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Pope had secret meeting with Kim Davis, Kentucky County Clerk

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Cyan

Banned
Regardless of the merit of being able to do this...

Is this relevant when you're this absolutely fucking positively on the right side of the argument?

I would say yes. I think that if you want to have accurate beliefs about the world, it's generally preferable to avoid these types of traps if at all possible, and that means practicing at it even when you're totally sure you're right.

One way of looking at it is that supporting the right of gay people to marry is a correct object-level belief, while avoiding othering and tribalism while trying to have understanding and compassion is a meta-level behavior that could lead you to the correct object-level belief. Right? It's never as simple in practice as "think about compassion and understanding, oh, now I support gay marriage," but I think the principle is sound.

Also I tend to think of "less othering and tribalism in the world, more compassion and understanding" as something of an end-goal in itself rather than just a means to an end.
 

Linkark07

Banned
The reaction in this thread is amusing. Still don't know why many people idealized this pope.

In the end, he is a normal human being who can do stupid choices like meeting Davis.
 

Moofers

Member
HEY WHATS GOING ON IN THIS THREAD BRUHS?!?

I thought we all agreed Kim Davis was stunning and brave, did we not?!? Well if not then you BETTER get on board!

WEOO WEOO WEOO

That's the sound of 2015 pulling you over! The Pope™ thanked her for her courage! That pretty much closes the book on this whole thing so let's all agree that what she did was stunning and brave before I have to check somebody's privilege!

*In all seriousness, I'm disappointed in him but not at all surprised. This guy has been Mr. Babysteps all the way and people are just into him because its the first time a pope has been even the slightest bit unpredictable.
 

Moofers

Member
I highly doubt that

150922074822-kim-davis-marriage-kentucky-clerk-spencer-pkg-00003005-large-169.jpg

That's the first time I've seen this pic. I didn't know Hillbilly Jim came out of retirement!
 
I'm absolutely shocked the pope is actually a catholic, with catholic views unlike the way his PR firm portrays him.

Still can't believe people fall for his PR stunts.
 
Is this the thread where progressive young Americans learn that the Pope is Christian? If only he had been asked on his view of Caitlyn Jenner...the meltdown.
 
I'm absolutely shocked the pope is actually a catholic, with catholic views unlike the way his PR firm portrays him.

Still can't believe people fall for his PR stunts.

I know, I know.

I feel like a fool. As a friend told me today, "You aren't the only one. He tricked millions."

I feel so gullible though.
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Also I tend to think of "less othering and tribalism in the world, more compassion and understanding" as something of an end-goal in itself rather than just a means to an end.

Amen to that good sir.

And, as a rider, here's a link to the best recent defence of niceness that I've seen (by Scott Alexander, long read, but inspiring read).

Here's just one tiny snippet from half-way through that strikes home:

I am not trying to fight all the evils of the world. I am just trying to cultivate my garden.
 

Holmes

Member
Giving a crazy lady a hug is 3 steps back? Dude made an impassioned plea for the environment, an end to capital punishment, and for caring of the vulnerable and impoverish, but him hugging some lady invalidates all of that 3 times over?

We, as Liberals, are so fucking weird and extremist sometimes.
Depends on how you see it. As a gay man, it's a "fuck you", no matter what he says about LGBT rights publicly. So I don't care about what else he says publicly. He's just an old man anyway. If you want to listen to seniors talk, visit an old age home. They'll be happy for the company.
 
Giving a crazy lady a hug is 3 steps back? Dude made an impassioned plea for the environment, an end to capital punishment, and for caring of the vulnerable and impoverish, but him hugging some lady invalidates all of that 3 times over?

We, as Liberals, are so fucking weird and extremist sometimes.
I think the point is that he says things publicly that will increase the popularity of himself and his church with groups the church doesn't really reach in this day and age, but behind closed doors he's meeting with bigots, so that makes it hard to see his public messaging as anything other than calculated, opportunistic PR.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I'm surprised OP was able to resist the temptation of getting a guffaw by describing her job title as "Kentucky Kounty Klerk."
 

Darksol

Member
I mean, he's okay for a pope, but he's still a pope. Of course he's going to say stupid shit that's offensive to people who don't buy into dogmatic bullshit. As many other posters have already said, you have nobody other than yourself to blame if you actually thought the man was progressive.
 

hongcha

Member
I'm not sure why this is a surprise to anyone. The Catholic church maintains a very firm and clear opposition to gay marriage, and the pope's comment to Kim Davis is merely in accord with that.
 
I guess people who think like that lady are just incredibly narrow minded, like a little kid who thinks everything is instantly theirs. Their viewpoint is so much more important than everyone elses they can inflict it on others.That's the only way I can kind of understand their mindset.
 

Fj0823

Member
Ohh man, come on Pope. Not cool.

She has every right to be against same sex marriage, but if your job says to give them licenses, you fucking do it or quit. Simple as that.
I'm Catholic btw.


Edit: fuck typing on a phone.

Same here.

You were the chosen one!
You were supposed to destroy the fundamentalists not join them!

Bring balance to church and current society, not leave then both in darkness!

You were my hero Francis... I loved you.
 

Aikidoka

Member
i mean he also supported her in his speech to the UN right? The pope has stated many homophobic things since he's been in office so I don't see why anyone is surprised. I guess people really want to buy into the whole "this one's different" shit.
 
Can't help but chuckle at people being stunned by this. He's the pope, are you really surprised he supports "traditional" marriage and would throw his support behind someone who is (allegedly lol) being persecuted for her religious views?

This day was inevitable. I must say that as someone who watched how ugly things got in 2003/2004 when the Vatican was sticking their nose in US politics (refusing to give Kerry communion), I was surprised to see liberals cheerleading this guy and essentially using him to attack republicans. This was always going to end ugly. So now you take the L.

Overall I like a lot of the pope's message on a variety of issues, but I sure as hell wouldn't point to him as some person of authority on anything. He's an old Catholic who grew up in a socialist country where some people were actually persecuted for their religious views (not fake persecuted, like Kim Davis).
 

whytemyke

Honorary Canadian.
So, in terms of Sin Tiers:

1. Murder - HELL
2. Homosexuality - HELL
3. Abortion - HELL
4. Rape/Sexual Abuse - Probation
5. Divorce - Probation
6. Masturbation - $5 per offense
7. Everything else can be forgiven with a donation to the church or sending your kids to Catholic School.

Thanks, GOD.
Even murder is kinda shaky.

"Thou shalt try REALLY hard not to kill."
-George Carlin
 

Fox Mulder

Member
I'm absolutely shocked the pope is actually a catholic, with catholic views unlike the way his PR firm portrays him.

Still can't believe people fall for his PR stunts.

This.

Doesn't shock me at all the pope is encouraging her. It's just funny he had to do it in secret to not ruin his PR goodwill trip.
 

Zubz

Banned
As a Catholic, this trip to the U.S. really had me proud of Francis this past week. But peak-end rule can really be a killer...
 

antonz

Member
Wait, he met with Mark Wahlberg? Why?

Mark Wahlberg is what I guess you could call a born again Catholic who goes to mass every week etc. He was one of the Master of Ceremonies for the World Meeting of Families thing in Philadelphia. It was more they were in the same place rather than the Pope going out of his way to meet him thing
 

akira28

Member
So he turns down dinner with congressional leaders, where he could discuss his Papal agenda, but is OK meeting with Kim Davis and Mark Wahlberg.

GIF-classic-disappointed-face-palm-facepalm-oh-brother-Picard-GIF.gif

He let her come see him for 10 minutes and gave her some freebie Pope gear for her parents. He did a Beiber and people want to give him shit over it?

too funny.

the funniest and most telling was that the vatican did not comment on the visits, and she immediately went on the news to claim that her meeting with him was him validating her obstruction.
 

Monocle

Member
Shit guys, I'm starting to think this pope guy might be Catholic. What do y'all think?
I think some of us held out the hope that he wasn't a regressive jerk. If you're implying his intolerance is synonymous with Catholicism, well... that doesn't say much for Catholicism.
 

Nephtis

Member
I think it's more interesting that the pope / Vatican isn't commenting on this. I would like to think that he met her to tell her to remain strong in her faith, but to not be such an asshole and just do her job.

And of course she's wording it the best possible way for her.
 

Zubz

Banned

I immediately regretted clicking that link, knowing that they probably got even a cent off of me viewing that page.

I think it's more interesting that the pope / Vatican isn't commenting on this. I would like to think that he met her to tell her to remain strong in her faith, but to not be such an asshole and just do her job.

And of course she's wording it the best possible way for her.

I can only hope, but it still seems like he went out of his way to see her, rather than vice versa. And he was doing so well, too. At least he's several steps forward, which is more than I could've ever hoped, but if he's actively giving an attention-seeking bigot support for her selfish/hate-driven actions, then that definitely tarnishes my image of him, regardless of how progressive he is on other fronts.
 

Nephtis

Member
I can only hope, but it still seems like he went out of his way to see her, rather than vice versa. And he was doing so well, too. At least he's several steps forward, which is more than I could've ever hoped, but if he's actively giving an attention-seeking bigot support for her selfish/hate-driven actions, then that definitely tarnishes my image of him, regardless of how progressive he is on other fronts.

Right, but keep in mind that he is here for religious reasons, and as much as we all hate it, her case is super high profile. He sort of can't ignore it. And given his track record, I rather give him the benefit of the doubt on this one. I think Kim is trying to cash in on having seen the Pope and she's just twisting things.
 

Mariolee

Member
I really like this article by Rev. James Martin from America Media about this entire situation. Definitely worth a look if you want to read perhaps a less politically sided or outraged article.

A few things to bear in mind:

1. Pope Francis met with many individuals during his visits in Washington, New York, and Philadelphia, at various locations and events. For example, he met with Sister Norma Pimentel, who works with migrants on the Mexican border, at the Vatican nunciature in New York; she described her meeting and how it came about to America Media. At that same meeting he also met Sister Donna Markham, president of Catholic Charities USA. Pope Francis met with Sister Mary Scullion outside the Basilica of Sts. Peter and Paul in Philadelphia at the location of her “Grotto of Mary, Undoer of Knots,” dedicated to the homeless in Philadelphia, a meeting that was carried live on television. And he met with Stephen Schwarzman, a wealthy benefactor of Catholic schools, and spoke with him for several minutes at the school of Our Lady, Queen of Angels, in Harlem. The pope would have been introduced to many more people whom we may never know about: individual Catholics whom a Vatican official, or a local bishop or friend of the pope, felt was especially deserving of a visit—again, these would include Catholic donors, priests, men and women in religious orders, and so on.

2. Such meetings are arranged in several ways. Sister Norma told me that it was Archbishop Auza, the Permanent Observer of the Holy See to the United Nations, who invited her and Sister Donna to the nunciature for their early morning conversation. It is claimed that a “Vatican official” arranged the meeting with Kim Davis, which is vague. Does this mean someone in the Vatican curia? A local cardinal, archbishop or bishop? And why? In response to a request by the pope? Or perhaps as a way for a local bishop to encourage Ms. Davis, who, by the way, is not Catholic? (One unintended irony of this visit: I wonder what Ms. Davis’s own Apostolic Pentecostal church, which apparently does not believe in the Trinity, thinks of the office of the bishop of Rome.)

3. It’s hard to know how much the Pope Francis knew about each individual who was introduced to him during his long trip to the United States. Did he know much about Kim Davis before meeting her? Was he following her case before he entered the country? Did he learn about the controversy from a local bishop after he arrived? Or was her story quickly relayed to him in a receiving line? And how was it explained to him? “Holy Father, this is Kim Davis who…”

4. His words to her, “Be strong,” and his gift of a rosary seem to be the kind of thing the pope might do for anyone presented to him. The difficulty of trying to construe these words into Pope Francis’ support for a “liberal” or “conservative” political agenda is evident here. That is, he said almost the same thing to women religious in this country, sometimes widely viewed as “liberal”: “Be courageous!”

It’s also important to remember that the only source for what happened during the meeting is Ms. Davis, who would naturally be inclined to interpret the pope’s words and gestures as supporting her particular cause.

5. For those wondering what all of this means, it’s probably best not to interpret a meeting that the Vatican will not speak about, and also to be careful about swallowing wholesale the interpretation of those who would use this meeting to support their own agenda. Instead, there’s an easier and better option. Listen to the pope’s own words on the matter, which came in response to ABC’s Terry Moran’s question during the in-flight media conference back to Rome, about individual conscientious objection.

That is, if you want to know what the pope thinks about this issue, listen to what he says. And here the pope simply restated Christian theology: that is, everyone has the right to conscientious objection: “I can’t have in mind all cases that can exist about conscientious objection,” said the pope. “But, yes, I can say conscientious objection is a right that is a part of every human right. It is a right.”

In fact, now that we know that he met Ms. Davis, that first sentence indicates he is not in fact talking about her case in particular.

6. It’s ill advised to use a private visit with the pope to make political point. It’s also unfortunate that after the pope’s visit, during which he sought to reconcile divisions, during which he explicitly lamented political polarization in his speech to Congress and during which he sought to show how foolish the “culture wars” are, that his meeting with Ms. Davis may be used to score political points.

7. Most of all, despite what Ms. Davis said, a meeting with the pope does not “kind of validate everything.” Again, the pope meets with many people, some of whom he may know well, others of whom may be introduced to him as a reward for long service, and perhaps others who will use a meeting to make a political point. Meeting with the pope is a great honor, but it does not betoken a blanket blessing on “everything” one does. Not to put too fine a point on it, but Pope Francis also met Mark Wahlberg, and that does not mean that he liked “Ted.”

I especially liked his last point lol I think we have a rule against copying the whole article here but man I enjoyed every single on one of his points.
 

Nephtis

Member
I especially liked his last point lol I think we have a rule against copying the whole article here but man I enjoyed every single on one of his points.

Haha yeah that last point made me laugh too. And it's also in line with what I was saying earlier.
 
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