Support NeoGAF

[poisonelf]

Actually not a bad deal, if you can get German efficiency and German investment. The only thing I dislike is that Germany isn't as good at finances as it should be, most of the Bundesländer still spend more than they can get. Germany wouldn't be the harshest drill sergeant you can get.

Really?

Greece has fought for freedom and independence from 1821 against the Turks, during the Balkan Wars, during World War I, World War II, a bloody Civil War, had a German-imposed king we threw out, a CIA-imposed junta we threw out.

Any 'drill sergeant' can go fuck himself.

Also, I don't see Germany coming here to turn us into Germany. They're coming here to use us as a colony. Every indication so far points to this. Demanding further taxation and cuts to salaries to pay the banks when we have a huge increase in homeless people, 20% unemployment, huge rise in suicides, closing down of small businesses.
Germany wants (naturally, if unethically), to gain from all this. They are currently asking for Special Economic Zones with minimal taxation and minimal worker rights to honor us with their investments. They are asking for deals such as 'project helios' where they are given huge land tracts for free, produce energy that is sent to Germany and pay no taxes.

Yeah, I'm really excited with our new benevolent masters.

 

[Mael]

Really?

Greece has fought for freedom and independence from 1821 against the Turks, during the Balkan Wars, during World War I, World War II, a bloody Civil War, had a German-imposed king we threw out, a CIA-imposed junta we threw out.

Any 'drill sergeant' can go fuck himself.

Also, I don't see Germany coming here to turn us into Germany. They're coming here to use us as a colony. Every indication so far points to this. Demanding further taxation and cuts to salaries to pay the banks when we have a huge increase in homeless people, 20% unemployment, huge rise in suicides, closing down of small businesses.
Germany wants (naturally, if unethically), to gain from all this. They are currently asking for Special Economic Zones with minimal taxation and minimal worker rights to honor us with their investments. They are asking for deals such as 'project helios' where they are given huge land tracts for free, produce energy that is sent to Germany and pay no taxes.

Yeah, I'm really excited with our new benevolent masters.

So this is why they dropped nuclear energy?
Guess you should happy to become the next place where Germany will outsource their plants :/
From a pure strategical POV, this is actually a very interesting development.
Let's hope that if they put someone in charge and you throw him out, you can put in real representatives this time.

 

[Joni]

Other countries worked hard to reduce their debt before entering the Euro when they could, and that includes other countries that suffered from the different wars the last 200 years.

 

[Kabouter]

If you believe you're getting screwed, leave the Eurozone. Greece got everybody in trouble by FRAUDING their own state financials just to get in the Euro. Others countries had to work hard to get in.

Yeah, was a lot of hard work for the Italians to cook the books sufficiently

 

[Pachterballs]

Im surprised its only 53%. I'd think itd be a much higher percentage.

 

[Neo C.]

So this is why they dropped nuclear energy?
Guess you should happy to become the next place where Germany will outsource their plants :/
From a pure strategical POV, this is actually a very interesting development.
Let's hope that if they put someone in charge and you throw him out, you can put in real representatives this time.

That's what I want to say. It's sad that those plans for solar and wind plants haven't worked out yet, but the deal can be done. It's a win-win situation.

 

[twobear]

When Merkel and Sarkozy speak with eachother, what language do they use?

english

 

[Mael]

That's what I want to say. It's sad that those plans for solar and wind plants haven't worked out yet, but the deal can be done. It's a win-win situation.

Basically stealing greece property to resolve a problem you have brought on yourself is a win-win situation?

Yeah, was a lot of hard work for the Italians to cook the books sufficiently

Oh come on we HAD to have the italians! How would we go tour the Vatican and the wonderful Italian marvels without them!

english

That's a good joke.

 

[PdotMichael]

Really?

Greece has fought for freedom and independence from 1821 against the Turks, during the Balkan Wars, during World War I, World War II, a bloody Civil War, had a German-imposed king we threw out, a CIA-imposed junta we threw out.

Any 'drill sergeant' can go fuck himself.

Also, I don't see Germany coming here to turn us into Germany. They're coming here to use us as a colony. Every indication so far points to this. Demanding further taxation and cuts to salaries to pay the banks when we have a huge increase in homeless people, 20% unemployment, huge rise in suicides, closing down of small businesses.
Germany wants (naturally, if unethically), to gain from all this. They are currently asking for Special Economic Zones with minimal taxation and minimal worker rights to honor us with their investments. They are asking for deals such as 'project helios' where they are given huge land tracts for free, produce energy that is sent to Germany and pay no taxes.

Yeah, I'm really excited with our new benevolent masters.

You believe there is a single country in the world who would invest in Greece without some financial incentives?

This is normal investment business and a big anti-Germany attitude is pretty unnecessary.

 

[poisonelf]

If you believe you're getting screwed, leave the Eurozone. Greece got everybody in trouble by FRAUDING their own state financials just to get in the Euro. Others countries had to work hard to get in.

You know who fudged the numbers? Lukas Papademos, he was head of Greek National Bank then and head of the Euro endeavor. You know where he is today? He is the unelected, imposed prime minister of Greece, the man Merkel and Sarkozy happily accepted as a bright beacon of hope for Greece.
Also, he was manager (or director, don't know the term) of the European Central Bank.

What I'm trying to say is that if you honestly believe that the heads of the European Banks were innocent children who knew nothing about Greek numbers and Goldman Sachs doings, I'm sorry but you're naive.

Also, what you probably don't know, is that there are millions here wanting to leave the Euro at this point. It will be harsh at first but -if- we had real politicians and not bought traitors, Greece is a pretty rich country and we could manage.

The EU won't let us because of the meltdown that will ensue. There is no Greek government now essentially, it's all TROIKA policy. If they wanted us out, we'd be out. Perhaps we will leave at some point, but lots of things have to be taken care of first, which is what they've been at the past couple of years.

 

[dorn.]

Yeah, I'm really excited with our new benevolent masters.

But everything you listed is what you think will happen if Greece doesn't leave the Euro. Shouldn't you be happy then that "53% of Germans say Greece needs to leave the Euro"?

You come in here complaining of german media bias and then go on some nationalistically infused tirade about the whole world gaining from greece's misery, which is bullshit. It's lose-lose for everyone involved.

 

[Mato]

If you believe you're getting screwed, leave the Eurozone. Greece got everybody in trouble by FRAUDING their own state financials just to get in the Euro. Others countries had to work hard to get in.

Actually that's a lie. Greece didn't really fake anything, it's been proven many times Greece's finance was borderline healthy to join the euro, although it's economy was immature. But really the idea that 10m people can be such a massive cause of concern for a union of 700m is absurd. Can't you see Greeks to a large extent are being used as a scapegoat? The most important reason behind all the turmoil is globalization, i.e. China. Greece is just a drop in the ocean.

 

[Mael]

But everything you listed is what you think will happen if Greece doesn't leave the Euro. Shouldn't you be happy then that "53% of Germans say Greece needs to leave the Euro"?

You come in here complaining of german media bias and then go on some nationalistically infused tirade about the whole world gaining from greece's misery, which is bullshit. It's lose-lose for everyone involved.

Actually it's a win situation for all the hedge funds that bet on a Greek default...

 

[poisonelf]

But everything you listed is what you think will happen if Greece doesn't leave the Euro. Shouldn't you be happy then that "53% of Germans say Greece needs to leave the Euro"?

You come in here complaining of german media bias and then go on some nationalistically infused tirade about the whole world gaining from greece's misery, which is bullshit. It's lose-lose for everyone involved.

Where did I say that the whole world is gaining? Germany is gaining. Germany=whole world?

About leaving the Euro, see my post above.

 

[dorn.]

Then explain to me again, how exactly is Germany gaining anything in this situation? You spewed something about debt and interest but seem to have very limited knowledge of how state debt works.

 

[Raynes]

It's amazing how bringing up WWII is considered ridiculous, and sometimes even a sort of bad manners. It was 70 years ago, some people cannot comprehend how it's the source of much of EU's current form.

I won't even touch on how Greece was destroyed and insane amounts of gold from Greek banks were carried away, but Greece still has not been compensated for the occupational loan.
That's a loan the Nazi-puppet government took and gave it to aid the German war machine. Believe it or not, Greece still pays loans and interest rates for that. I think it amounts to 150+ billion in today's money.

So you want Germany to pay them reparations 80 years on after they forgiven its debts in the 1930s?

 

[poisonelf]

Then explain to me again, how exactly is Germany gaining anything in this situation? You spewed something about debt and interest but seem to have very limited knowledge of how state debt works.

Germany is gaining by borrowing at 0% and lending at ~4%. Germany is gaining by a devalued Euro greatly helping exports. Germany has gained by getting no contest deals in Greece through bribing our disgusting politicians on huge business such as military sales, infrastructure etc.
Germany is currently at an economical power peak. You think that's despite the crisis, or partly because of it?

Also, some people are saying I'm spewing hate against Germany. First of all I very, very much distinguish between German leadership, policies, and the German people, so don't tell me I'm just "hating on Germany".

But what's really funny is that all I'm doing is providing facts.

Gaining from the 'bailouts' through interest rates? Fact.
The World War II occupational loan? Fact.
Asking for further cuts when there is a borderline humanitarian crisis in Greece and the economy is ruined? Fact.
Asking for (insane imo) mortgages on Greek public assets, land, energy, everything, according to the Memorandum to be signed for the loans? Fact.
Asking for Special Economic Zones like colonialists, having gained business deals through bribing our corrupt politicians, controlling Greece now through TROIKA, having a 'deputy minister' for Greece and asking for permanent commissioner, all facts.

So if this sounds as hate filled it says something doesn't it?

EDIT:

So you want Germany to pay them reparations 80 years on after they forgiven its debts in the 1930s?

Not reparations as in "pay for the damages", even though Germany does still owe Greece. But pay back the loan they took and we still pay??? Well of course.

Also, what you're saying makes little sense since WWII ended in 1945, but I guess you confused the dates.

 

[WorriedCitizen]

It's really a lose-lose situation for Greece but the Greeks need to evaluate whats more important to them their national pride or their standard of living. It's obvious they cant fix their own problems because of some deeply ingrained mentality problems. So the alternative for that is foreign intervention. If they keep doing things their way they will probably turn into a poor country like Albania soon enough.

 

[poisonelf]

It's really a lose-lose situation for Greece but the Greeks need to evaluate whats more important to them their national pride or their standard of living. It's obvious they cant fix their own problems because of some deeply ingrained mentality problems. So the alternative for that is foreign intervention. If they keep doing things their way they will probably turn into a poor country like Albania soon enough.

If the intervention was actually helpful and not profiteering scams many would actually welcome it. I partly agree. The only way for Greece is to re-imagine its social structures by somehow, magically, ridding ourselves of the ruling caste.

 

[Neo C.]

Basically stealing greece property to resolve a problem you have brought on yourself is a win-win situation?

It creates jobs. What Greece needs now is investment, and it's clear that solar and wind plants are more effective in Greece than in Germany. If the Greek government is smart, it would try to find a good compromise, only then you can create a win-win situation. Total opposition doesn't solve anything.

 

[Mael]

It creates jobs. What Greece needs now is investment, and it's clear that solar and wind plants are more effective in Greece than in Germany. If the Greek government is smart, it would try to find a good compromise, only then you can create a win-win situation. Total opposition doesn't solve anything.

Well I guess if we go that way we should stop outsourcing to China and build plants in Greece since the labor is extremly cheap and all that since we don't need to pay them all that much...
Technically it does create jobs but I actually doubt it's creating anything but jobs for German companies.

 

[HammerOfThor]

Didnt Greece lie in the first place to get into the EU by greatly overestimating their reliability and worth?

 

[Gustav]

You know who fudged the numbers? Lukas Papademos, he was head of Greek National Bank then and head of the Euro endeavor. You know where he is today? He is the unelected, imposed prime minister of Greece, the man Merkel and Sarkozy happily accepted as a bright beacon of hope for Greece.
Also, he was manager (or director, don't know the term) of the European Central Bank.

What I'm trying to say is that if you honestly believe that the heads of the European Banks were innocent children who knew nothing about Greek numbers and Goldman Sachs doings, I'm sorry but you're naive.

Also, what you probably don't know, is that there are millions here wanting to leave the Euro at this point. It will be harsh at first but -if- we had real politicians and not bought traitors, Greece is a pretty rich country and we could manage.

The EU won't let us because of the meltdown that will ensue. There is no Greek government now essentially, it's all TROIKA policy. If they wanted us out, we'd be out. Perhaps we will leave at some point, but lots of things have to be taken care of first, which is what they've been at the past couple of years.

Just wanted to drop in to tell you that I appreciate your perspective on the matter and that I wish I could truly follow what you're saying. I'm just too darn dumb to understand global economics.

 

[Raynes]

Not reparations as in "pay for the damages", even though Germany does still owe Greece. But pay back the loan they took and we still pay??? Well of course.

Also, what you're saying makes little sense since WWII ended in 1945, but I guess you confused the dates.

Yeah sorry, I meant 70 years.
I don't at all think it's reasonable to ask for those loans back, as I said they had been forgiven its debts. It's history now, if they wanted compensation surely they would have asked for it a few years back, it's not Germany's responsibility to seek out nations who they had wronged 70 years ago under an entirely different regime, and compensate them.

 

[poisonelf]

It creates jobs. What Greece needs now is investment, and it's clear that solar and wind plants are more effective in Greece than in Germany. If the Greek government is smart, it would try to find a good compromise, only then you can create a win-win situation. Total opposition doesn't solve anything.

Jobs at 1/3 the previous salary, no rights, for the gain of our overlords? No thank you, we'll look for a different way.

Also, again, the government currently is not fighting for what's best for Greece. The government is comprised by the banker Papademos, the ridiculous traitor Papandreou who planned to get us into the IMF, and his friend and roommate from the university they went to in the US, head of the "opposition" party Samaras.
They're involved with hedge funds and banking interests and subdue protests through unheard of (for Greece) violence. It's a form of a junta here. You obviously can't believe that even after the many links and videos I've shown you in other threads.

Just wanted to drop in to tell you that I appreciate your perspective on the matter and that I wish I could truly follow what you're saying. I'm just too darn dumb to understand global economics.

Thanks for the support. Actually that's what Greece needs now, not money, but support, for the people to realize that the "lazy thieves who party" thing is an outright lie used to blanket what is happening here.

 

[Neo C.]

Well I guess if we go that way we should stop outsourcing to China and build plants in Greece since the labor is extremly cheap and all that since we don't need to pay them all that much...
Technically it does create jobs but I actually doubt it's creating anything but jobs for German companies.

That's why I said it needs a good compromise. The government must find a way to get a profit for their citizen as well. You play the game stupid, you either get nothing (solar plants won't be build) or only the german companies get the profits. Right now all we have is nationalism on both sides: Merkel doesn't want solar plants in Greece subsidize with german tax money, Greece is on anti-Germany mode.

 

[poisonelf]

Yeah sorry, I meant 70 years.
I don't at all think it's reasonable to ask for those loans back, as I said they had been forgiven its debts. It's history now, if they wanted compensation surely they would have asked for it a few years back, it's not Germany's responsibility to seek out nations who they had wronged 70 years ago under an entirely different regime, and compensate them.

Oh it's history? We only repaid the loans from 1821 for the freedom war against the Ottomans a few years back (I think 5 years). Can you believe that? Well it's fact, that's how finances work.

Since it's history perhaps we could stop paying interest rates for loans taken to repay the occupational loan now? That's no history, that's still paying.

 

[Mael]

That's why I said it needs a good compromise. The government must find a way to get a profit for their citizen as well. You play the game stupid, you either get nothing (solar plants won't be build) or only the german companies get the profits. Right now all we have is nationalism on both sides: Merkel doesn't want solar plants in Greece subsidize with german tax money, Greece is on anti-Germany mode.

But there's basically nothing to be gained here for Greece, whether the panels are build or not they earn peanut as it is.
Might as well sell the land to some Chinese tycoon so that he can build a zoo or something.
Can't exactly blame Greece here.
It's even more stupid if Germany planned on that in order to offset the energy they'll lose by no longer having nuclear reactors.

 

[Raynes]

Oh it's history? We only repaid the loans from 1821 for the freedom war against the Ottomans a few years back (I think 5 years). Can you believe that? Well it's fact, that's how finances work.

Since it's history perhaps we could stop paying interest rates for loans taken to repay the occupational loan now? That's no history, that's still paying.

Did the Greeks even ever ask for the compensation?

 

[Mael]

Did the Greeks even ever ask for the compensation?

I doubt the general population is even aware of that.

 

[Neo C.]

Jobs at 1/3 the previous salary, no rights, for the gain of our overlords? No thank you, we'll look for a different way.

Also, again, the government currently is not fighting for what's best for Greece. The government is comprised by the banker Papademos, the ridiculous traitor Papandreou who planned to get us into the IMF, and his friend and roommate from the university they went to in the US, head of the "opposition" party Samaras.
They're involved with hedge funds and banking interests and subdue protests through unheard of (for Greece) violence. It's a form of a junta here. You obviously can't believe that even after the many links and videos I've shown you in other threads.

It isn't that I don't believe you, it just doesn't matter. Most people in Europe just want economic growth. And not messing with Greece for over 2 years.

But there's basically nothing to be gained here for Greece, whether the panels are build or not they earn peanut as it is.
Might as well sell the land to some Chinese tycoon so that he can build a zoo or something.
Can't exactly blame Greece here.
It's even more stupid if Germany planned on that in order to offset the energy they'll lose by no longer having nuclear reactors.

You are just jelly because the Germans might have an other solution than buying nuke power from France.

 

[poisonelf]

Did the Greeks even ever ask for the compensation?

No. That's what paid for and bought politicians is all about. Greece has hardly been a sovereign state at any point in its modern history. Just think that our current parties stem from what were called the "French, English and Russian" parties, depending on the influence.
Parts of Greece were added by the grace of European powers as late as 1912.

 

[Mael]

You are just jelly because the Germans might have an other solution than buying nuke power from France.

Damn right I am!
How will we pay for the maintenance if we can't rob you on that?

 

[Taiser]

 

[dorn.]

Germany is gaining by borrowing at 0% and lending at ~4%.

No. The debt will never ever be paid back, it's not even expected to be. Germany will take a net loss on this, the question is if it is outweighed by the benefit of a stable Euro(something I don't agree with, I think Greece leaving wouldn't destabilize the Euro, but even put back confidence into the markets).
As for the "Germany getting interest free money" part, that just shows how fucked up the current situation really is. People's expectations are so bad they are willing to take a net loss just to park their money somewhere relatively safe.

Germany is gaining by a devalued Euro greatly helping exports.

People always say that because they have "exports are good, imports are bad" stuck in their brains somehow. The truth is, an export surplus is just a delayed import surplus. At least that's how it's supposed to be. Otherwise, you're either importing capital from the rest of the world or giving it away. The latter is the case with Germany, which has had huge export surpluses for I don't even know how many years.

Germany is currently at an economical power peak. You think that's despite the crisis, or partly because of it?

No it is not and if it was, most definitely despite it.

Also, some people are telling I'm spewing hate against Germany. First of all I very, very much distinguish between German leadership, policies, and the German people, so don't tell me I'm just "hating on Germany".

You made this a "people vs. people" situation by singling out Germany, calling it a colonial power and somehow bringing World War II reparations into this. I get the feeling you are way more biased on this subject than you care to admit.

As for the rest:

Gaining from the 'bailouts' through interest rates? Fact. Nope. See above.

The World War II occupational loan? Fact. I honestly don't know about this, but I also don't see how it affects the situation other than it beeing an old grudge that needlessly complicates things

Asking for further cuts when there is a borderline humanitarian crisis in Greece and the economy is ruined? Fact. Yep, which is why I think it's insane not to let Greece default and leave the Euro.

Asking for (insane imo) mortgages on Greek public assets, land, energy, everything, according to the Memorandum to be signed for the loans? Fact.
Asking for Special Economic Zones like colonialists, having gained business deals through bribing our corrupt politicians, controlling Greece now through TROIKA, having a 'deputy minister' for Greece and asking for permanent commissioner, all facts. Please provide citations to all of this stuff as I'd like to read up on this.

 

[poisonelf]

various answers

I'm out, you win.

 

[Raynes]

No. That's what paid for and bought politicians is all about. Greece has hardly been a sovereign state at any point in its modern history. Just think that our current parties stem from what were called the "French, English and Russian" parties, depending on the influence.
Parts of Greece were added by the grace of European powers as late as 1912.

What you're complaining about is something which nothing can reasonably be done. You say Greeks should get compensation, maybe they should. The only way they'd get this compensation is if Germany went around looking for countries they should compensate for the war, which is not their responsibility. So unless Greece ask for this, Germany can't do anything.

 

[Lord Ghirahim]

34% of Germans knows what's best for Germany.

 

[poisonelf]

What you're complaining about is something which nothing can reasonably be done. You say Greeks should get compensation, maybe they should. The only way they'd get this compensation is if Germany went around looking for countries they should compensate for the war, which is not their responsibility. So unless Greece ask for this, Germany can't do anything.

I never started arguing about what Germany should do. I only mentioned that it's rich that the people who seem to hate on us the most are Germans, because of the various reasons I provided.

But since I can't have such discussions without providing links and facts (which is only fair and I'm not saying that people shouldn't ask me for citation), and since I don't have the time or energy at this point, I'm out, I've said my opinion (again ).

If anyone really cares that much you can follow my post history, I've provided links and sources for perhaps 90% of what I've said in this thread.

 

[Facism]

Just wanted to drop in to tell you that I appreciate your perspective on the matter and that I wish I could truly follow what you're saying. I'm just too darn dumb to understand global economics.

i just wanted to drop in to tell you i don't appreciate your previous post implying that I'm a murderer and racist based on my ethnicity.

Elf i hope things look up for your country mate, i really do.

 

[A less bigoted Deku]

Is it constructive to play the blame game?

The Germans and the French banks enabled Greece , but I don't think that's really at issue.

The issue appears to be Northern Europe realizing the European monetary project requires quite a bit more than 'historical cred' ; this is true also for the Italians. And there's no doubt the siesta like mood of the club med countries of retirement at 45, state pensions at 100% of earnings is unsustainable.

That's why you get poll numbers like the ones in the OP. The economies are not compatible, and the concern appears to be more of the worry that the Germans and the rich part of Europe will continue to subsidize the profligacy, even if is vastly reduced, and still get the blame and WW2 stuff dregged up as is happening right now.

It is worth noting that in most other federal unions there is a mechanism- in terms of transfer payments - from the richer provinces to the poorer one via federal social programs and federal spending. In Europe, where there is no United States of Europe , no such mechanism exist, so the transfer payments are taking the form of bailouts.

The European public has been weened on decades of triumphalist attitue about how awesome and great an empire can be re-created with treaties and consensus and most are just realizing the true cost of their model.

 

[Sloane]

I never started arguing about what Germany should do. I only mentioned that it's rich that the people who seem to hate on us the most are Germans, because of the various reasons I provided.

Why do you think Germans hate you though? Because "Greece needs to leave the Euro?" Not exactly the same thing.

Other than that, I understand your frustration on a certain level but I agree with most things dorn wrote.

 

[poisonelf]

Why do you think Germans hate you though? Because "Greece needs to leave the Euro?" Not exactly the same thing.

Other than that, I understand your frustration on a certain level but I agree with most things dorn wrote.

I didn't state that many Germans hate on us based on this topic, but based on various articles from Spiegel and Bild, reports from Greek media (which admittedly are not to be trusted), as well as attitudes online.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

Im surprised its only 53%. I'd think itd be a much higher percentage.

Democracy finally worked!!

 

[Kinyou]

Yeah, was a lot of hard work for the Italians to cook the books sufficiently

I think the only country that really deserved to join the EU was Estonia. They followed all the regulations and at the moment is their economy doing amazing.

 

[BobsRevenge]

Really?

Greece has fought for freedom and independence from 1821 against the Turks, during the Balkan Wars, during World War I, World War II, a bloody Civil War, had a German-imposed king we threw out, a CIA-imposed junta we threw out.

Any 'drill sergeant' can go fuck himself.

Also, I don't see Germany coming here to turn us into Germany. They're coming here to use us as a colony. Every indication so far points to this. Demanding further taxation and cuts to salaries to pay the banks when we have a huge increase in homeless people, 20% unemployment, huge rise in suicides, closing down of small businesses.
Germany wants (naturally, if unethically), to gain from all this. They are currently asking for Special Economic Zones with minimal taxation and minimal worker rights to honor us with their investments. They are asking for deals such as 'project helios' where they are given huge land tracts for free, produce energy that is sent to Germany and pay no taxes.

Yeah, I'm really excited with our new benevolent masters.

I think it's disgusting how the world treats the Greeks on this. The Greek people have every right to be as angry as they are. They got fucked by their Government being taken advantage of by internal special interests and a world banking system working to milk it with little regard for the peoples' interests, and then the people as a whole get blamed for bullshit most of them didn't do.

Like, the Greeks really should break off, abort their banking system like Iceland, and try to rebuild something dignifying.

All this negativity towards Greece isn't doing anyone any good, and it's those kinds of unhelpful attitudes that break constructive communication and lead to contempt and lack of trust. It's economically horrible to have these attitudes at play, and personally dehumanizing for Greeks.

The world should have more humility. This is a tragedy. And yet countries still let banks continue predatory practices on Greece. They are trying to dissuade it, but just fucking end it. It's mean.

 

[Sloane]

I didn't state that many Germans hate on us based on this topic, but based on various articles from Spiegel and Bild, reports from Greek media (which admittedly are not to be trusted), as well as attitudes online.

Bild is a tabloid, comparable to The Sun. It does have some influence but it shouldn't be taken seriously or considered representative of what most Germans think. Spiegel on the other hand is rather liberal, they've been both critical of Merkel and Sarkozy and of Greece, and report relatively fair and balanced -- like most of Germany's media does, in my opinion.

I think it's disgusting how the world treats the Greeks on this. The Greek people have every right to be as angry as they are. They got fucked by their Government being taken advantage of by internal special interests and a world banking system working to milk it with little regard for the peoples' interests, and then the people as a whole get blamed for bullshit most of them didn't do.

Isn't that how it always is though? Whenever a country gets in trouble, it's because of the government, not because of "the people".

 

[gate777]

Give Greece to Turkey.

Not a nice thing to say. If it wasn't for us putting up a fight against the Persians and the Turks, Europe would be entirely different today. Every country in the world owes us thanks for what we've given to humanity. Medicine, Democracy, the Alphabet, Philosophy, Poetry, the list could go on. Only China has a longer history than us.

With that said, I believe we should go back to the Drachma. The Euro hurt us much more than anticipated and is not a feasible currency when we do not have many exports.

In reality, it doesn't matter what we do; we're in for a long fight, but we will prevail as always.

I think it's disgusting how the world treats the Greeks on this. The Greek people have every right to be as angry as they are. They got fucked by their Government being taken advantage of by internal special interests and a world banking system working to milk it with little regard for the peoples' interests, and then the people as a whole get blamed for bullshit most of them didn't do.

It goes both ways. The Government fucked us and we fucked them back. How do you justify a doctor making a good amount of money, having multiple cars and multiple beach-front properties only paying 6,000 in yearly taxes??? That's been going on for decades. Shame on us for doing that to the government and shame on them for not doing anything about it.

 

[BobsRevenge]

Isn't that how it always is though? Whenever a country gets in trouble, it's because of the government, not because of "the people".

Yes, and it's wrong.

 

[poisonelf]

I'll admit it's difficult for me to stay away...

While I'm not going through old and saved articles, I just found this regarding the "only logical" demands of TROIKA from Greece:

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/06/the-greek-vise/

Krugman is a Nobel winning American economist.

How much is the troika demanding from Greece? How tight is the squeeze?

The current plan calls for Greece to move into large primary surplus — that is, surplus not counting interest payments on the debt:

That’s a huge swing — and it’s supposed to happen in the face of a deeply depressed economy. Here’s what it implies for real government spending:

Can I say that this looks basically inconceivable?

And here’s the thing: when this started, Greece was running a large primary deficit — which meant that even if it repudiated all its debt, it would still have been forced to make a major fiscal contraction. This is no longer true. So we’re now looking at a scenario in which Greece is forced into killing levels of austerity to pay its foreign creditors, with no real light at the end of the tunnel.

Let me add here that currently more than 70% of our budget goes to pay debts, interest rates and banks. If you let out the bank bailouts it's still over 50%.