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PoliGAF 2017 |OT1| From Russia with Love

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royalan

Member
thepotatoman said:
Snowden released the right information with with the right curation and the right publications, effecting real policy with the released information. He then fled a country that had already held Manning for 3 years without trial at the time, in conditions the UN torture chief ruled cruel and inhuman.

And now we're talking about him going into the hands of a president that litterally called for his execution.

But fuck him right? I guess he deserves it for saying a couple of dumb things about hillary.

Fuck those types of reactions. How fucking heartless can you guys be?
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Did I say anything about Hillary?
 
R

Rebel Leader

THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
thepotatoman said:
Snowden released the right information with with the right curation and the right publications, effecting real policy with the released information. He then fled a country that had already held Manning for 3 years without trial at the time, in conditions the UN torture chief ruled cruel and inhuman.

And now we're talking about him going into the hands of a president that litterally called for his execution.

But fuck him right? I guess he deserves it for saying a couple of dumb things about hillary.

Fuck those types of reactions. How fucking heartless can you guys be?
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I wasn't talking about the story. The tweet still gets me every time i see it.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Gruco said:
This was like the 2014 take, but tbh it has been less clear over time.

I am confident that Snowden believed he was doing the right thing. At the same time, the more I've seen from congress, Obama, and respected intelligence writers, the less convinced I am of it being that straightforward.

I do agree that WikiLeaks is always shit, but the Snowden story probably isn't as simple as a hero whistle-blowing privacy advocate (even if those were likely his motivations). It's very likely he was cultivated as an unwitting Russian asset.
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I also believe Snowden thought he was doing the right thing. I don't think he was (but that's another debate.)

However, him going to Russia is the result of (maliciously bad) advice from Assange, who at the time was still a darling of the left. He's been in a gilded cage ever since.
 
D

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
sc0la said:
lol Conway at the endorsement prohibitions are too broad. You literally (paraphrased) said "this is a free product plug go buy some"
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Yup, acting like she got into trouble over something abstract or indirect is pretty precious.
 
R

royalan

Member
kirblar said:
I also believe Snowden thought he was doing the right thing. I don't think he was (but that's another debate.)

However, him going to Russia is the result of (maliciously bad) advice from Assange, who at the time was still a darling of the left. He's been in a gilded cage ever since.
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Prett much my feelings.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Are we going to ignore the court literally ruled the NSA spying that snowden leaked to be illegal:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/07/politics/nsa-telephone-metadata-illegal-court/

And reform legislation was passed as a result:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/senate-passes-nsa-reform-bill-the-usa-freedom-act/

Or that the US set an absolutely terrible example for its treatment of whistleblowers with Manning?

WTF are you guys talking about. I thought we were against authoritarianism and a complete disregard of the law for the promise of safety.
 
E

excelsiorlef

Member
Wilsongt said:
If the ultra left tries to co-op the party, then yes. The Democrats are fucked.
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Democrats need the antithesis of Trump. Bernie Sanders, Nina Turner and Tulsi Gabbard are the antithesis of Trump. Furthermore, each of these progressive icons epitomizes an end to failed U.S. foreign policy quagmires, breaking up Too Big to Fail Banks, and other progressive policy ideals. In addition, both Nina Turner and Tulsi Gabbard broke ties with the DNC to support Bernie Sanders; something Elizabeth Warren failed to emulate.
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Omg yes H.A. Goodman actually called Tulsi Gabbard a progressive icon... the joke is now a reality!
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
I am extremely disappointed in most of your reactions here. You guys should know better than this.
 
J

jtb

Banned
I'm not sure how logically sound my position is, but I've long felt that (ever since he went to Russia, basically) Snowden absolutely did the right thing, the right way, (maybe not for the right reasons? but that's meaningless to me) but also that he should probably have been more prepared/willing to pay a price for that? I mean, either he's "brave" or he isn't, right -- and if how brave the act is directly corresponds to the level of risk associated with it?

But maybe that's just me looking for a martyr.

I definitely went from being ambivalent (pleased, even) about the whole Russia/Snowden thing to being really irritated and worried after Russia's meddling with the 2016 elections. There is something deeply concerning to me about standing up for civil liberties on one hand, but simultaneously being a weapon for a country that is actively undermining our democracy.
 
A

Allard

Member
Carpe Libertatem said:
Are people even saying this? Not sure anyone here would like to see Snowden executed, especially by Trump.
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Yeah there might be a couple advocating for actual violence, but most people are also having a seriously hard time feeling sorry for him. I am tired of the both sides bullshit and some of his comments leading to the election were part of the reason (definitely not the only or main reason) that the both sides crap, stay home or vote third party, caught on. I can be against his execution or heavy punishment, or call him a whistle-blower seeking pardon and still have no feelings for the predicament he is in, he made a bed as stupid as it was, and now he must lie in it. I'll certainly be against any punishment he might receive should he get extracated but I don't have to feel sorry for him either.
 
K

kirblar

Member
It's the standard issue "voted for Trump.... now has no healthcare/family deported/etc" Schadenfreude at play, just an extreme case of it.
 
C

Carpe Libertatem

Member
Bonen no Max'd said:
No, just laughing at the prospect.
A better take, like always.
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More likely is that they're laughing at the irony in Snowden being given to Trump in light of his comments during the election. Which, yeah, seem a bit dumb now! (Although Snowden thinks this will vindicate him now)

Not literally laughing at the prospect of Snowden being executed
 
B

Brawly Likes to Brawl

Member
whyamihere said:
I think Snowden is a hero, but this underscores how many didn't understand the stakes in this election. And now he could die.
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Exactly how I feel. I'm hoping this is a trial balloon and Russia doesn't actually go through with it, but openly mulling the idea over like that must be fucking terrifying for Snowden. I only wish that people cared more about the leaks. People are still invoking the "I have nothing to hide" fallacy.

Although, it does seem like tech companies and software devs have been more concerned about encryption and user privacy since, which is good.
 
C

Carpe Libertatem

Member
Like, I don't really feel comfortable with Snowden being extradited to the U.S., especially while Trump (or any Republican really) is president. But I'm also not comfortable with him chilling out in Russia, even if he doesn't really have options to leave.

It's a complicated situation.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Carpe Libertatem said:
More likely is that they're laughing at the irony in Snowden being given to Trump in light of his comments during the election. Which, yeah, seem a bit dumb now! (Although Snowden thinks this will vindicate him now)

Not literally laughing at the prospect of Snowden being executed
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Ok, so just laughing at the irony of the prospect of his execution. That makes it so much better.
 
R

royalan

Member
There's also the scary proposition that the Russian govt. is actively trying to distract from the Flynn story.

At least, that's what my Twitter feed is buzzing about at the moment.

To actually discuss the story itself (and not our varied opinions on Snowden himself), I would be very surprised if Russia gave Snowden up. There are more elections to come and, like Assange, he's proven himself a useful mouthpiece to get the left to turn on itself.

I can't imagine Russia needing to use Snowden as a bartering tool against an administration they already have significant leverage on.
 
T

thehypocrite

Member
NYCmetsfan said:
Cc5E63eUAAEgeDV.jpg
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RIP. I salute him for his service.
 
R

royalan

Member
Grexeno said:
I am so fucking done with "every Trump story is just a distraction from a different, more insidious Trump story."
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I mean, yeah it's tired that people use it for EVERYTHING, but it is a strategy Trump actively employs. And not just Trump; let's not forget that Wikileaks/Russia timed Clinton email dumps to align with negative Trump news cycles. So you can't really discount the theory.

Considering Russia just cleaned house of any alleged infiltrants among its ranks, and the timing of it all, I'm leaning towards believing there was an ulterior motive to this rather sudden and coincidentally timed bit of news.
 
S

sphagnum

Banned
royalan said:
I can't imagine Russia needing to use Snowden as a bartering tool against an administration they already have significant leverage on.
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Perhaps things aren't going as smoothly with Trump as Putin would have thought? There's the whole thing with Haley firmly denouncing Russia at the UN, Trump telling a Ukrainian guy at the prayer breakfast that they weren't getting rid of sanctions, the renewed violence there the day after Trump and Putin spoke as if he's sending a message, Trump telling Putin that New START was a bad deal for the US, etc.
 
A

Abinash117

Member
royalan said:
There's also the scary proposition that the Russian govt. is actively trying to distract from the Flynn story.

At least, that's what my Twitter feed is buzzing about at the moment.

To actually discuss the story itself (and not our varied opinions on Snowden himself), I would be very surprised if Russia gave Snowden up. There are more elections to come and, like Assange, he's proven himself a useful mouthpiece to get the left to turn on itself.

I can't imagine Russia needing to use Snowden as a bartering tool against an administration they already have significant leverage on.
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Why do people keep bringing up that everything is a distraction? It isn't like the IC and politicians will suddenly forget what they are doing just when the media announces more BREAKING NEWS! . It doesn't matter if the people are that fickle too; the power to make those certain decisions aren't in their hands.
 
K

kirblar

Member
royalan said:
I mean, yeah it's tired that people use it for EVERYTHING, but it is a strategy Trump actively employs. And not just Trump; let's not forget that Wikileaks/Russia timed Clinton email dumps to align with negative Trump news cycles. So you can't really discount the theory.

Considering Russia just cleaned house of any alleged infiltrants among its ranks, and the timing of it all, I'm leaning towards believing there was an ulterior motive to this rather sudden and coincidentally timed bit of news.
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He doesn't though! When he tweets like a crazy person on a random subject at 7:11 AM, it's because he's an old crazy person reacting to what he just saw on Fox News.

Other people are smart enough for deliberate Distractics. He isn't.
 
R

Rebel Leader

THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
kirblar said:
He doesn't though! When he tweets like a crazy person on a random subject at 7:11 AM, it's because he's an old crazy person reacting to what he just saw on Fox News.

Other people are smart enough for deliberate Distractics. He isn't.
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He has tweeted at 3 am too!
 
R

royalan

Member
sphagnum said:
Perhaps things aren't going as smoothly with Trump as Putin would have thought? There's the whole thing with Haley firmly denouncing Russia at the UN, Trump telling a Ukrainian guy at the prayer breakfast that they weren't getting rid of sanctions, the renewed violence there the day after Trump and Putin spoke as if he's sending a message, Trump telling Putin that New START was a bad deal for the US, etc.
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This could certainly be true (even though I'm not really convinced yet that all of this wasn't a bit of theater).

Still, if you believe that infamous dossier is legit, and it's starting to seem like at least some of it is, then Russia already has some major dirt they've been holding over Trump's head this entire time. I see them tugging on those strings rather than giving up an asset that could still be useful.

I mean, unless I've missed something, why would Trump care about getting Snowden? Hell, in a roundabout way, Snowden helped depress the democratic base and get him elected.

kirblar said:
He doesn't though! When he tweets like a crazy person on a random subject at 7:11 AM, it's because he's an old crazy person reacting to what he just saw on Fox News.

Other people are smart enough for deliberate Distractics. He isn't.
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I mean, of course, I'm not suggesting that every Trump tweet is backed with the intent of a brilliant and mad tactician. Most of them ARE loony. But are you really suggesting that Donald Trump, over the course of the last year and some months, never once acted with deliberate intent to change a news cycle?
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
royalan said:
This could certainly be true (even though I'm not really convinced yet that all of this wasn't a bit of theater).

Still, if you believe that infamous dossier is legit, and it's starting to seem like at least some of it is, then Russia already has some major dirt they've been holding over Trump's head this entire time. I see them tugging on those strings rather than giving up an asset that could still be useful.

I mean, unless I've missed something, why would Trump care about getting Snowden? Hell, in a roundabout way, Snowden helped depress the democratic base and get him elected.
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He's a dictator-type. Look at him in that vein and then ask why a dictator would want to get Snowden.
 
E

excelsiorlef

Member
shinra-bansho said:
Too afraid to use my actual coined phrase of liberal icon I see. HA, good man.
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But Progressive is even better! Liberal can mean anything from far left to just left of centre. Progressive implies a dyed in the wool lefty which is just so much more stupid.


On Snowden I'll cross post from that thread:

Regardless of what you think of him, it is worth noting that his decision to stay in Russia instead of turn himself into to what would have been a much friendlier Obama administration (and Obama had basically said he'd likely have commuted Snowden had he been in US custody) has enabled him to become a potential bargaining chip (even if it's just a PR face) between the Trump Administration and Putin, giving them both more cover to work together, possibly justify lifting sanctions and what not... which isn't good for anyone.

Like he did in a way put himself in a position for Russia to use him even unwillingly as a tool, he's not popular in conservative circles I imagine so Trump announcing a deal to exchange him for a reduction in say sanctions or as an excuse for coming together, could be a way to quiet anti-Russia sentiment amongst conservatives
 
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