Qantas grounds all aircraft

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They are losing money internationally, no matter what that can't continue and its in the best interest of everyone to make sure it doesn't happen. Unions move.
 
Ripclawe said:
They are losing money internationally, no matter what that can't continue and its in the best interest of everyone to make sure it doesn't happen. Unions move.
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I know where they could have saved 3 million dollars...
 
I read somewhere that the strikes have already cost Qantas more than what the unions have been asking for. SMH at corporate greed.
 
lexi said:
I read somewhere that the strikes have already cost Qantas more than what the unions have been asking for. SMH at corporate greed.
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Management: "If we give into these plebs now, they're just going to take more from us later!"

"However much we lose now, we're going to lose more by agreeing to them!"


*Facing losses several times the amount of agreeing to demands in the first place*

Management: "No. Fuck these plebs. If we give in now, they're just going to cost us more in the end! No, they fucked us, we'll fuck them. Fucking fucks." *tears out hair*


Ego and greed intensifies the higher you climb the corporate ladder.
 
Ripclawe said:
They are losing money internationally, no matter what that can't continue and its in the best interest of everyone to make sure it doesn't happen. Unions move.
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So let's piss thousands off so they'll never fly with us again and lose $20 million every day. Excellent plan! Also, didn't Qantas put a whole lot of money into jetstar which is why they had such a big loss?
 
Darklord said:
So let's piss thousands off so they'll never fly with us again and lose $20 million every day. Excellent plan! Also, didn't Qantas put a whole lot of money into jetstar which is why they had such a big loss?
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Their international rep has to be taking a massive hit, they gave travellers no notice at all. Even if you want to do this, you at least look after your customers.
 
The CEO is not going to care if he destroys the Qantas brand. He can just take pension and leave. However, if Qantas doesn't recover from this and go bankrupt, all the workers will need to find another job, even if they manage to get fair pay now. The bad PR will be hard to recover from.
 
Why is Quantas losing money on international flights? The US airlines make their money on the international flights while the domestic flights are less of a moneymaker.
 
videogamer said:
Why is Quantas losing money on international flights? The US airlines make their money on the international flights while the domestic flights are less of a moneymaker.
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I think its mostly business travel and the distance/ time it takes to get to Australia. If that goes south, they lose money.
 
videogamer said:
Why is Quantas losing money on international flights? The US airlines make their money on the international flights while the domestic flights are less of a moneymaker.
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alot less competition domestically than the americans

also their brand..... Been living on their trusted name and safety record for decades.

more info on the international environment

http://www.theage.com.au/business/nationalise-qantas-international-20111014-1lo1o.html

Just three international airlines, Singapore Airlines, Emirates and Air New Zealand, operate one-quarter of the seats that are flown into Australia. What do they have in common? They are all majority-owned by governments.

Qantas cannot sustainably compete against these airlines in the international market, particularly Singapore and Emirates. There are two reasons for this.


The first is that these airlines have a significant cost advantage over Qantas.

According to information in the most recent annual reports, Qantas's costs (defined on a cents-per-available-seat kilometre basis) are 14 per cent higher than Singapore’s; 25 per cent higher than Air New Zealand’s; and 49 per cent higher than Emirates. (These figures haven’t been adjusted for differences in average sector lengths.)

At the back of the plane, where price is the only thing that matters, a cost advantage is critical. Qantas simply cannot profitably compete for this growing segment of passengers.
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I heard they've actually stranded people in Bangkok. In the middle in the floods while people are evacuating the city and they can't stay in the airport either. So basically, they're fucked. That's really scummy.
 
Meh, give the unions what they want and blame them in 10-20 years when the company dies "naturally" from them bleeding it dry.
 
Joates said:
Meh, give the unions what they want and blame them in 10-20 years when the company dies "naturally" from them bleeding it dry.
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This reads like a post constructed from preconceptions (real talk: prejudices) about unions rather than from an assessment of this particular case. Which is to say, bullshit.
 
videogamer said:
Why is Quantas losing money on international flights? The US airlines make their money on the international flights while the domestic flights are less of a moneymaker.
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When Qantas was sold by the Govt into private ownership it came with a load of conditions that make it hard for Qantas to turn a filthy high profit, especially on international flights. I expect Joyce will somehow use this to get those conditions scrapped.
 
midonnay said:
alot less competition domestically than the americans

also their brand..... Been living on their trusted name and safety record for decades.

more info on the international environment

http://www.theage.com.au/business/nationalise-qantas-international-20111014-1lo1o.html
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Misleading article. What does majority owned by government have to do with anything? Both Emirates and Singapore have long denied the existence of any government subsidies in their operation.
 
zbeeb said:
And why would you talk to unions when they expect so much from a company that does not make money?

Or forget about profit. Compare their demands to other airlines costs, such and Emirates and Singapore Airlines (who I would consider major international competitors). The costs they would incur are so much higher that it would be impossible to compete in price.

The unions are being unrealistic in demands, if they got what they want you would've have qantas now, but not in 5 years.
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The demands that they keep their jobs? How is that unrealistic. If they loose their jobs they have to start again at the bottom - all the captains become second officers again at a new company. Their fear is completely understandable. Qantas are just greedy morons, and the papers keep painting the unions in a bad light by writing absolute bullshit and making stuff up.


Zionyx said:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-30/joyce-defends-qantas-grounding/3608780

I feel it's a tough position for him. Also, air lions. I like his accent.
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bawww, keeping your job in an industry based on superiority is "an outrageous demand"? Maybe you should have just agreed to negotiate with them and they wouldn't have to strike. I have no sympathy for this moron at all.
 
http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/qantas-ceo-has-gone-mad-say-pilots-20111029-1mpkp.html

Qantas' decision to ground the entire Qantas fleet is "holding a knife to the nation's throat" and CEO Alan Joyce has "gone mad", the Australian and International Pilots Association (AIPA) says.

AIPA vice president Richard Woodward said the move was "premeditated, unnecessary and grossly irresponsible".

"Alan Joyce is holding a knife to the nation's throat," Captain Woodward said.


"No-one predicted this, because no one thought Alan Joyce was completely mad.

"This is a stunning overreaction. It is straight-up blackmail.

"I knew he was trying to kill Qantas, but I didn't know he wanted to do it this quickly.

"This is a grave and serious situation and the board should move to sack Mr Joyce immediately. This is the saddest day of my 25 years with Qantas."

He said AIPA's industrial action has been limited to making brief, positive in-flight announcements and wearing red ties.

"In response to this, Mr Joyce has now locked out every pilot working for Qantas. This is nothing short of crazy behaviour," he said.

"Mr Joyce is stranding thousands of Qantas passengers all across the globe so he can engage in his mad game of one-upmanship. All so he can pursue his delusion that Qantas should be an Asian airline, instead of an Australian one.

"We believe this action is unlawful and we are currently seeking legal advice.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel...-say-pilots-20111029-1mpkp.html#ixzz1cET1uG74
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AIPA isn't pulling any punches.
 
http://abc.com.au/news/2011-10-30/pilots-say-email-proves-qantas-made-calculated-move/3609006

The pilots union has produced an email which it says proves Qantas was planning to ground its fleet days before the airline claims to have made the decision.

Qantas CEO Alan Joyce says he only decided to take the unprecedented move on Saturday morning, after unions ramped up their industrial rhetoric in the wake of the airline's AGM on Friday.

But the Australian International Pilots Association (AIPA) has obtained an email apparently sent by Jetstar CEO Bruce Buchanan last night advising his staff of the actions being taken by Qantas.

The date on the memo was Wednesday October 26 and is addressed to team leaders saying: "By now you may be aware Qantas has announced a precautionary grounding of its fleet from 5pm Saturday", and warned of the Monday lockout.

AIPA vice-president Captain Richard Woodward says the date on the email reveals the extent of the airline's "calculated" plans to freeze operations.

"It is dated Wednesday 26th of October - so this has been planned and orchestrated," he said.

"You don't stop an airline overnight.

"This has been a long considered plan by Qantas to escalate this dispute, right when CHOGM was happening, damaging our international reputation and just before Melbourne Cup, which is one of the busiest days of the year for the airline."

Jetstar says the date on the memo is incorrect and simple human error is to blame.

The airline says it used an old banner for the memo and forgot to change the date.

AIPA has also revealed it is looking into taking legal action against Qantas, describing the decision to ground the fleet as "insane" and possibly in breach of the Fair Work Act.

Speaking outside the Qantas domestic terminal at Sydney Airport this morning, Mr Woodward said the union had its legal team looking into the legal options.

"We think that Alan [Joyce] may have been in breach of the Fair Work Act by his actions," Mr Woodward said.

"He has locked out the short-haul pilots, they are not in this dispute - their award is not up for negotiation until next year."

Mr Woodward says the short-haul operations of Qantas are the most profitable arm of the airline.

"It's an insane reaction," Mr Woodward said.

He criticised the company for trying to upstage the dispute with the union, saying the airline was trying to "goad us into action".

Mr Joyce says the airline always has contingency plans, but the decision to ground the fleet was only made on Saturday morning.

He says Qantas was forced into a corner when it met with unions after the AGM and they ramped up their rhetoric.

"Unfortunately after the AGM the unions were more aggressive," he said.

"They were talking about 48-hour stoppages, ramping her up, baking us for a year, for this lasting for a long time.

"They walked out of the meeting. They said they were annoyed at the shareholders massively supporting Qantas.

"They weren't listening to our shareholders and then they talked about escalating the dispute.

"That was the threshold moment that changed everything."
No plans to strike

Mr Woodward said Qantas pilots never had any intention of going on strike and claims to the contrary were simply untrue.

"All we were thinking about doing was not ringing in before heading into work," he said.

"We are very conservative people, we know that Qantas passengers hold us in trust... they trust us to get them there safely and we always intended on doing that."

AIPA said it was seeking a new clause in the enterprise bargaining agreement with Qantas that would ensure that all of the airline's flights were operated by pilots from the airline as opposed to being outsourced.

"If the airline wants to grow overseas, fine, but not [at the] expense of a great Australian icon," Mr Woodward said.

He said the only industrial action Qantas pilots had been taking was in-flight announcements about the industrial dispute, as well as the donning of red ties that carried the message "Qantas flight, Qantas pilots".
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Ugh. Wankers of the highest order.
 
Kermit The Dog said:
Enlighten me?
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This is a feat beyond my imagination, let alone my capacities.

Their reputation is not good, although perhaps not catastrophically worse than the norm for budget airlines. They did once taxi for takeoff with the boarding stairs still attached, which strikes me as a mistake of unique aplomb. They have been repeatedly nailed for cost and corner-cutting on maintenance and safety checks.

And they pull shit like this.

There are also concerns Jetstar's Singapore-based crew do not have the same protections as Australian crew.

Lateline has obtained a copy of the contract for Jetstar's Singapore-based flight attendants that states crew can be called on to work shifts up to 20 hours long.

But a clause in the contract also shows staff can be forced to work even longer than the 20-hour limit without consultation.

"The Planned Limit and Operational Extensions may be extended by agreement between Jetstar and the Supplier," the contract reads.
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And this.

Airlines had cut the training time for cabin crew and were relying more on cadet pilots to drive down their operating costs, Mr Klouth said. Under the training system cadets effectively ended up paying an airline for their qualifications.

"The cadets at Jetstar I have just finished training, one of the cadets is getting paid in New Zealand dollars but is required to pay back his training in Australian dollars," he said.
The New Zealand currency has depreciated 6.4 per cent against the Australian dollar since June 30, 2010.

Mr Klouth said shortening the training time for cabin crew had implications for the operation of the aircraft and passenger safety.

"If you are crammed with six weeks' worth of knowledge in three weeks, it is inevitable that you are not going to be able to recall all the important pieces of information that you need to," he said.

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/tra...lot-trainer-20110215-1auun.html#ixzz1cF0gA9Xe
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To be fair, there are some incidents logged in their safety record which are categorically not their fault.

A Jetstar Airbus A320-200, flight JQ0074 from Darwin,NT to Sydney,NS (Australia), had to return to Darwin after a passenger stabbed himself with a toothbrush. The passenger covered in blood was delivered to a hospital.
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Salazar said:
This is a feat beyond my imagination, let alone my capacities.

Their reputation is not good, although perhaps not catastrophically worse than the norm for budget airlines. They did once taxi for takeoff with the boarding stairs still attached, which strikes me as a mistake of unique aplomb. They have been repeatedly nailed for cost and corner-cutting on maintenance and safety checks.

And they pull shit like this.



And this.



To be fair, there are some incidents logged in their safety record which are categorically not their fault.
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My post was rather a prompt to see if this would register as another instance of Salazar-style, hyperbole-laden posting self-immolation, and you didn't disappoint. You rarely do.

From my experiences and from what I've read or seen, Jetstar is a by the numbers, low-cost airline with an acceptable track record known for a few minor incidents of concern, but certainly not the troubled, hapless airline you've attempted to paint them as. Ease up, friend.
 
You just don't fucken read posts. Waste of time.

All that's missing is some retarded stalker-ish implication that you know me.
 
Salazar said:
You just don't fucken read posts. Waste of time.

All that's missing is some retarded stalker-ish implication that you know me.
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You said Jetstar's trademark was human and mechanical error. Are you standing by that claim?

The problem is I read your fucking posts expecting some level of reasonable, rational thought.
 
Kermit The Dog said:
You said Jetstar's trademark was human and mechanical error. Are you standing by that claim?
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Anybody who expects to function adequately in the world of adult conversation needs to be able to handle and distinguish expressions (half-jokes) like that one. If you intend to carry on as if I intended the statement with maximum and undifferentiated seriousness, then you are only embarrassing yourself.

Your trademark is retarded trolling. I mean it. I stand by it.
 
ElyrionX said:
Great move by the CEO. Unions need to be taught a lesson.
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Possibly, but not when it punishes the entire country, destroys the Qantas brand and makes us an international spectacle because of stranded CHOGM delegates. He should justify his million dollar bonus and find a smarter approach.
 
Job benefits don't exist in a vacuum. Cheering for unions to be taught a lesson is biting of your nose to spite your face, as getting rid of them full stop will lead to decreased benefits in all sectors.
 
ElyrionX said:
Great move by the CEO. Unions need to be taught a lesson.
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Even if that is the case, stranding passengers internationally is not the way to do that. Shit move any way you look at it.

Edit:
http://abc.com.au/news/2011-10-30/q...hrow-singapore-airports/3608618?section=world
Hundreds of Qantas passengers are also waiting in the Thai capital, Bangkok, after being stranded after the airline was grounded yesterday.

Passengers who were en route from London to Sydney went no further after they landed in Bangkok for what was supposed to be a short transit stop.
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There is no way to justify that shit. Cancelling a flight during a transit stop? Fucked up.
 
this really has nothing much to do with Union demanding too much money..... it is more about job security.

After Qantas was privatised, there were many protections put in place by legislation (Qantas Sale Act) to ensure the "aussie-ness" of its operations.

eg: max 49 percent foreign ownership, majority of operations has to be based locally etc.

But management has been slowly bypassing the "spirit" of the legislation by moving focus towards its low cost carrier Jetstar hence the industrial action.

There is actually an amendment in the senate tabled by Xenophon and the Greens that is aimed at shutting down this loophole called the Still Call Australia Home bill which was being debated on friday.
 
I think the thing is if the Qantas Sale Act and the Still Call Australia Home Acts are to be enforced by the parliament

then the government is going to have to come to the party and subsidise QANTAS international like NZ does with Air NZ or reduce its tax or do something

the government cannot force a company to remain Australia without some level of support to do so.

No other company is under those rules. Companies should not be under the rules. QANTAS is special yes, and the company is hugely relied upon for the economy, but given that is the case, the Australian government needs to help qantas in financial subsidies to ensure its survival in a government owned dominated airspace
 
Choc said:
I think the thing is if the Qantas Sale Act and the Still Call Australia Home Acts are to be enforced by the parliament

then the government is going to have to come to the party and subsidise QANTAS international like NZ does with Air NZ or reduce its tax or do something

the government cannot force a company to remain Australia without some level of support to do so.

No other company is under those rules. Companies should not be under the rules. QANTAS is special yes, and the company is hugely relied upon for the economy, but given that is the case, the Australian government needs to help qantas in financial subsidies to ensure its survival in a government owned dominated airspace
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that is fair enough..... but I think Joyce and co are more interested in packaging the airline to be sold off to private equity firms in the future.

How else can we explain this economic terrorism?
 
what i find amazing is joyces reasoning for the insta-grounding

he doesn't trust his staff not to do something bananas because he is locking them out

yeah a pilots really going to plummet 747/380 into the ground because of it isnt he, shit.

Also there is THREE pilots, not all 3 would agree if someone did go nuts, and the aircraft when adjusting things require by the Captain and First Officer computers to be in sync.

Leaving passengers in Bangkok which the Government is telling Australians not to visit is aborrant. They should at least fly those passengers home.

Whats amazing is

There are pilots stuck in London, Singapore etc who were away with work who are now stuck there. From tommorow they don't get paid and they are stuck with no money in a foreign port

They can't fly home because whenever this grounding lifts, THEY have to be there to fly the planes home.

The pilots have taken zero direct industrial action. In my opinion at least they should be continued to be paid so that when the grounding ends, they can actually fly the craft.

The highest ranked captain gets paid $500,000 a year to fly twice a week over 450 people safely from port to port.

The ceo gets paid 5 million to sit in an office looking at graphs and making decisions

it just does not make sense

put joyce in the pilot simulator with a number of failures. if he can manage to land it, he keeps his jbo
 
Leaving aside Choc's fantasies of Alan Joyce sobbing and begging for forgiveness in a sim cockpit, the potential lawsuits from tourism operators sound tasty.
 
Choc said:
then the government is going to have to come to the party and subsidise QANTAS international like NZ does with Air NZ or reduce its tax or do something
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AFAIK the NZ government doesn't subsidise Air NZ as such, though they have a significant shareholding from when they bailed out the airline 10 years ago. Since then Air NZ reinvented itself, and is both profitable on its own merits and has world class service.
 
speaking of which.... Qantas also gave the kiwis the finger

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-new...pacted-by-qantas/story-e6frfku0-1226180838361

AIR New Zealand's baggage handling and check-in services in Australia will be affected by Qantas's decision to lock out its staff tomorrow.

Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce also grounded the company's entire domestic and international fleet on Saturday because of ongoing industrial action.

Qantas is Air NZ's ground handler for check in and baggage in Australia, and Air NZ group general manager Australasia Bruce Parton is in Australia to ensure Air NZ services are running smoothly.

Air NZ was putting contingency plans in place to keep its service running when Qantas locked out workers from 10pm NZT (8pm AEDT) tomorrow, he said today.

Air New Zealand has offered to put on extra flights to help its alliance partner, Virgin Blue, which was enormous pressure to provide extra flights after the grounding, Mr Parton said.

Air NZ wanted to distance itself from what Qantas was doing, he said.

"For us what's surprising is the lack of any sort of notice period on this ... This appears to be a knee jerk reaction to say right, 'We're putting the planes on the ground - you know, thousands of stranded customers'," he said.

Mr Parton said the situation in Australia was "very, very tense and volatile".

"There a lot of people under a lot of pressure over here. It's extraordinary," he said.
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