with a megahit TV show/card game phenomenon and capitalize on it"?
test_account
XP-39C²
I caught your edit now, so i reply to that as well. That is fair enough. I dont think there is a clear cut answer to exactly whats niche or not, so people can have some different opinions about whats niche or not. I guess that i could have asked if he concider the popularity of those series to be on par with the NIS and Falcom games instead.
Yeah, creating a Yokai Watch is easier said than done. We've seen Square Enix, Capcom and Sega launch cross-media under performers on 3DS in the past year.
NDS : Atelier Lise: Orudooru no Renkinjutsushi ( Gust ) { 2007-04-19 } - 21,739 / 40,542
NDS : Atelier Annie: Alchemists of Sera Island ( Gust ) { 2009-03-12 } - 14,549 / 38,103
For comparison (although it's a bit broken since original game vs. port):
PSV : Atelier Totori Plus: The Adventurer of Arland ( Gust ) { 2012-11-29 } - 30,956 / 57,000
PSV : Atelier Meruru Plus: The Apprentice of Arland ( Gust ) { 2013-03-20 } - 24,996 / 39,506
PSV : Atelier Rorona Plus: The Alchemist of Arland ( Gust ) { 2013-11-21 } - 17,547 / 17,547
PSV : Atelier Ayesha Plus: The Alchemist of Dusk ( Gust ) { 2014-03-27 } - 12,253 / 12,253
The Vita ports are probably decent business for Koei Tecmo. The first handful of games run on Phyre Engine, which is probably an easy port to Vita. The rest run on the Dynasty Warriors engine, which again, is probably an easy port.
future_pinoy
Member
Boom Panes @ Yokai Watch ... very impressive ...
Kresnik258
Member
Thanks Takao. That's... a fair bit less than I was expecting. I gather they had low production values but they were still built-from-the-ground-up games. Hmm.
MasterSheen
Member
YW2's sales I think make it already Level 5's best selling game, just after YW1 broke the record (DQ aside).
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
I definitely agree with those people saying that GUST, Falcom and NIS will stick to PSV/3/4.
Lets look at each one.
Falcom
Their biggest hit was LoH PSP which did 194k
However now they are putting the games on both PS3/V it seems there most recent title is the best selling one.
Sen no Kiseki
PS3 : 90k
PSV : 123k
Think if Sony indeed does not have a PSP3 then Falcom will just be putting their games on Playstation home consoles because thats where their audience has always been. They seem to be trying to grow it as well.
We also know that they have a PS4 title in production so we can kind of see where they are planning to go.
NIS
Their biggest franchise seems to be Disgaea which has always performed best on Playstation home consoles. There not being another Sony handheld will most likely mean more concentration on PS4. We again know they have a PS4 game in dev presumably Disgaea V.
GUST
Their biggest, staple franchise is of course Atelier. These have always done best on Playstation home consoles, with their best selling game being Arkland 3 on PS3. There not being a Sony handheld most likely means more titles on PS4. Once again we know they have a PS4 title in the works.
Compile Heart
Most notable series is the Neptunia series. Do best on Playstation home consoles and a new one has just been announced for PS4. Its clear which platform they are migrating to and it makes sense.
I think its very clear where these 4 companies are going and its certainly not 3DS any time soon. Its evidently PS4/V/3
So the question comes up in what franchises will make their way to the 4DS if there is no new Sony handheld:
God Eater seems definite since it relies on the ad hoc play.
Phantasy Star Portable again because it needs to be portable and in this hypothetical scenario there is no other handheld.
Basically games that rely on being portable to sell or have their audience there.
Lets look at each one.
Falcom
Their biggest hit was LoH PSP which did 194k
However now they are putting the games on both PS3/V it seems there most recent title is the best selling one.
Sen no Kiseki
PS3 : 90k
PSV : 123k
Think if Sony indeed does not have a PSP3 then Falcom will just be putting their games on Playstation home consoles because thats where their audience has always been. They seem to be trying to grow it as well.
We also know that they have a PS4 title in production so we can kind of see where they are planning to go.
NIS
Their biggest franchise seems to be Disgaea which has always performed best on Playstation home consoles. There not being another Sony handheld will most likely mean more concentration on PS4. We again know they have a PS4 game in dev presumably Disgaea V.
GUST
Their biggest, staple franchise is of course Atelier. These have always done best on Playstation home consoles, with their best selling game being Arkland 3 on PS3. There not being a Sony handheld most likely means more titles on PS4. Once again we know they have a PS4 title in the works.
Compile Heart
Most notable series is the Neptunia series. Do best on Playstation home consoles and a new one has just been announced for PS4. Its clear which platform they are migrating to and it makes sense.
I think its very clear where these 4 companies are going and its certainly not 3DS any time soon. Its evidently PS4/V/3
So the question comes up in what franchises will make their way to the 4DS if there is no new Sony handheld:
God Eater seems definite since it relies on the ad hoc play.
Phantasy Star Portable again because it needs to be portable and in this hypothetical scenario there is no other handheld.
Basically games that rely on being portable to sell or have their audience there.
I imagine there's a problem with the amount of releases being pumped out (four releases in less than 2 years). It's an issue facing the series on its home platform too:
PS3 : Atelier Rorona: The Alchemist of Arland ( Gust ) { 2009-06-25 } - 47,456 / 75,063
PS3 : Atelier Totori: The Adventurer of Arland ( Gust ) { 2010-06-24 } - 72,836 / 104,711
PS3 : Atelier Meruru: The Apprentice of Arland ( Gust ) { 2011-06-23 } - 100,722 / 137,764
PS3 : Atelier Ayesha: The Alchemist of Dusk ( Gust ) { 2012-06-28 } - 75,874 / 102,145
PS3 : Atelier Escha & Logy: Alchemists of Dusk Sky ( Gust ) { 2013-06-27 } - 58,169 / 91,538
PS3 : Atelier Rorona Plus: The Alchemist of Arland ( Gust ) { 2013-11-21 } - 15,575 / 15,575
Atelier Rorona Plus is still baffling to me, I can't believe they thought it would sell.
Depends if you count all the IE3 versions together or not.
Depends if you count all the IE3 versions together or not.
I'd consider some of them about as niche as I would Legend of Heroes or Disgaea. Would you consider those niche?
I see. So one fanservice game really is all the data you can point to it seems. Which also sold mediocre on Vita anyway.
Not too surprising when they're 1) just ports and 2) being released half a year apart.
It mostly shows that the so called "gust" market isn't specifically on Vita, it prety much doesn't exist.
It's not like those Atelier games are any good, Gust has been making the same game since the Saturn days. (Yes I know the games have evolved, but they're still more or less ftw same damn formula).
That's why I'm still waiting for Chronos Materia.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
Atelier games are good, but I think they would benefit from not releasing one every year, I play too many games and I just can't get excited for yet another Atelier game.... and they are FANTASTIC! I've been playing Escha and Logy and damn it's good.
I also don't think you can compare the Vita/PS3 sales when the Vita ones are just ports.
Yes, I agree. The "by force" is usually in the west. A lot of console-centric development houses over the past few years in the West have been forced to work on iOS simply by economic necessity; the development houses they worked at were closed and shuttered, and iOS jobs were what was available.
While Western publishers have come to dominate the console space, it has mostly been accomplished on the backs of some pretty brutal job cuts. While Japan has lost console dominance, it has mostly managed to avoid firing a bunch of people. Take your pick on which is better.
Metallix87
Member
PS4 is dead in the water, PS3 is on it's way out, and PSV is likely the final Sony handheld. All signs point to either going in on Nintendo's next handheld, or going mobile-only. That's basically true for most Japanese-centric studios now.
From a personal point of view, I fully agree... I really like the atelier series, but given the time I have, they're mostly filling my backlog.
That being said, maybe (probably) Gust still makes more money by releasing more games, even if people begin to skip some of them.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
So you didn't read anything else in the post? Whats the point in even having a discussion with you. Ignoring your post.
Metallix87
Member
I read your entire post, but it's a flawed post, because you fail to address that major issue. The platforms they're focusing on are either struggling or the end of the line. You touched on the end of the line for Sony handhelds, but what say you on the decline of Sony consoles (and consoles in general)? Companies like NIS and Gust and Falcom and such will have to look to Nintendo's handhelds, unless they're happy going to mobile, which I suppose is possible.
Quite a few people own a 3DS and is unhappy with its thirdparty support, and therefore wants more japanese thirdparties to produce games for it. It has nothing to do with "wanting every game on a Nintendo-system".
test_account
XP-39C²
If people think that Vita is the last Sony handheld, how long do you think that it will be relevant in Japan?
Looking at the sales numbers for those games (over 100k for mainline titles), i guess that i wouldnt exactly call them niche, at least that wouldnt be my initial thoughts on it, i think. But calling it niche or not, those games sales wise are definitelly comparable indeed.sörine;121335268 said:
2 years more, maybe.
It's not selling enough units and software to have a much longer lifespan.
If Sony was fully supporting it, then maybe it could stay for 3-4 more years, but I just don't see it happening.
Sammy Samusu
Member
Can I port beg Idol Master?
Metallix87
Member
I mean, just how "relevant" do you think it is? It's "successful" weeks are comparable to what posters refer to as "bad" weeks for the 3DS, and most times worse than that. I think the Vita will remain at this level of relevancy for another year or so, and then once Nintendo announces the 4DS or whatever they want to call it, the system will more or less fade away in terms of sales.
Lightning4Ever
Banned
Makes me happy to see at least somewhere appreciates the Vita
I think it'll depend on Nintendo's next handheld.
I think Vita will have a long-ish life ahead in Japan. Not sure how exactly it'll go in the west but in Japan I see PS3/Vita multi being the plan for a lot of Japanese developers over the next several years. I think Vita/4DS could be a possibility too.
Moor-Angol
Banned
I didn't follow the entire thread, but was it already mentioned ?
last week Road was talking about it and finally P4G came back on Famitsu chart too
