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Occupy Wall St - Occupy Everywhere, Occupy Together!

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empty vessel

empty vessel

Member
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
Such as North Korea?
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I don't know what "such as North Korea" means. I certainly support efforts to reduce the risk of war between North Korea and the US. That doesn't mean I support misguided reports written by volunteer members. (Much of the NLG's work is not done by paid staff, but by various volunteer members who operate quasi independently in committees and subcommittees. That's why the resolution repudiating the report had to "authorize[] all relevant in Guild leadership to take whatever steps are necessary to carry out this resolution, if those directly responsible for maintenance of the websites refuse." The NLG does not even maintain the committee and subcommittee websites.)

By voting and donating to the Democratic Party, does that mean you support everything every Democratic politician and Democratic party member does?

Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
Also the fact that you couldn't be bothered to do this before is pretty pathetic.
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I agree with you that people should not wait and immediately support the National Lawyers Guild.
 
DownLikeBCPowder

DownLikeBCPowder

Member
nilbog21 said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_Fpm0ZbKRlg

has this been posted? this is amazing.. been a long time since i felt proud to be american..
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In general I agree with this fellow (especially on ending the Federal Reserve), but I have to strongly disagree that these "local officers" don't have a choice. Obviously dollars are more important to them if they are standing in front of you with riot gear. There's a line and it's not hard to tell what side the men in suits and weapons are on. How long do you delay their responsibility? Just following orders? Until they have kicked in your door..? Yeah. If they "supported you", they wouldn't be looking down the barrel of a gas launcher.
 
M

Manos: The Hans of Fate

Banned
empty vessel said:
That doesn't mean I support misguided reports written by volunteer members. (Much of the NLG's work is not done by paid staff, but by various volunteer members who operate quasi independently in committees and subcommittees.
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Sounds like they need greater regulation. That said it is disheartening that "volunteer members" are lesser than "paid members" to you.


That's why the resolution repudiating the report had to "authorize[] all relevant in Guild leadership to take whatever steps are necessary to carry out this resolution, if those directly responsible for maintenance of the websites refuse."
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quote]5) The National Lawyers Guild demands that the reports be modified to remove all references to the
National Lawyers Guild,
6) The National Lawyers Guild demands that the reports be removed from nlg.org and any Guild-affiliated websites, immediately,[/quote]

Submitted by Daniel Hornal
[email protected]

So will you make sure Daniel actually carries out his job? Even though he hasn't for the longest time.

The NLG does not even maintain the committee and subcommittee websites.)
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http://www.nlg.org/
http://www.nlg.org/korea/default.htm
http://www.nlg.org/korea/2003delegation_report.html

Hmm, that looks like it's own the same exact server and domain name

Are you telling me the NLG is so incompetent or impotent that they can't take down something on their website?

By voting and donating to the Democratic Party, does that mean you support everything every Democratic politician and Democratic party member does?
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When have I said I ever gave money to the Democrats?


I agree
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Well it's good for you to admit to your failings and being pathetic.
 
empty vessel

empty vessel

Member
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
Sounds like they need greater regulation. That said it is disheartening that "volunteer members" are lesser than "paid members" to you.
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It isn't about regulation. It's an organization dedicated to serving the public interest, and therefore is dependent upon (and encourages) the work of voluntary members. If it could pay staff to do all the things that members do on a voluntary basis, it undoubtedly would. I personally like use of an active membership (many public interest legal organizations utilize this to accomplish work), but it also has obvious drawbacks.

Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
Hmm, that looks like it's own the same exact server and domain name.
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That does appear so, but you appear to be linking to stale pages without access from the main site. It appears you can only get to those pages if you have clicked there from an older link (or have the old link bookmarked or just know the url offhand). If you go through the main NLG site, clicking on the international committee takes you here: http://www.nlginternational.org. And if you go to http://www.nlg.org/korea/ (instead of http://www.nlg.org/korea/default), you get a message saying the KPP has moved and (ironically) directing to the same website to which ChiTownBuffalo linked.

Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
Are you telling me the NLG is so incompetent or impotent that they can't take down something on their website?
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I assume they think that because the international committee pages are not accessible through the links from their page that they are effectively "down." Again, because the NLG is dedicated to the public interest, it is resource-deprived. If you would like to improve the organization's efficiency, I would strongly encourage you to donate to it. Maybe you could even endow a dedicated IT position.

Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
When have I said I ever gave money to the Democrats?
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You have claimed to vote Democratic and to be a "registered Democrat." Whether or not you have given money, you endorse it (and empower it through your vote). By the way, seeing as how you like to denigrate people for failing to financially support organizations they endorse, why is it that you haven't donated to the Democratic party? Is this yet another example of you saying words you perceive effective to "win" an argument (never on substantive grounds, mind you) without regard to their general applicability. Do you consider yourself a hypocrite? That doesn't have any bearing on whether you are one, but I admit to being curious about the cognitive dissonance in your head. Or I suppose the psychologists are right and most "debate" that occurs does not involve the expression of genuine ideas but rather those ideas intended to score points. I feel sorry for you though, because even though the only reason you seem to engage in debate is to win, you are terrible at winning.

I assume by now you must realize that arguing over this is utterly silly and a complete waste of time.
 
B

Baraka in the White House

2-Terms of Kombat
DLDbT.gif


The hell happened in this thread?
 
M

Manos: The Hans of Fate

Banned
DOO13ER said:
DLDbT.gif


The hell happened in this thread?
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Empty kinda went crazy and start spending money to try and annoy me. lol

empty vessel said:
It isn't about regulation.
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Why not? They are an unregulated corporation after all.
The National Lawyers Guild would not be able to continue its work without the generous support of our donors. The NLG is a 501(c)4 nonprofit organization; all tax-deductible contributions should be made to the National Lawyers Guild Foundation.
Click to expand...

That does appear so, but you appear to be linking to stale pages without access from the main site. It appears you can only get to those pages if you have clicked there from an older link (or have the old link bookmarked or just know the url offhand). If you go through the main NLG site, clicking on the international committee takes you here: http://www.nlginternational.org. And if you go to http://www.nlg.org/korea/ (instead of http://www.nlg.org/korea/default), you get a message saying the KPP has moved and (ironically) directing to the same website to which ChiTownBuffalo linked.
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Actually those pages came up via a normal Google search, with no way to know if they were stale or not.


I assume they think that because the international committee websites are not accessible through the links from their page that they are effectively "down."
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Well they would be wrong since it's been cached in google, and more importantly can be found via google and any existing links from the time the reports first emerged.

Again, because the NLG is dedicated to the public interest, it is resource-deprived.
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Along with common sense.

If you would like to improve the organization's efficiency, I would strongly encourage you to donate to it. Maybe you could even endow a dedicated IT position.
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I'd rather give money (well and I did) to the animal shelter where my wife and I adopted our cat from. At least real good occurs.



You have claimed to vote Democratic and to be a "registered Democrat." Whether or not you have given money, you endorse it (and empower it through your vote).
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I thought you said that individual voting is powerless to have an effective in this current society, so how can it have an empowering effect? I mean otherwise why can Occupy Wall Street just try and run candidates?

By the way, seeing as how you like to denigrate people for failing to financially support organizations they endorse, why is it that you haven't donated to the Democratic party?
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Because corporations save me the need. :)

Is this yet another example of you saying words you perceive effective to "win" an argument (never on substantive grounds, mind you) without regard to their general applicability.
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Empty, I don't know why you wish to try and endow me with your characteristics.


Do you consider yourself a hypocrite? That doesn't have any bearing on whether you are one, but I admit to being curious about the cognitive dissonance in your head.
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This is rich for someone who whores out for Hugo Chavez at the drop of a hat.

I suppose the psychologists are right and most "debate" that occurs does not involve the expression of genuine ideas but rather those ideas intended to score points. I feel sorry for you though, because even though the only reason you seem to engage in debate is to win, you are terrible at winning.
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Oh boy here we go with the end high whining again. Look man it's okay to admit you just gave money to a awful organization because you didn't think.

I assume by now you must realize that arguing over this is utterly silly and a complete waste of time.
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No, your attempt to hide your ignorance for a group whose members and volunteers would produce such an ignorant and atrocious report is hardly a waste of time.
 
empty vessel

empty vessel

Member
NYPD Still Barring Journalists From Covering Protests During Obama Fundraiser in Midtown

Last night, demonstrators who arrived in midtown to protest a Barack Obama fundraiser found themselves corralled into a “free speech zone” on 53rd Street and 7th Avenue. Reporters–like Josh Harkinson from Mother Jones and Meg Robertson from MSNBC –were not allowed near the penned-in demonstrators, despite Commissioner Ray Kelly‘s recent orders that the NYPD was to play nice with journalists covering OWS. This directive came after the events of the November 14th raid of Zuccotti and the Day of Protest on the 17th left 26 reporters arrested.

Gothamist reports that journos trying to get near the pen were told by police officers that the demonstrators were in a “frozen zone,” and not able to leave. Journalists were barred from speaking to them.
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M

Manos: The Hans of Fate

Banned
empty vessel said:
Perfect! You know where you'd feel right at home? North Korea.
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I see you trying to claim people are having rights violated...despite being able to protest and speak...you know I think you're going to fit in well with the NLG.

I think the thread about Chavez has got you down with everyone making fun of your hero.


Point being, they're infringing on people's freedoms and rights, by means of a sort of controlled censorship in favour of political pandering. That's my assumption anyway.
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What censorship and infringing are you talking about? The people were allowed to protest.
 
Dude Abides

Dude Abides

Banned
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
Why not? They are an unregulated corporation after all.
Click to expand...

Quote:
The National Lawyers Guild would not be able to continue its work without the generous support of our donors. The NLG is a 501(c)4 nonprofit organization; all tax-deductible contributions should be made to the National Lawyers Guild Foundation.
Click to expand...

501(c)(4) does not mean they're a corporation. NLG an unincorporated association. No wonder you struggled in your Corporations class.
 
B

BigBoss

Member
The The Republican Governor’s Association met in Florida this week and featured pollster Frank Luntz, who offered a coaching session for attendees about how they should communicate to the public. Yahoo! News’ Chris Moody was there, and captured some of Luntz’s comments on Occupy Wall Street.

Luntz told attendees that he’s “scared of this anti-Wall Street effort. I’m frightened to death.” The pollster warned that the movement is “having an impact on what the American people think of capitalism.” So the pollster offered some advice for them about how to fight back. Here’s a few snippets of what he said, according to Moody:

– Don’t Mention Capitalism: Luntz said that his polling research found that “The public…still prefers capitalism to socialism, but they think capitalism is immoral. And if we’re seen as defenders of quote, Wall Street, end quote, we’ve got a problem.”

– Empathize With The 99 Percent Protesters: Luntz instructed attendees to tell protesters that they “get it”: “First off, here are three words for you all: ‘I get it.’ … ‘I get that you’re. I get that you’ve seen inequality. I get that you want to fix the system.”

– Don’t Say Bonus: Luntz told Republicans to re-frame the concept of the bonus payment — which bailed-out Wall Street doles out to its employees during holidays — as “pay for performance” instead.

– Don’t Mention The Middle Class Because Americans Don’t Trust Republicans To Defend It: “They cannot win if the fight is on hardworking taxpayers,” Luntz instructed the audience. “We can say we defend the ‘middle class’ and the public will say, I’m not sure about that. But defending ‘hardworking taxpayers’ and Republicans have the advantage.”

– Don’t Talk About Taxing The Rich: Luntz reminded Republicans that Americans actually do want to tax the rich, so he reccommended they instead say that the government “takes from the rich.”

Frank Luntz is no minor pollster. He is considered to be one of the top political communications experts in the world, having provided consulting to many of the world’s top corporations, politicians, and special interest groups. That Luntz is admitting the impact of Occupy Wall Street and the 99 Percent and telling closed-door meetings of Republicans that it frightens him is a huge victory for the movement.
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http://thinkprogress.org/special/2011/12/01/379365/frank-luntz-occupy-wall-street/
 
N

nib95

Banned
BigBoss said:
http://thinkprogress.org/special/2011/12/01/379365/frank-luntz-occupy-wall-street/
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Haha awesome. And damn he's good.

Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
What victory can they actually achieve with no real message, leaders, or participation in the political process?
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The fact that there ins't a specific leader shows that this is an overreaching movement that involves all. There is no top of the chain, everyone is of equal position and standing. And no real message? The problem isn't that there is no real message, it's that there's so many problems with the current state of affairs, there are too many 'messages' to be able to encapsulate them in to one. Often movements such as these don't have political standing, nor do they have leaders (see the Arab spring uprisings) yet they come together to overthrow or re-shape the countries they fight for one-the-less.
 
I

Ivan A Nguyen

Member
Full list of all 10 talking points. It's made me sick to my stomach.
1. Don't say 'capitalism.'
"I'm trying to get that word removed and we're replacing it with either 'economic freedom' or 'free market,' " Luntz said. "The public . . . still prefers capitalism to socialism, but they think capitalism is immoral. And if we're seen as defenders of quote, Wall Street, end quote, we've got a problem."
2. Don't say that the government 'taxes the rich.' Instead, tell them that the government 'takes from the rich.'
"If you talk about raising taxes on the rich," the public responds favorably, Luntz cautioned. But "if you talk about government taking the money from hardworking Americans, the public says no. Taxing, the public will say yes."
3. Republicans should forget about winning the battle over the 'middle class.' Call them 'hardworking taxpayers.'
"They cannot win if the fight is on hardworking taxpayers. We can say we defend the 'middle class' and the public will say, I'm not sure about that. But defending 'hardworking taxpayers' and Republicans have the advantage."
4. Don't talk about 'jobs.' Talk about 'careers.'
"Everyone in this room talks about 'jobs,'" Luntz said. "Watch this."
He then asked everyone to raise their hand if they want a "job." Few hands went up. Then he asked who wants a "career." Almost every hand was raised.
"So why are we talking about jobs?"
5. Don't say 'government spending.' Call it 'waste.'
"It's not about 'government spending.' It's about 'waste.' That's what makes people angry."
6. Don't ever say you're willing to 'compromise.'
"If you talk about 'compromise,' they'll say you're selling out. Your side doesn't want you to 'compromise.' What you use in that to replace it with is 'cooperation.' It means the same thing. But cooperation means you stick to your principles but still get the job done. Compromise says that you're selling out those principles."
7. The three most important words you can say to an Occupier: 'I get it.'
"First off, here are three words for you all: 'I get it.' . . . 'I get that you're angry. I get that you've seen inequality. I get that you want to fix the system."
Then, he instructed, offer Republican solutions to the problem.
8. Out: 'Entrepreneur.' In: 'Job creator.'
Use the phrases "small business owners" and "job creators" instead of "entrepreneurs" and "innovators."
9. Don't ever ask anyone to 'sacrifice.'
"There isn't an American today in November of 2011 who doesn't think they've already sacrificed. If you tell them you want them to 'sacrifice,' they're going to be be pretty angry at you. You talk about how 'we're all in this together.' We either succeed together or we fail together."
10. Always blame Washington.
Tell them, "You shouldn't be occupying Wall Street, you should be occupying Washington. You should occupy the White House because it's the policies over the past few years that have created this problem."
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Dude Abides

Dude Abides

Banned
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
I'm sorry you've failed in trying to reach excellence. It is a good feeling though as I've experienced a lot of success in the past year. Keep working hard and you may yet achieve it.
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Mediocrity isn't excellence. I weep for new law graduates and their diminished expectations for themselves. The market can support only so many contract attorneys.
 
T

teruterubozu

Member
nib95 said:
Head in the sand much? Are you seeing how wide spread this movement has become? You realise the very reason these 'tactics' you commend have been created is because of the success of the one's you downplay?
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Well, to be fair it just makes liberals more liberal and conservatives more conservative. I don't really believe hearts are being swayed one way or the other.
 
A

alstein

Member
XMonkey said:
Heh, Luntz can't even spin and twist the problems the movement has inserted in the national discourse. The alternative messaging he offers is awful.

Good shit.
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You pound it in enough it seeps in. Repeat something often enough people start to believe it.
Especially when they watch news they agree with.
 
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