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Peter Moore: I didn't kill the Dreamcast

Eddie-Griffin

Eddie-Griffin

Banned
https://www.timeextension.com/news/2023/02/i-didnt-kill-dreamcast-says-former-sega-of-america-boss
While the console was a hit with hardcore gamers and arcade lovers, it didn't sell in the volume required to keep Sega's head above water, and its failure infamously triggered the company's painful transition to third-party software publishing.

There's a narrative that exists that points the finger of blame at Peter Moore, who was Sega of America president and COO at the time of the Dreamcast. He's recently spoken to The Sega Guys channel and is keen to stress that he wasn't the one who pulled the trigger:

"I went over [to Japan] in January of 2001 [and] presented our numbers. The writing was on the wall there, and Europe was kind of hanging on. was told we're not going to be able to sustain producing hardware that's losing money because the attach rate isn't there. I think we were selling at 199 dollars and probably costing closer to 250-260. You need software attach rates, and it just wasn't there. So the guys in charge there said, 'you know we're going to shut it down, and we're going to move to third party, and you're going to tell the world.'
Click to expand...

"I often get blamed for killing the Dreamcast. I didn't do that. I did an interview where I said I had to make the call, meaning the telephone call, and people took that as [meaning] the decision.
It's one of the things I smile at when I still see stuff that goes on."
Click to expand...
The interview in question was run by the British news outlet The Guardian in 2018, and here's the passage in question:
"So on January 31st, 2001, we said Sega is leaving hardware. We were selling 50,000 units a day, then 60,000, then 100,000, but it was just not going to be enough to get the critical mass to take on the launch of PS2. Somehow I got to make that call, not the Japanese. I had to fire a lot of people; it was not a pleasant day."
Click to expand...
The 'call' Moore refers to took place on January 31st, 2001, when it was revealed to the world that Sega was getting out of the hardware business. "The following week, tail between legs, I'm calling Sony and Nintendo for Dev kits," Moore adds.
Click to expand...


I have heard many Sega fans throw tar on Peter Moore over the years for the Dreamcast even though it was most successful in his territory. It seems he wanted to finally clear the air on this issue.

According to him, people took an old interview he made out of context, and Sega of Japan had killed it and already made the decision. Although, I'm curious why he waited until 2023 to clarify this.
 
Brigandier

Brigandier

Gold Member
A catalogue of errors during the Saturn era and in house quarrels between SEGA JP and US left SEGA a damaged brand and when the DC released even at a bargain price and with a reasonable spec and solid first party line up the trust and any momentum was gone and people were done with SEGA.

Having some of the big names not publishing games on the system hurt them massively and my word that controller..... Piracy was rampant in the DC too that wouldn't have helped at all.

And well the hype for PS2 was ridiculous nothing was competing with Sony, The hype they had built going into the dvd generation... That shit was nuts.

Still love my DC... Upgrading to a Pixel FX DC Digital 2.0 soon for 1440p native games!!!! Can't wait.
 
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M

Max_Po

Banned
I love Peter, this guy was on top of the world at the launch of Xbox360.

As a gamer, I think one of the best launched of any console ever was the Xbox360. This thing had packed launch.

RR6, PGR3 and Need for Speed Most Wanted... and then, Oblivion.. Simply amazing.



Then he turned into a prick once the RROD started...
 
Gameplay Gods Bless

Gameplay Gods Bless

Member
Max_Po said:
I love Peter, this guy was on top of the world at the launch of Xbox360.

As a gamer, I think one of the best launched of any console ever was the Xbox360. This thing had packed launch.

RR6, PGR3 and Need for Speed Most Wanted... and then, Oblivion.. Simply amazing.



Then he turned into a prick once the RROD started...
Click to expand...
The 360 was the last console to outdo PCs at launch. It was incredible hardware for 2005.
 
KyoZz

KyoZz

Tag, you're it.
7acx50.jpg
 
rabbity-thing

rabbity-thing

Member
DaGwaphics said:
It was a great system with a very solid and unique library of games, but I'm guessing that most of the early adopters half figured that it would be discontinued quick. There wasn't any faith left for them after the 32x and Saturn.
Click to expand...
Exactly this for a lot of gamers. I grew up a Sega kid. Started with the Master System. No NES. Then moved onto the Genesis. No SNES. Got a Game Gear. No Gameboy. Fell for the Sega CD hype. Even got a 32X. Then, my older bro picked up the Sega Saturn. Then, when the Saturn just didn't go anywhere.... I got a Playstation. I'd been burned too many times. When news of the Dreamcast came, I just wasn't willing to take the plunge.

I eventually picked one up once they were being clearanced, and I love the little off-white console, but the Dreamcast was destined to fail. It took years of letting down loyal fans to make the admittedly great Dreamcast the wonderful failure that it was. Blaming it on any one person is silly.
 
Unknown?

Unknown?

Member
Brigandier said:
A catalogue of errors during the Saturn era and in house quarrels between SEGA JP and US left SEGA a damaged brand and when the DC released even at a bargain price and with a reasonable spec and solid first party line up the trust and any momentum was gone and people were done with SEGA.

Having some of the big names not publishing games on the system hurt them massively and my word that controller..... Piracy was rampant in the DC too that wouldn't have helped at all.

And well the hype for PS2 was ridiculous nothing was competing with Sony, The hype they had built going into the dvd generation... That shit was nuts.

Still love my DC... Upgrading to a Pixel FX DC Digital 2.0 soon for 1440p native games!!!! Can't wait.
Click to expand...
The controller wasn't bad or even weirs especially when you consider it launched when the N64 was still around.
 
THE DUCK

THE DUCK

voted poster of the decade by bots
I seriously question his numbers, 100,000 a day is 3,000,000 units a month. How is 36,000,000 a year sell rate "not enough to take on the ps2"? At its peak it sold 22 million a year.
 
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THE DUCK

THE DUCK

voted poster of the decade by bots
ManaByte said:
Not sure if you were around at the time, but the PS2 hype was telling people it would bring world peace, cure cancer, and get you laid with a different supermodel every night.
Click to expand...

I was, if those numbers were true, they would have kept selling the dreamcast. Maybe he's confused 10,000 with 100,000......since they only sold 9 Million total, that would have happened in 3 months based on what he said.........
 
thicc_girls_are_teh_best

thicc_girls_are_teh_best

Member
Fox Mulder said:
The ps2 hype tsunami killed the Dreamcast.
Click to expand...

Eh, Sega killed Dreamcast more than anyone else TBH

  • $199 announcement price that SOJ were forced to honor in America (that was on Bernie Stolar)
  • Rushed Japanese launch when Saturn was still doing okay in Japan
  • Low supply for Japanese launch (NEC to blame, but still)
  • No DVD built-in when the format was the next big thing
  • Little AAA Japanese dev support because of Saturn era, rushed Dreamcast launch & low Dreamcast sales in Japan
  • Turning away EA's sports exclusivity offer
  • Too much sunk costs into Shenmue technology development
  • Stupidly leaving MIL-CD exploit in every retail Dreamcast, just buried deep in the BIOS

In comparison to all of that the PS2 hype train was just an incidental event bound to happen anyway because of PS1's success. But Sega could've handled it much better if not for the aforementioned mistakes & shortcomings.
 
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Crayon

Crayon

Member
I'm a little surprised that the software attach rate was bad. It was only diehards willing to buy it after Sega's string of fuckups. You'd think they buy more games.
 
G

Georges Chiellins

Member
thicc_girls_are_teh_best said:
Eh, Sega killed Dreamcast more than anyone else TBH

  • $199 announcement price that SOJ were forced to honor in America (that was on Bernie Stolar)
  • Rushed Japanese launch when Saturn was still doing okay in Japan
  • Low supply for Japanese launch (NEC to blame, but still)
  • No DVD built-in when the format was the next big thing
  • Little AAA Japanese dev support because of Saturn era, rushed Dreamcast launch & low Dreamcast sales in Japan
  • Turning away EA's sports exclusivity offer
  • Too much sunk costs into Shenmue technology development
  • Stupidly leaving MIL-CD exploit in every retail Dreamcast, just buried deep in the BIOS

In comparison to all of that the PS2 hype train was just an incidental event bound to happen anyway because of PS1's success. But Sega could've handled it much better if not for the aforementioned mistakes & shortcomings.
Click to expand...
What's this about EA sports exclusivity?
 
The Pleasure

The Pleasure

Member
Georges Chiellins said:
Thanks.
Any reading material on this? I wasn't aware of that story, now it makes more sense.
Click to expand...
Crazy shit man

www.svg.com

How EA Delivered An Early Blow To Sega's Dreamcast - SVG

The Sega Dreamcast console had a short but bright life, with hits like Soulcalibur driving success. Here's how EA delivered an early blow to Sega's Dreamcast.
www.svg.com www.svg.com

"According to an article from SEGAbits, EA wanted sports exclusivity on the console. The late Bernie Stolar, former president and CEO of Sega, was good friends with former EA CEO Larry Probst. Stolar told Probst that he had just acquired Visual Concepts with plans on developing a first-party sports game. For Probst and EA, this was a dealbreaker as the publisher wanted no competition whatsoever on the console.

Read More: https://www.svg.com/1092890/how-ea-delivered-an-early-blow-to-segas-dreamcast/"
 
SportsFan581

SportsFan581

Member
Unknown? said:
The controller wasn't bad or even weirs especially when you consider it launched when the N64 was still around.
Click to expand...

I've never even held a N64 controller so I don't have a comparison for that. But for anyone with even average sized adult hands the DC controller design was about as horrendous as you could get. The general idea of it was okay, but the sides needed to be more bulbous, though even then the triggers would have been positioned in an uncomfortable way.
 
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SportsFan581

SportsFan581

Member
radewagon said:
Exactly this for a lot of gamers. I grew up a Sega kid. Started with the Master System. No NES. Then moved onto the Genesis. No SNES. Got a Game Gear. No Gameboy. Fell for the Sega CD hype. Even got a 32X. Then, my older bro picked up the Sega Saturn. Then, when the Saturn just didn't go anywhere.... I got a Playstation. I'd been burned too many times. When news of the Dreamcast came, I just wasn't willing to take the plunge.

I eventually picked one up once they were being clearanced, and I love the little off-white console, but the Dreamcast was destined to fail. It took years of letting down loyal fans to make the admittedly great Dreamcast the wonderful failure that it was. Blaming it on any one person is silly.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I also opted for the PS over Saturn and got my DC during the clearance period, along with a handful of games for it. Though I played a ton of games on it thanks to CD-Rs and Alcohol 120 :messenger_winking_tongue:

It really captured a great time in gaming.
 
Havoc2049

Havoc2049

Member
DaGwaphics said:
It was a great system with a very solid and unique library of games, but I'm guessing that most of the early adopters half figured that it would be discontinued quick. There wasn't any faith left for them after the 32x and Saturn.
Click to expand...
Yes and no. Sega had done the impossible before and went from less than 10% of the console market share with the Master System to around 45% market share with the Genesis. The launch of the Dreamcast was also one of the biggest up to that point as well. Sonic being there at launch was also a positive. Once the PS2 hype train was in full swing in the media though, Dreamcast console and especially software sales just dropped off a cliff.
 
SportsFan581

SportsFan581

Member
Havoc2049 said:
Yes and no. Sega had done the impossible before and went from less than 10% of the console market share with the Master System to around 45% market share with the Genesis. The launch of the Dreamcast was also one of the biggest up to that point as well. Sonic being there at launch was also a positive. Once the PS2 hype train was in full swing in the media though, Dreamcast console and especially software sales just dropped off a cliff.
Click to expand...

Master System users were pleased with the product they bought and felt it was well supported (and the GG ports did help the system get new titles for a long time). That's quite a contrast from selling users a string of devices with poor software support that were also discontinued quickly. Like you said though, DC still had a fighting chance if they could have produced more units before the PS2 launch and if the cd-r loophole was never released to the public (crazy that Sega went from being as concerned about piracy as they were on the Saturn to leaving such a glaring opening in the DC).

And of course, Sony was right there to remind users of Sega's failures and point out how the system was a half step and not a new generation in their eyes, they had a real FUD machine running against it (the same tactics they would try a generation later on 360 to much less effect).
 
StueyDuck

StueyDuck

Member
I thought it was pretty well known the heads at Sega jpn basically fucked the system...

Peter Moore did what he could with what ip he had left.

I have seen console warriors share this idea that Sony killed Sega 🤣 such hilarious revisionist history to win a list war.

I do wish we lived in a world where we had a big 4 with Sega included. That would be a fun timeline to live in
 
SkylineRKR

SkylineRKR

Member
Dreamcast could sustain if it made a profit, like Nintendo always sustained even with their bad launches such as the Wii U. Sure PS2 would outsell it, but if you generate profit on your hardware.. then I see no reason why not. They would've target a different demographic, games with lower production costs.

If it still made a loss by 2001, then yeah, DC should've been axed ASAP. I mean, 199 bucks was the original launch price from 1999.

Most software barely sold. I think SC, CV, SA were sellers, some sports games.. Shenmue too but it cost much more. The rest was probably not significant, I do know that barely anyone bought the likes of JSR despite the games being excellent. Sega wasn't like Nintendo and nothing like Sony, they can't afford to keep selling at a loss.
 
SportsFan581

SportsFan581

Member
^ Seems like Crazy Taxi moved some units as well. They had a small userbase so it was naturally hard for them to match sales numbers with the competition that gen (who would have 3 or 4 and in PS2's case more than 10x the users).
 
Eddie-Griffin

Eddie-Griffin

Banned
REDRZA MWS said:
Of course he didn’t, the PS2 did that.
Click to expand...

This is also inaccurate.

SkylineRKR said:
Most software barely sold. I think SC, CV, SA were sellers
Click to expand...

SA was the only real seller, Soul Calibur had a good front load and tampered off, CV was never a big seller but had good reviews.

DaGwaphics said:
^ Seems like Crazy Taxi moved some units as well. They had a small userbase so it was naturally hard for them to match sales numbers with the competition that gen (who would have 3 or 4 and in PS2's case more than 10x the users).
Click to expand...

In NA the DC started strong and was still strong and rising when the PS2 came out and then quickly fell apart once people started buying lesss software outside sports games.

Like the Saturn, they couldn't get people to actually buy games.

DaGwaphics said:
Master System users were pleased with the product they bought and felt it was well supported (and the GG ports did help the system get new titles for a long time). That's quite a contrast from selling users a string of devices with poor software support that were also discontinued quickly. Like you said though, DC still had a fighting chance if they could have produced more units before the PS2 launch
Click to expand...

People need to stop with this PS2 thing, PS2 had nothing to do with it as in the US DC was doing well after it came out, people need to realize it was already in a bad position in Europe and dead in Japan BEFORE the PS2 was even the factor, it only did really well in one region, and was far behind where they needed to be everywhere else leading to them losing money on sales cuts.

Sure, PS2 being a viable option didn't help, but it wasn't a trigger that suddenly made the DC non-successful.

Havoc2049 said:
Once the PS2 hype train was in full swing in the media though, Dreamcast console and especially software sales just dropped off a cliff.
Click to expand...

Said a lot, actual sales don't show this.

Sega didn't need EA sports either, I doubt madden would have sold much more to the Dreamcast userbase who brought NFL 2K series, which became the main draw of the system. That wouldn't fix the problem of people not buying other games.
 
Eddie-Griffin

Eddie-Griffin

Banned
For perspective, here is the top selling Dreamcast games in the US market, it's strongest market moving by far the most software,

DC​

Code: 
Fmt   Publisher     Title                               Units Sold (in Millions)
DC    Sega          Sonic Adventure                                     1.05
DC    Sega          NFL 2K1                                             1.01
DC    Sega          NFL 2K                                                 1
DC    Sega          Crazy Taxi                                             1

Nothing else sold over 1 million, nothing sold over 1.5 million.

NFL2K1 came out in Sept 2000 btw. Arguably saved the console for several months until the rapid decline at a point in 2001.

They were really having issues getting people to buy games.
 
M

MALpractice311

Member
radewagon said:
Exactly this for a lot of gamers. I grew up a Sega kid. Started with the Master System. No NES. Then moved onto the Genesis. No SNES. Got a Game Gear. No Gameboy. Fell for the Sega CD hype. Even got a 32X. Then, my older bro picked up the Sega Saturn. Then, when the Saturn just didn't go anywhere.... I got a Playstation. I'd been burned too many times. When news of the Dreamcast came, I just wasn't willing to take the plunge.

I eventually picked one up once they were being clearanced, and I love the little off-white console, but the Dreamcast was destined to fail. It took years of letting down loyal fans to make the admittedly great Dreamcast the wonderful failure that it was. Blaming it on any one person is silly.
Click to expand...

This is it exactly. Sega, whether it was SOJ or SOA, burned gamers more than enough times by the time the DC released. It never stood a chance. Then Sony did to Sega what Sega did to Nintendo (i.e., made them look kiddie and uncool) and later included DVD playback in the PS2. That was enough to kill the DC.
 
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