Neil Druckmann finally confirms - "Joel was right"

Is he laying the foundation for retconning the second game so that they can keep Pedro Pascal around?

I must admit I've been looking forward to this for a while, because either way he's screwed. They can retcon Joel's death and he has to admit he was wrong to kill him off, or they can go through with it and kill the show because Pascal is carrying it solely on his shoulders right now.
 

EDMIX

Writes a lot, says very little
I wonder if he'd bludgeon Joel with a golf club if he was in Abby's shoes.
He probably would, shit I would and even I agree with Joels actions...

You can agree with someone's actions from their perspective and still understand why someone else disagrees with him enough to murder him.

So I would do Joel worse if he killed my father, we would be in that basement for days lol Tommy would get it, Ellie would get it just before being there lol
 

Cakeboxer

Member
Is he laying the foundation for retconning the second game so that they can keep Pedro Pascal around?

I must admit I've been looking forward to this for a while, because either way he's screwed. They can retcon Joel's death and he has to admit he was wrong to kill him off, or they can go through with it and kill the show because Pascal is carrying it solely on his shoulders right now.
They should just kill Ramsey instead.
 

EDMIX

Writes a lot, says very little
I would 100% have done the same thing.
Truth.

This is why I love the story of this IP so much, I think most on here would do the same thing in Joels shoes and most on where would do the same thing in Abby's (maybe even more so in her shoes)

Both parties are just in their actions.

From Joel's perspective, we don't even know if that experiment would really stop the virus, it could be a completely failure, so saving her from being used this way makes sense to Joel, but clearly he will know that once word gets out, anyone had family that he killed or family and friends that died from the virus would go looking for him as they would feel he cheated them out of a cure.

From Abby's perspective, her father is killed by a mad man, it doesn't matter what Joels feelings are, reasons are etc, from her perspective, her father is a doctor, making a massive sacrifice to try to find a cure to save the world and some mad man killed him. Her seeking Joel is just. Abby would clearly know her revenge would not just be the end of it, even sparing Tommy and Ellie, that she likely knew they may one day seek her out, they way she seeked out Joel.

Easily one of my favorite stories in all of gaming.

I love it as is.
 

Power Pro

Member
He probably would, shit I would and even I agree with Joels actions...

You can agree with someone's actions from their perspective and still understand why someone else disagrees with him enough to murder him.

So I would do Joel worse if he killed my father, we would be in that basement for days lol Tommy would get it, Ellie would get it just before being there lol
I loved my father, but if my father was going to murder a young girl without her consent for an experiment that probably wouldn't work,, and that girl's father murdered him to prevent him from doing so... then yeah...I'd say "i hate you, but I understand..."
 

Lethal01

Member
He probably would, shit I would and even I agree with Joels actions...

You can agree with someone's actions from their perspective and still understand why someone else disagrees with him enough to murder him.

So I would do Joel worse if he killed my father, we would be in that basement for days lol Tommy would get it, Ellie would get it just before being there lol

I woulnd't say he was right, its one life vs millions, i just dont hate him for doing something wrong.
 

EDMIX

Writes a lot, says very little
I woulnd't say he was right, its one life vs millions, i just dont hate him for doing something wrong.
I understand, I'd say more so that his perception is that he is right.

I think its easy not to hate him as we are separated from the conflict, it doesn't effect us. I feel if all of this personally effected us, like family who died, mothers, daughters, sons etc if we hear the that cure could have been made, but a man stopped it from happening, we would have different takes.

There would be that "what if", that "what if he let them continue and we found a cure and suzy didn't die and got cured etc" and course the very direct, "if he didn't kill our parents in that hospital"etc

So I feel sure, its easy not to hate him as none of us lost any parents or family due to him, thus hard to connect that.

Abby's actions cannot be justified in any sense if she was aware of the circumstances surrounding her father holding someone against their will to experiment on them. It's simply a revenge killing of someone who did nothing wrong.

From her perspective, its for the greater good and someone killed her father, thus is just to her to find that person and do them in.

I'm sorry but...I don't really buy that anyone here is having their parent killed and thinking they will just let it slide or anything odd like that. Look up gangs, do you think they give shit that the reason someone killed their family TO THEM was just? Not really, they will find them, smoke them etc

I don't know of many that will really, like truly be like "wow, I see now, its ok you killed dad and or mom" lol Someone would have to be a saint and with the rage folks have against Abby, a plie of pixels, a fake character, I simply don't believe in real life no one here would seek revenge.

If anything, look up the cases of self defense, to the family that lost a family member, it doesn't matter it was ruled self defense, it doesn't matter that from the person's point of view, they were justified, you'll still hear "he could have walked away, he could have not used a gun, he could have called the cops instead" etc etc

When emotions are up like this, I don't really buy that someone is just doing some dumb game logic and being like "the main character is right, my mom deserved to die bro" I've yet to really see this much in real life, to say that is the norm and that is how humans will behave about something like that.

People generally will not side against their family in this respect.

TLDR - Abby like most humans will rationalize her actions just like Joel rationalized his. They will not side against their own based on logic as humans rarely do.
 
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GHound

Member
By believing Joel was right he in a round about way believes that some of his more vocal anti-Joel fans are wrong.

I'd hate to be one of those guys right now.
Trying Not To Laugh Rooster Teeth GIF by Achievement Hunter
 
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Lethal01

Member
I understand, I'd say more so that his perception is that he is right.

I think its easy not to hate him as we are separated from the conflict, it doesn't effect us. I feel if all of this personally effected us, like family who died, mothers, daughters, sons etc if we hear the that cure could have been made, but a man stopped it from happening, we would have different takes.

There would be that "what if", that "what if he let them continue and we found a cure and suzy didn't die and got cured etc" and course the very direct, "if he didn't kill our parents in that hospital"etc

So I feel sure, its easy not to hate him as none of us lost any parents or family due to him, thus hard to connect that.



From her perspective, its for the greater good and someone killed her father, thus is just to her to find that person and do them in.

I'm sorry but...I don't really buy that anyone here is having their parent killed and thinking they will just let it slide or anything odd like that. Look up gangs, do you think they give shit that the reason someone killed their family TO THEM was just? Not really, they will find them, smoke them etc

I don't know of many that will really, like truly be like "wow, I see now, its ok you killed dad and or mom" lol Someone would have to be a saint and with the rage folks have against Abby, a plie of pixels, a fake character, I simply don't believe in real life no one here would seek revenge.

If anything, look up the cases of self defense, to the family that lost a family member, it doesn't matter it was ruled self defense, it doesn't matter that from the person's point of view, they were justified, you'll still hear "he could have walked away, he could have not used a gun, he could have called the cops instead" etc etc

When emotions are up like this, I don't really buy that someone is just doing some dumb game logic and being like "the main character is right, my mom deserved to die bro" I've yet to really see this much in real life, to say that is the norm and that is how humans will behave about something like that.

People generally will not side against their family in this respect.

Sure, i generall meant we as an audience
If Joel killed my family and I knew he did it against just about everyones wishes including the one he saved I'd hate him to.

For the case of self defense however, I'd definitely not blindly defend my family that I can say that for certainty and in the imaginary scenario my parent was about to kill a little girl without her consent even for the good of an entire country I would also really not have the urge to get him back

but I've seen enough deaths with nobody to blame for them

Intentionally killing the one person with the cure is not a smart move by any measure.

Sure if you care about the world more than that girl, Joel does not and I dont hate him for that
 

EDMIX

Writes a lot, says very little
Intentionally killing the one person with the cure is not a smart move by any measure.
I agree, but when emotions are high, humans rarely do smart things. Logically, for the greater good, it makes more sense to give her to science to save many, even if there is a small chance, but emotions rarely are logical.
 

PeteBull

Member
Source: https://www.ign.com/articles/the-la...r-whether-or-not-joel-was-right-to-save-ellie

“I believe Joel was right,” Druckmann admits. “If I were in Joel's position, I hope I would be able to do what he did to save my daughter.”


Another rare victory
Ppl still wont give a fuck about his intergalactic bald blasian stud, but i bet he can finally feel the heat now :D

Edit:
If he really wants to make it good, he should do tlou2 remake with its story/totally remade, golfclub treatment shouldnt happen there, not saying joel should survive but lets give him a proper hero's dead at the end of the game where he sacrifices himself in some big hero shoutout to save ellie one last time, and that biatch on male hormones defo should die in a nasty way be it by joel or ellie :)
 
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Markio128

Gold Member
I enjoyed the story for what it is. I love the games and enjoyed the first season of the show.

I’ll never understand why people get their knickers in such a twist about it. It’s a game for fuck sake. They aren’t real people.

And to be honest, I was more shocked over Pascal’s death in GOT. That was fucked up.
 

Lethal01

Member
The alternative isn’t she leaves, the alternative is they study her to find out how to use it for everyone. Killing her doesn’t equal saving humanity, it means losing the one person who can help save them.

I dont follow what you are saying
the options were at best

1. He lets them kill her, make a cure and nobody transforms into a zombie saving Huge numbers of people
2. Joel stops them from killing her, there is no cure, huge number of people die.

Joel cared about her more than those people so it was a logical and smart decision.

ah wait you mean they should have kept her alive to study her? I'm just accepting the story as the writer present it where killing ellie would indeed be the best way to help the world.
 
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Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
Yep. Joel was right because Ellie was his world. The rest didn't matter to him. And as he said, "he would do it all over again."

What happened to Joel later is of no consequence.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
The game doesn't really showing anything that the Fireflies were capable of producing enough to save millions is what make me lean towards Joel being right.

But even if it did, the way they rushed the operation makes me question if the Fireflies would distribute the vaccine "fairly".

TLOU2 kinda shows humanity is capable of surviving in a world with the cordyceps virus and the main threat comes from other humans, reducing the need of the vaccine.
 
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MagnesD3

Member
Of course he was. You dont owe the world that killed your daughter shit. The world that has become a great example for why humanity cant be trusted with the golden ticket. Why would you trust the fireflies to do the right thing if it worked? Hell it wasnt even a guarentee just a coin flip. And if I remember correctly before it was retconned and patched out of the ps3 version there was a recording in the last level that implied there were others like ellie before that they tried this on and failed. Joel was never even close to being in the wrong here..
 
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bitbydeath

Gold Member
I dont follow what you are saying
the options were at best

1. He lets them kill her, make a cure and nobody transforms into a zombie saving Huge numbers of people
2. Joel stops them from killing her, there is no cure, huge number of people die.

Joel cared about her more than those people so it was a logical and smart decision.

ah wait you mean they should have kept her alive to study her? I'm just accepting the story as the writer present it where killing ellie would indeed be the best way to help the world.
Fireflies are an unreliable narrator.
Their goal was to create a cure by killing a girl, they came to this conclusion without studying what made her immune.

Perhaps their real goal was to ensure there was no cure by killing anyone they found that had immunity.
 

Doggyred

Member
Cuckman decided to kill Joel the way he did while also having a character that looks just like him spit on his corpse because that's how he feels towards white men in general.

Remember that his original idea for the story had Tess hunting him down across the county and killing him before it was thrown away by people around him because of how stupid it was. Then he got rid of those people and had full control over the direction of the second game and the first thing he does is kill off one of the most popular characters in gaming.
 
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Lethal01

Member
Fireflies are an unreliable narrator.
Their goal was to create a cure by killing a girl, they came to this conclusion without studying what made her immune.

Perhaps their real goal was to ensure there was no cure by killing anyone they found that had immunity.
Logical way to see thigns sure, realistically i'd agree but in this world where writers are god i feel the writer is telling me that it would actually work and these are the options we have.
 

realcool

Member
Source: https://www.ign.com/articles/the-la...r-whether-or-not-joel-was-right-to-save-ellie

“I believe Joel was right,” Druckmann admits. “If I were in Joel's position, I hope I would be able to do what he did to save my daughter.”


Another rare victory
Does Neil explain why Joel, who feels justified in his actions, later cowers before a 14-year-old girl and deceives her when she asks about what happened at the hospital? He doesn't, because it makes no sense.

People think Joel was butchered in Part 2, but I disagree. It was clearly at the end of Part 1.
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
Of course Druckmann thought Joel was "right"; it wouldn't work as a dramatic climax if it was a cynical act!

The same way as Abby killing Joel at the start of TLOU2 seems like an equally "righteous" act of vengeance, but also has terrible consequences.

The whole point is that decisions that may make emotional sense in the moment can end up backfiring horribly.
 
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