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"Netflix Has Created A Self-Fulfilling Cancelation Loop With Its New Shows"

What is scary is that Netflix is also the only profitable streamer. So that means either 1) they are successful despite their perceived ineptitude, or 2) they figured out that this is actually the only way to run a streaming service profitably.

Streaming is in for a rude awakening once the finance people fully digest that rates aren't 0% anymore.
 

Doom85

Member
At least shows that would never see the light of day get made compared to the conservative days of cable/network television.

Indeed, IIRC Stranger Things was passed by a ton of networks (I can’t remember if it was ever specifically stated, but I think lots of executives refused to believe adults would watch a show where most of the leads were preteens) before being picked up by Netflix.

They‘re also the rare place where cartoons can be mature but also focused on drama over comedy as seen with Arcane and Castlevania. They’ve learned well from anime, whereas a lot of other networks‘ adult cartoons are pretty much all comedy-focused or if there is drama it’s not the main focus. Not that there’s anything wrong with the latter, but variety is always appreciated.
 

jufonuk

not tag worthy
Netflix now felt like it was “actively stealing time from me.”

we are actively giving our time to Netflix, turn it off and go do something else
Happy If You Say So GIF


The really worth while watchable shows are either products they bought that were completed already (BBC series) whole. Or something they co produce/ take over for. (Last kingdom)

All new things are designed to be mass consumed as fast as possible. But then cancelled if no one watched them fast enough. Also a lot of the stories aren’t allowed to breath.
 
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diffusionx

Gold Member
Netflix is a mess right now. Most of their content is horrible, cookie-cutter stuff. It’s just really bad. The documentaries are mostly horrible, just overly produced, hit the same notes, and are dragged out to be twice as long as they should. Even the stuff that is decent and gets hype really is way too long and ends up overstaying its welcome. This happened to both Dahmer and The Watcher which started off great and then by the end I was playing video games on my laptop while it mercifully came to an end. Their best stuff is released, consumed in a day, and then forgotten. HBO can ride Succession or Game of Thrones for 3 months, but Netflix has about 3 days with Stranger Things or whatever before everybody who cares binge-watched it and then it’s done. They release everything on that model so a show like 1899 has basically 72 hours to make a good first impression. If it doesn’t they kill it because they don’t have the endless waves of free money like they did 3 years ago.

Needless to say this isn’t sustainable, but instead of making the tough decisions they are tinkering at the edges with stuff like ad-supported and going after sharers.
 
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Lasha

Member
Indeed, IIRC Stranger Things was passed by a ton of networks (I can’t remember if it was ever specifically stated, but I think lots of executives refused to believe adults would watch a show where most of the leads were preteens) before being picked up by Netflix.

They‘re also the rare place where cartoons can be mature but also focused on drama over comedy as seen with Arcane and Castlevania. They’ve learned well from anime, whereas a lot of other networks‘ adult cartoons are pretty much all comedy-focused or if there is drama it’s not the main focus. Not that there’s anything wrong with the latter, but variety is always appreciated.

Netflix is amazing for non-english series and films as well. Netflix pushed hard in Asia and South America before any of the major studios took notice. Netflix also buys the international rights to many American shows which further boosts the service for overseas users. Shows like Squid Game or Alice in Borderland are the culmination of almost a decade of embedding in Asia.
 

Warnen

Don't pass gaas, it is your Destiny!
I don’t even want to start new shows on Netflix unless they are 1 and dones. Why bother.
 

Fbh

Member
Wouldn't say it's just a Netflix thing.
But yeah it's getting hard to care about new shows when you know there's a good chance they'll get cancelled unless they turn into a GOT/Stranger Things S1 type of success-

After Raised by Wolves (HBO) and 1899 (Netflix) in recent times, if Apple ends up cancelling Severance I'm done watching new shit until the entire show is out.
 

ssringo

Member
I felt this way about TV 20 years ago. Basically stopped watching anything new that didn't have a definite end. Stuff like The Haunting of Hill House.
 

Dunlop

Member
I don’t even want to start new shows on Netflix unless they are 1 and dones. Why bother.
I won't bother watching any new series at this point (Wednesday aside...family got me into it).

If my family wasn't using the account I would have cancelled at this point. Not that Netflix is terrible but it is so overpriced versus other streaming services that I have, in Canada anyways
 

gothmog

Gold Member
I stay away from shows for the most part until I know if they are about to stick the landing. Keeps me sane.

Then again I decided to watch Pantheon and that got cancelled even though the second season is already finished. I should just stick to my guns on the waiting for the complete series or at worst for it to be in the final season.
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
The solution is pretty simple; They need to greenlight shorter seasons split into pairs with the renewal option being picked/dropped at the midway point allowing creatives some time and leeway to finish up satisfactorily should they face cancellation.

Quality would improve - pretty much every Netflix show I've ever seen has been obviously padded out to fit the 9/10 episode run- and people would have some assurance of closure even if the show doesn't continue.
 

jakinov

Member
There's a lot of awful shitty takes bere from people who don't know what they are talking about. Everybody cancels a shit ton of shows.

How much does the industry cancel?


Season 1 Renewal Stats for Broadcast networks

ganl48u.png



Does everybody really do it?

Yes, Disney+ has the best track record so far but most of their shows are limited series and by defintion can't be cancelled. For decades, shows get cancelled all the time people just forget about them and don't talk about them on the Internet as much.


Why does Netflix cancel so many shows?

  • Because they make a lot of shows. They released almost 400 shows last year. If you maintain an industry standard cancelaration rate, lets say 60%, 60% of a watermelon is more than 60% of a "grape". So at a raw numbers you'll see more cancellations from Netflix.
    • Also, Netflix cancels all year long generating individual headlines throughout the year; opposed to traditional TV, which cancels most of their shows at once which often times gets summarized in an article at the end of spring.
  • They don't do pilots, pilots is a TV industry concept where instead of ordering an entire season of a show and releasing it, they will isntead order 1 episode, watch it internally and decide if they want more. Netflix does not do this practice, they order "straight-to-series" meaning you get a full season. Thi is because they believe an entire season expresses an idea better than an episode and you get to test it otu with real people. Because Netflix doesn't do pilots that means they'll release shows that could have been otherwise quietly killed before most people even know about it.
    • For example: HBO made a $30M pilot for a game of thrones spinoff which they never aired a few years ago

Why do seemingly popular shows get cancelled?
  • Some of you people are in bubbles. Seeing 20-1000 people talk about a show, or having 75k signatures on a petition does not always extrapolate to the 10s of millions to justify keeping it
  • Costs, an expensive show has to have above average viewership to justify paying so much
    • Big flaw people have here is they look at numbers is that they don't look at all variables, like games sold is a good one where people say 5M is good sales but they ignore the fact that games come in differnet shapes and sizes resulting in some games needing way more sales. 5M would be good for a Japanese game or an indue game. Not a game made in California that takes above average time. Same idea goes towards TV, if you spend game of thrones level budgets on a show you expect at least close to game of thrones level viewership.
    • Not exclusive to Netflix either, HBO cancelled Rome despite good viewership for their channel's standards but it wasn't worth the costs.

Why does Netflix not care about having a catalog of finished shows?
  • If statistics show that your show is already unpopuplar, that most people that start the show end up dropping it, why would you throw in tens or hundreds of millions of dollars to to finish the show. Statisically most people who do find the show later on are going to drop the show before the end anywahys
  • Having a bunch of content that sucks on the catalog doesn't hurt the service, in the same way that most of Spotify and YouTube having mostly crap does not hurt the service. As long as you continue to find value by having something to watch the other stuff does not matter.
  • Their content spend budget is finite, so if they are wasting their money on finishing shows that bring low value, that prevents them from trying to make new shows that bring them high value, prevents them from making new deals with creators and from acquiring things.

Why Netflix throws shit at and the wall and sees what sticks?
  • People have different tastes in shows, some of you complain about otheer content being garbage but you forget that just like video games not everyone likes cinematic games like Uncharted and The Last of US, not everyone like online GaaS, not everyone likes those artsy fartsy story heavy indie games, those super hard 2d platformers or soulsbornes games. People like differnet things.
  • Netflix wants to take more risks with greenlighting, they explicitly said a very long time ago, our cancelleration rate is lower than everybody elses and that they are going to ecnourage their people to take more risks when greenlighting. And they did.

Friendly reminder they also charge a premium for 4k and hdr which to my knowledge no other streaming service does. Fuck em.

Glass half-full vs glass-half empty. Do they charge more for those or do they charge less if you don't need those? If they offered just one plan the reality is the price would be the higher one because streaming services are heavily priced on amount of content and Netflix lower plans are priced around or lower than their compeitors offerings.
 

Jinzo Prime

Member
Yes, Disney+ has the best track record so far but most of their shows are limited series and by defintion can't be cancelled.

Maybe more steaming shows should be limited. Andor, which has a pre-determined beginning, middle, and end, is great. Chernobyl, which was a miniseries, was one of the best things I've ever seen on tv.
 

Dural

Member
This is partly a Netflix view shop algorithm model (I.e. They know EXACTLY when you stop watching and can predict with a high degree of precision the amount of viewer engagement going forward, to a degree tje Nielsens NEVER could) and partly an overly pretentious writer problem, where they set up mystery boxes all over the place and think that viewers will hang in for 15 hours of backstory to explain why a C roll side character cried when the package in the shoebox the character that died in the opening scene turned out to be a cracker jack box from the 50's.

Good grief people, get to the point, write every season as if it could be your last, and respect the damned audience!

At least Reacher, which is amazing, promises to not end on a cliffhanger each season.

This is exactly what they need to do, self contained seasons that have a beginning, middle, and end.


The irony is that Netflix was the one that made shows like Breaking Bad and Mad Men popular. For the first 2-3 seasons those shows had shit ratings on AMC but AMC didnt care about the ratings because it knew the quality is what matters and that the audience would eventually come. Netflix let viewers binge watch the first three seasons and by Season 4, the show was a huge hit on AMC.

The streaming model just doesnt work. HBO had no problems with Westworld being expensive until HBO Max came around and they wasted all their money on streaming trash throwing away their previously high tier standards. Now theyve found themselves in billions of debt and have to cut corners everywhere prematurely ending shows like Westworld which is only going to hurt the faith their audience has in them.

Westworld turned to shit after the first season, I know I wasn't going back after that pretentious bullshit in the second season.
 

ÆMNE22A!C

NO PAIN TRANCE CONTINUE
Content is second to engagement. Goes for all these social media apps and streaming services. They don't care about you enjoying specific content. Only about being online spending time on their platform.

Come on guys

FFS
 
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NickFire

Member
I somewhat agree with the premise. But I suspect cancellations might become the scape goat for a bigger issue. And the bigger issue is so much of the content just sucked.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
Why does Netflix not care about having a catalog of finished shows?
  • If statistics show that your show is already unpopuplar, that most people that start the show end up dropping it, why would you throw in tens or hundreds of millions of dollars to to finish the show. Statisically most people who do find the show later on are going to drop the show before the end anywahys
  • Having a bunch of content that sucks on the catalog doesn't hurt the service, in the same way that most of Spotify and YouTube having mostly crap does not hurt the service. As long as you continue to find value by having something to watch the other stuff does not matter.
  • Their content spend budget is finite, so if they are wasting their money on finishing shows that bring low value, that prevents them from trying to make new shows that bring them high value, prevents them from making new deals with creators and from acquiring things.
See, this is the problem with Netflix. Unlike most of the other major service, they don't have a back catalogue of perennials to bolster their viewers through new content droughts. Remember when they were dropping 100 mill on Friends per year??? That is the value of long running shows that may not manifest in the first few seasons but over time can morph into juggernauts. Actors in one show can become stellar in another and it back feeds their own stuff. Showrunners and writers can learn and improve. A first season "ho hum" can become a season 3-7 masterpiece.

But Netflix has very little to fall back on. Aborted shows, heavily serialized dramas that peter out, bland algorithm derived 4 quadrant appeasing (but pleasing to none) tripe that no one goes back to, they are always falling forward and can NEVER stop. But compare them to the likes of HBO, with numerous fully realized quality shows across the board, covering many genres. THAT should have been the netflix model, not superficial popcorn shows that can only exist in the moment.

Why Netflix throws shit at and the wall and sees what sticks?
  • People have different tastes in shows, some of you complain about otheer content being garbage but you forget that just like video games not everyone likes cinematic games like Uncharted and The Last of US, not everyone like online GaaS, not everyone likes those artsy fartsy story heavy indie games, those super hard 2d platformers or soulsbornes games. People like differnet things.
  • Netflix wants to take more risks with greenlighting, they explicitly said a very long time ago, our cancelleration rate is lower than everybody elses and that they are going to ecnourage their people to take more risks when greenlighting. And they did.
Netflix needs an identity, or at least be more willing to produce stuff with a more limited audience appeal but with much higher engagement WITHIN that limited audience. Instead it feels like every show they make is 10% for me, 10% for someone the polar opposite, 10% off to the side, etc etc. Instead of being 95% MY JAM such that me and 5 million grognards like me stay subbed just for that content while ignoring the rest. I feel like amazon is much better in this regard, they only tripped up with Rings of Power in trying to paint with too broad a brush.
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
I find the "I dont want to watch it in case in gets cancelled" thing dumb.

Do people not enjoy just.. watching a season of television?

If the story doesn't continue, does that somehow make that season not enjoyable?
 
I find the "I dont want to watch it in case in gets cancelled" thing dumb.

Do people not enjoy just.. watching a season of television?

If the story doesn't continue, does that somehow make that season not enjoyable?
Yes. Closure is nice. If I’m enjoying a book I’d be pretty pissed if the author gave up half way through.

In fact, as a George RR Martin fan…
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Yes. Closure is nice. If I’m enjoying a book I’d be pretty pissed if the author gave up half way through.

In fact, as a George RR Martin fan…
But books, much like TV seasons... should have a satisfying self contained story.

Giving up "halfway through" a book isn't a good analogy IMO.

Did you not enjoy reading the Game of Thrones books?
 
But books, much like TV seasons... should have a satisfying self contained story.

Giving up "halfway through" a book isn't a good analogy IMO.

Did you not enjoy reading the Game of Thrones books?
I loved them but I’ve never read them again because of frustration at the lack of an ending and I’m somebody who likes to read my fav books over and over again.

I think Treadstone ending on a cliffhanger with there being zero chance of finding out what happens next serves as a decent enough analogy.

I get what you are saying - moment to moment a cancelled show can still be enjoyable. But we judge things looking back, not during. Unless you’re Buddha.
 

ÆMNE22A!C

NO PAIN TRANCE CONTINUE
But books, much like TV seasons... should have a satisfying self contained story.

Giving up "halfway through" a book isn't a good analogy IMO.

Did you not enjoy reading the Game of Thrones books?

Are you under the impression that Netflix (for example) cares about continuance and closure?
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Are you under the impression that Netflix (for example) cares about continuance and closure?
Are you under the impression you were replying to someone else?

My entire point is that a season of TV should be enjoyable, even w/o the "closure" of some final season. At the very least they should close an arc of a story. If they don't, then that's really not great writing.

There's a difference between wishing something would have a good final season vs. refusing to watch the content at all. There's some great TV out there without final seasons, and it would be a mistake to totally avoid that great content just because it is lacking a "final season."
 

ÆMNE22A!C

NO PAIN TRANCE CONTINUE
Are you under the impression you were replying to someone else?

My entire point is that a season of TV should be enjoyable, even w/o the "closure" of some final season. At the very least they should close an arc of a story. If they don't, then that's really not great writing.

There's a difference between wishing something would have a good final season vs. refusing to watch the content at all. There's some great TV out there without final seasons, and it would be a mistake to totally avoid that great content just because it is lacking a "final season."

Yeah and that's operating from within a reality construct where that's a peasible reality to expect.

I'm not sure what's so difficult about this all.
 
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IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Yeah and that's operating from within a reality construct where that's a peasible reality to expect.

I'm not sure what's so difficult about this all.
It's not a "feasible" reality to expect a season of a TV show to be satisfying on it's own? To have it's own story arc that closes?

That's like.. TV writing 101..

Do you guys not enjoy ANYTHING until the very end of a story and then retroactively have enjoyment or no enjoyment or something?

Makes no damn sense.
 
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ÆMNE22A!C

NO PAIN TRANCE CONTINUE
Are you under the impression you were replying to someone else?

My entire point is that a season of TV should be enjoyable, even w/o the "closure" of some final season. At the very least they should close an arc of a story. If they don't, then that's really not great writing.

There's a difference between wishing something would have a good final season vs. refusing to watch the content at all. There's some great TV out there without final seasons, and it would be a mistake to totally avoid that great content just because it is lacking a "final season."

You expect effort for the consumer.

Smh...

Give them a couple seasons > subscriptions and that's that
 

ÆMNE22A!C

NO PAIN TRANCE CONTINUE
It's not a "feasible" reality to expect a season of a TV show to be satisfying on it's own? To have it's own story arc that closes?

That's like.. TV writing 101..

Do you guys not enjoy ANYTHING until the very end of a story and then retroactively have enjoyment or no enjoyment or something?

Makes no damn sense.

Again your mind operates from within a construct where what you describe is a (without saying) reality. Wake up bro.

We all would like that don't we?

It's a business model
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Again your mind operates from within a construct where what you describe is a (without saying) reality. Wake up bro.

We all would like that don't we?

It's a business model
The flying fuck are you even saying to me?

It's like you are responding to someone else.
 

Nester99

Member
I was keen to start 1889 as I loved Dark.. once I heard it sis not get a second season I removed it from my watch list, what’s the point now?
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
What is scary is that Netflix is also the only profitable streamer. So that means either 1) they are successful despite their perceived ineptitude, or 2) they figured out that this is actually the only way to run a streaming service profitably.

Streaming is in for a rude awakening once the finance people fully digest that rates aren't 0% anymore.
I think #2 is the answer.
 

jakinov

Member
But Netflix has very little to fall back on. Aborted shows, heavily serialized dramas that peter out, bland algorithm derived 4 quadrant appeasing (but pleasing to none) tripe that no one goes back to, they are always falling forward and can NEVER stop. But compare them to the likes of HBO, with numerous fully realized quality shows across the board, covering many genres. THAT should have been the netflix model, not superficial popcorn shows that can only exist in the moment.
Netflix is trying to become the biggest general purpose streamer. Not make art. They want to create a big business that makes a lot of money. HBO shows have pretty crap viewership compared to everyone else. The exceptions are game of thrones related projects, Sopranos and Euphoria.

Netflix domestic subscribers dwarfs traditional HBO's. And traditional HBO subscribers are not all there for the TV shows, they are their for their licensed movies. Netflix covers signficantly more genres than HBO does. Netflix model is working great for them. They are the only profitable streamer, have the lowest churn rates in the industry and in terms of the artsy fartsy they do pretty good at award season.

Netflix needs an identity, or at least be more willing to produce stuff with a more limited audience appeal but with much higher engagement WITHIN that limited audience. Instead it feels like every show they make is 10% for me, 10% for someone the polar opposite, 10% off to the side, etc etc. Instead of being 95% MY JAM such that me and 5 million grognards like me stay subbed just for that content while ignoring the rest. I feel like amazon is much better in this regard, they only tripped up with Rings of Power in trying to paint with too broad a brush.
They don't need an identity. They just need to continue to give lots of people value. There's going to be people that don't like anything Netflix makes but there's going to be people that don't like anything HBO or anyone else makes too. If you feel certain shows aren't enough for you that's on the creatives of that invidual show. Netflix invests in the pretentious slowburn TV too with shows like the crown. But they arne't going to exclusively focus on those style of shows like HBO does because not everybody is into them. Netflix will keep a niche audience happy as long as it's cheap to do so. Nobody even Amazon or HBO will keep a show around with a small audience if it's expensive.
 

BossLackey

Gold Member
Yeah no shit. You can't make several new shows, cancel them once people get invested, then make more new shows and then act surprised when nobody watched and got invested.


They have no fucking idea what they are doing and their god awful management in the past 3 years has sealed its fate. It had a supremacy and yet still lost out over a newcomer like Disney+ not because its better, but because they completely fucked themselves into a hole over its own content.

It's crazy how far Netflix has fallen. From THE streaming service that everybody had and used daily with loads of awesome content both 3rd party and original to...this.

I agree, they have NO idea what the hell they're doing.
 

Alebrije

Member
Same happens on Amazon and I guess other stream companies. Problem is they are filled of tons of series so costumers are just moving from one to another..I also blame current young generation (10-25 years) they move from one topic to another, get bored fast of something.

So if your serie is not really really good like Game of T, House of D, Strager Things, etc...surely after season 1 or 2 will be cancelled.

I have seen great series cancelled on Amazon this 2022,. Others canned like Tales from the Loop.

Guess companies must move to quality over quantity like the old Nintendo Seal of Nes era, otherwise this will never end.
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
It's crazy how far Netflix has fallen. From THE streaming service that everybody had and used daily with loads of awesome content both 3rd party and original to...this.

I agree, they have NO idea what the hell they're doing.
Everyone basically still has netflix though lol

They are just endlessly bitching about it online, which is a problem Netflix should solve.. but the reason they aren't changing drastically is their sub numbers have never REALLY fallen. They have basically been stagnant for a while.

Q4 financially results may show a different picture, but for now.. Q3 2022 they returned to growth, and hit another peak.
 
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JayK47

Member
Exactly. Why even bother watching anything. I cancelled Netflix a long while ago partly because of this.
 

jadedm17

Member
Santa Clarita Diet still pains me to this day.
It's a feedback loop they stole from FOX and I'll admit I'm part of the problem because I'll never trust them again.
Enjoy your shows - I'm looking at you Wednesday - but don't expect Netflix to care enough to wrap them up neatly.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
If the story doesn't continue, does that somehow make that season not enjoyable?
Most definitely. Lots of shows these days are heavily serialized and are LOADED with mystery boxes, so the entire first season is just laying groundwork. Folks are right to be upset if the network allows this.
 

VN1X

Banned
hall of fame game missed the point GIF


So in order for Netflix to improve, everyone should stop watching Netflix and do something else. Amazing idea.
Well err yeah, that's how anything works lol.

If you want a big corporation to improve then you stop supporting their current practices. Ever heard of the phrase "voting with your wallet"?
 

The Cockatrice

I'm retarded?
Well err yeah, that's how anything works lol.

If you want a big corporation to improve then you stop supporting their current practices. Ever heard of the phrase "voting with your wallet"?

No it doesnt. I already discussed this in the thread why, wont do it again. Read if u will.
 
Well err yeah, that's how anything works lol.

If you want a big corporation to improve then you stop supporting their current practices. Ever heard of the phrase "voting with your wallet"?
Companies keep putting out god awful woke shit even though it keeps crashing and burning.

Top Gun 2 didn’t go near politics and was a smash hit.

Culture is more important than money. It used to be that money was the root of everything in business. Now it appears that cultural influence is worth more to board members.
 
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murmulis

Member
Disappointed 1889 cancelled too, only watched because I love Dark. I’ve got to the point where I don’t watch any new shows release by Netflix because of the cancellations after 1 season.

I just mostly watch my Asian shows and other foreign shows. Korean shows especially since most of the stories are are contained and finish in one season. But you get the outliers like Kingdom getting multiple seasons because it’s became so popular.
Tbh 1899 was pretty much self-contained and the next season would have, most likely, been worse. When I started watching I didn't even know that more seasons were planned.
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Most definitely. Lots of shows these days are heavily serialized and are LOADED with mystery boxes, so the entire first season is just laying groundwork. Folks are right to be upset if the network allows this.
If a first season of a show isn't enjoyable on it's own; why do you even want a second season? lol

You guys are just not really getting my point IMO.

Everyone including me would rather shows continue, I just think it shouldn't stop people from watching early seasons.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
If a first season of a show isn't enjoyable on it's own; why do you even want a second season? lol

You guys are just not really getting my point IMO.

It's not just about enjoying specific scenes, it's having narrative payoff. Imagine watching Se7en and it stops right when Spacey pulls out the box. Was the film not enjoyable up till then? If folks complain there was not resolution to "what's in the box" are they not getting your point?

Heavily serialized mystery box shows often ask viewers to endure confusing scenes or a disjointed narrative with the promise of revelations and emotional payoff later. If that never comes because the show is canceled its probably eve worse than if the show DOES continue and just falls flat.
 
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