rofif
Can’t Git Gud
There is such thing as bad design. Many gamers nowadays think that harder is better. Maybe if you watch streamer beat his head against ty he boss for 23 hours.
Des and dark soul are much better designed…. Well at least dark souls
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Des and dark soul are much better designed…. Well at least dark souls
Little Chicken
Gold Member
The update hasn't dropped on Xbox yet so you can still play the AUTHENTIC version via Game Pass 
If more people playing it results in us getting a sequel with a bigger budget then who cares. The game is great.
If more people playing it results in us getting a sequel with a bigger budget then who cares. The game is great.
There's challenging and there's bad design / artificial difficulty...
Anyway, anyone that's apparently 'gud' will already have completed it so won't be affected by the patch lol..
ChuckeRearmed
Member
I think Lies of P is harder than From's game due to either awkward parry or too aggressive enemies.
H
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Yeah, cannot wait to see how they will change Oz settings considering how impressive was their Pinocchio take.
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GymWolf
Gold Member
Some of these gud people haven't bought the game yet.
And since on gaf people care about reviews to value what are good games or not, it seems like the game is not that bad design wise with that high MC...
So yet again, some people are mad, majority are happy with how the game was.
It is what it is.
Jadsey
Member
Apparently they have to certify the patch....apparently that has been known to take weeks with Xbox!
PS5 got it straight away btw.
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
Maybe souls is more than just inflated difficulty?
GymWolf
Gold Member
But the game seems very good in many aspects so it is not the case here neither?! I know you have a strange hate boner with this one (ds2 looking better, i'm still laughing) but the common opinion seems different...
I see cool trash mobs, i see cool bosses, i see cool abilities, i see cool weapons with a nice custom system, i see a good art design for the locations...but sure the game is only inflated difficulty (maybe because you are bad at it).
Arthur morgan suuuuuure.gif
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Flutta
Banned
Well That’s not true. You can ask shu about that
I mean you could say that about most souls games tbh. I beat my head for two days trying to beat some of the bosses in BB and Sekiro etc.
If a true souls player says the game has bad game design then i would believe it.
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
I love it. I just don’t like difficulty spikes
Flutta
Banned
This is basically me.
I tried BG3 to see what all the fuzz is about, turned out i didn’t know how to play or what to do. I was just randomly clicking on stuff like and idiot for 10h and gave up in the end. Do you see me crying about it like a lill bitch? No i move on to something else.
Sadly people feel entitled to everything especially if it’s popular.
SCB3
Member
Demon's Souls is poorly designed in a few ways, but being a first in the genre its acceptable
TheDarkPhantom
Gold Member
I see a cornucopia of retards have entered the thread so I'll repeat something I wrote in another thread a few weeks ago. This isn't specifically about difficulty, it's about a vocal minority of crying about XYZ and wanting to fundamentally alter the core design/artistic vision of what the game was meant to be.
Let me give a simple, recent example: Baldur's Gate 3. I haven't played it yet, I'm excited to eventually do so. The game is a huge hit both critically and commercially, it has a lot of fans. The game is *far* from accessible though and is definitely not for everybody. It makes no compromises in it's D&D design and deep, RPG systems. Now suppose I buy the game, play for a few hours and simply find it all too overwhelming/obtuse. The solution is to whine like a little bitch about it until the devs cave in and completely neuter the intended experience, right? Fuck no! (and thank the lord Larian isn't listening to any kind of nonsense).
So what do I do in this scenario? I accept that type of game *isn't for me* and move on with my life, end of fucking story. See, we now live in the time of trigger warnings, pronouns, diversity quotas. The pendulum however is going to swing back and it's going to swing back *hard*, I hope the beta boys are ready for it, go join Era if you want to live in a safety bubble in the meantime.
Moral of the story, not every game/book/movie/TV show/song etc etc is for all people, it never will be and never *should* be. Artists should create the art and trust that it will find it's audience. If the art is good enough it ALWAYS does. All the glowing reviews of Lies of P were based on that original, unpatched vision. The many positive posts I and other Souls vets made (I never said ALL Souls vets agree) about the game were based on that intended design, look no further than *huge* Souls fans like Iron Pineapple. I suspect the minority of vets *still* complaining haven't come to terms with P's various systems, I don't exaggerate when I say all the tools are there to make the game EASY.
Balance changes are cool and common place, that's not what happened here. What happened was gross overcompensation to cater to a minority who fundamentally don't jive with this glorious subgenre of game and want to turn it into something it isn't and never was. 2023 has spoiled us for choice, go find some games that truly click with and you can write passionately about, if this ain't it just accept this ain't it.
Let me give a simple, recent example: Baldur's Gate 3. I haven't played it yet, I'm excited to eventually do so. The game is a huge hit both critically and commercially, it has a lot of fans. The game is *far* from accessible though and is definitely not for everybody. It makes no compromises in it's D&D design and deep, RPG systems. Now suppose I buy the game, play for a few hours and simply find it all too overwhelming/obtuse. The solution is to whine like a little bitch about it until the devs cave in and completely neuter the intended experience, right? Fuck no! (and thank the lord Larian isn't listening to any kind of nonsense).
So what do I do in this scenario? I accept that type of game *isn't for me* and move on with my life, end of fucking story. See, we now live in the time of trigger warnings, pronouns, diversity quotas. The pendulum however is going to swing back and it's going to swing back *hard*, I hope the beta boys are ready for it, go join Era if you want to live in a safety bubble in the meantime.
Moral of the story, not every game/book/movie/TV show/song etc etc is for all people, it never will be and never *should* be. Artists should create the art and trust that it will find it's audience. If the art is good enough it ALWAYS does. All the glowing reviews of Lies of P were based on that original, unpatched vision. The many positive posts I and other Souls vets made (I never said ALL Souls vets agree) about the game were based on that intended design, look no further than *huge* Souls fans like Iron Pineapple. I suspect the minority of vets *still* complaining haven't come to terms with P's various systems, I don't exaggerate when I say all the tools are there to make the game EASY.
Balance changes are cool and common place, that's not what happened here. What happened was gross overcompensation to cater to a minority who fundamentally don't jive with this glorious subgenre of game and want to turn it into something it isn't and never was. 2023 has spoiled us for choice, go find some games that truly click with and you can write passionately about, if this ain't it just accept this ain't it.
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FunkMiller
Gold Member
Yeah, I might pick it up on Ps5 if it looks like its going to take ages.
And Phil wonders why the Xbox lags behind so much
Punished Miku
Human Rights Subscription Service
Why? I'd like to play this and they just patched it. Guess you can go play something else. Shame we can't have basic options and both play it.
Buggy Loop
Member
All From software games have been patched
They think they know better than the fucking dev, hilarious, can’t wait for a dev to troll these peoples with an infinite health bar boss, GIT GUD
tusharngf
Member
Steam got the update instantly but on gamepass i dont see this update. They are always late with certification and bullshit. This is why xbox brand is going down day by day. I am still waiting for the patch to download for ng plus build.
Ar¢tos
Member
Splitting the player base with difficulty options in souls games with MP would be good argument, specially if a game doesn't have crossplay.
You couldn't have "normal" mode players invading "easy" mode players or "easy" mode players be summoned to help "normal" mode players.
Punished Miku
Human Rights Subscription Service
Yeah, that part does make sense. I think there could be some potential options though that wouldn't take a lot of effort. You can already disable invasions and stuff if you want. Turning it back on could just require normal mode, but yeah that is a fair point.
Duchess
Member
These days, there would be arguments about how this discriminates against less able players.
I think that GoldenEye and Timesplitters actually got things right - the higher the difficulty, the more objectives you needed to complete, meaning you would have to head deeper into a level, where more dangerous enemies were, and therefore running the increase risk of failure.
SCB3
Member
Ah yes another good example, it allows players to still play the game but you get more stuff for doing the harder content be it difficulty/Challenge, Lore or even better weapons/gear
RagnarokIV
Battlebus imprisoning me \m/ >.< \m/
Loving the new cat photo mate.
BbMajor7th
Member
I've beat all the souls games, busted my balls to eventually beat Sekiro, and I have completed both Nioh games. These are exactly my sort of games. I would say pre-patch Lies of P was more frustrating than challenging. It felt a little off and it made me lose interest quickly. The games does feel better following the updates, though I did flatten the Archbishop dude on my first try, so they might have over-nerfed that one. Going through it now, it feels 'reasonably challenging', perhaps ever so slightly on the easy side, but that's the thing: I've played thousands of hours of these types of games, they shouldn't feel like a super slog to someone already very familiar with the mechanics and genre - if they were they'd be impenetrable to anyone who's less prepared.Well That’s not true. You can ask shu about that
I mean you could say that about most souls games tbh. I beat my head for two days trying to beat some of the bosses in BB and Sekiro etc.
If a true souls player says the game has bad game design then i would believe it.
This was a good move by the developer.
What is this 'creative vision' bullshit? Chances are this was balanced as best as they could get it based on internal testing, but once it was out in the wild they had a lot more data to better tune it. Team Ninja ran multiple alphas on Nioh and even put out feedback forms for players to fill in. That community feedback directly informed the design of the final product - did they sacrifice their creative vision, too?
You can bet your bottom dollar that if Larian noticed a sizeable percentage of players were ditching the game within the first few hours, and more still were ditching the game at the same pinch points further on, they would look at ways to address that. That's not what's happening - the systems take time to adjust to, but people are sticking with it and figuring it out. If Round 8 made these changes to Lies of P, it's because they did see that kind of attrition and didn't want the game to they'd spent years working on to underperform because they'd over-tuned the difficulty. They want to reach a sizeable audience, make a healthy return and develop more games in the future.
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Most community feedback isnt worth much, most humans are lazy and unintelligent, its just the truth. Bug fixes are one thing, balance adjustments should only be a thing if something was unintended by the creator and they believe it is failing to live up to their vision/goal or isn't working as intended. That being said you can gain some insight you may have missed from feedback, bouncing back off of others can be important if it brings attension to something that you may have missed in your process.
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BbMajor7th
Member
Subjective statements aren't 'just the truth', but even if they were, you'd still want 'most people' to buy your games. That's how you keep a business afloat.
TheDarkPhantom
Gold Member
Incorrect and here's why. Lies of P is a Gamepass game, I'd say *at least* half those posting in the OP are playing through GP but feel free to look through the thread and do your own tally. If they're seeing "attrition" it's from the GP crowd who downloaded it for FREE, realized how tough it was and started complaining/moved on. BG3 doesn't have this problem. Anyone spending their hard earned money is going to do enough research and know what they are getting into. If after that they play it and find out it's still not for them then too fucking bad.
Again, balance changes make sense, completely watering down the experience doesn't and that's pretty much what happened here post-patch, it really is as simple as that. The stuff they *should* have patched - number one being parry window - wasn't even addressed, not much more to say, it is what it is.
Not subjective just look at our world and natural human behavior. Anywho your second point brings me back to a point in my original post, things like this make me wish gaming were more niche like it used to be so they didnt have to appeal to the masses to stay afloat at the cost of vision/quality of a game.
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BbMajor7th
Member
1. NeoGAF threads are not representative of... well, anything really. We don't know what the platform split is.
2. Most developers don't have your attitude and it's why they're still in business.
3. We don't know what the developer does - people who worked on the game might've been worried about the difficulty before launch and plans for further balancing might've been underway before it even shipped.
TheDarkPhantom
Gold Member
lol, despite claiming to be a Souls vet it seems you're rather ignorant on how/why this genre was created and what the *creative vision* (a term you're no doubt growing ever fond of) behind it is but here, edify yourself straight from the horse's mouth, the man who literally created the genre that inspired all these games that followed. Worked out quite well for this developer, still very much "in business", thank God they have my attitude
"A new interview with Hidetaka Miyazaki has the company boss saying making difficult games is FromSoftware’s identity, hinting they won’t change regardless of how many other sites complain.
“We are always looking to improve, but, in our games specifically, hardship is what gives meaning to the experience. So it’s not something we’re willing to abandon at the moment. It’s our identity,” Miyazaki said to The New Yorker."
Hidetaka Miyazaki Sees Death as a Feature, Not a Bug
Miyazaki has created the most difficult games of the century. In his latest, Elden Ring, he wants a broader audience to feel the pain.
BbMajor7th
Member
Sekiro just passed 10 million units; Elden Ring absolutely dwarfed Horizon Forbidden West at launch. Cuphead, Celeste, and Hollow Knight absolutely stomp the likes of Gris and ABZU. Hard games still sell just fine; Lies of P's problem isn't the intended difficulty, it's artificial difficulty created by shortcomings in design.
Punished Miku
Human Rights Subscription Service
Souls has really destroyed the ability of people to even discuss difficulty balancing. If you can void literally anything with "git gud" then there is basically nothing that is unbalanced. And you definitely see this mindset when discussing Souls games. There absolutely is stuff that's not very well balanced, particularly in Elden Ring. Dunkey's Elden Ring video discussed this and he had to preface the statement by showing video of how he beat the game 4x already just to prove he's "allowed" to discuss game balancing. It's a real brain rot situation.
TerribleAtThisGame
Member
Every Souls game went through several balance patches and a ton of SNES games especially had difficulty options so this argument never makes any sense. Super Ghouls N Ghosts and Contra III have difficulty options so Hardcore Action games my ass. Do we have to go back to 1988 to get "real gamerz" games with zero options and bullshit difficulty because they were technically sub-par arcade ports?
BbMajor7th
Member
Yup, it's very grating. I mostly play games in the 'git gud' genre, but it's almost impossible to discuss them online. On the one side, you have the 'I play games to relax / have fun' crowd who take every opportunity to tell people try-hard Souls games are beneath them; then you have the other side, who think mastering tough games is some kind of status symbol that separates the filthy casuals. Very mind-numbing stuff.
Chuck Berry
Gold Member
You should send this memo to the dopes behind Steelrising
Reizo Ryuu
Member
Weird, felt this game was very easy for a souls game (so far), it starts off really reserved whereas the fromsoft souls games just throw you face first into hell the second you gain control.
Oh well.
Oh well.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
The update hasn't dropped on Xbox yet so you can still play the AUTHENTIC version via Game Pass
If more people playing it results in us getting a sequel with a bigger budget then who cares. The game is great.
Playing on gamepass tonight and beat a couple of bosses...feels good to know I'm leet
Raven117
Member
This. I stayed away from the game for now because of this very fact.
Was patched earlier today so you suck lol..