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[Geometric-Crusher]

Yes the PS1 is efficient for 2D for sure but in some nervous games like shmups or 2D vs fighting the Saturn sometimes get better results.

that common players don't care.
the best 2d game on the ps1 is street fighter alpha 3
on the Sega Saturn street fighter zero 3, Sega Saturn fans can claim superiority but no one cares, the game is the same.
if 2d was Saturn's secret weapon then we can say the impact was mitigated, there wasn't enough 2d power to make the ps1 look outdated in that field. Good Job Hideki Sato.

 

[RoboFu]

No and no ?

The buttons are not colored like the snes buttons. And the snes (and n64 that came out after the PS) have 2 shoulder buttons while PS controllers have 4 since the first one.

So steal what ? No cartridge, different controller, different console design, different hardware. I've seen better rip offs.

Damn Nintendo and SEGA fans are so delisionals... I love SNES and the Saturn, the sat is an AWESOME system with dozens of crazy good games, but man, after all those years, still trying to twist the reality...

The old way to explain the situation is still the best way : PS1 is better for 3D and Saturn is better for 2D. Done.

Umm no .. the PlayStation was built after they already started developing the SNES CD ADD ON. The controller was made with four face buttons and shoulder buttons after they were using the snes controller with the cd add on they were developing. The PlayStation was a snes at one point.

It's clear some fanboys are crazy in this thread but it's not the sega and Nintendo fans.

It literally has PlayStation on the controller.

 

[cireza]

The Saturn was thought for 2D and as usual SEGA was taken by surprise like "what ? oh the new thing is 3D ? are you sure ? ok let's add a 2nd ship that can do a little 3D, I give you 3 months"...

See. This shit has been repeated so many times over the internet it has now become the truth in weak people's minds.

Ignorant people, that don't want to know better, and feel comfortable spreading the same shit over and over again.

The new thing is 3D ? No shit, SEGA were the ones to make a massive push towards proper 3D hardware, and proper engines. They were the driving force behind 3D, released Virtua Racing in 1992, then Virtua Fighter and Daytona. The Saturn was already being reported as being a 3D machine back in 1993. 3 months to add the second "ship to do little 3D" lol ? This shows you have no clue what you are talking about, and obviously don't want to know better. Spread your bullshit elsewhere.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Saturn stunk as a whole. If you were a big Sega arcade gamer and were big into 2D fighting games, you probably liked the system.

PS1 was way better. As a start, segas legacy in the prior gen was great Sega Sports games. Aside from the last baseball games, the rest all seemed to get F's in mag reviews back then. NFL, nba, nhl. If a system doesn't have good sports games, no buy from me. And their EA sports games seemed worse too.

 

[cartman414]

I'm guessing you too haven't read the article, and forget that the entire world of electronics for Sony was using that colour tone, Trinitron TVs, etc.

The SNES and PlayStation controller have completely different design paradigms. The uncomfortable kidney Snes pad is designed with an asymmetric layout and the PlayStation controller is designed with a symmetrical aesthetic to fit a hand like a glove and has distinctly different sets of shoulder buttons for game use like driving games, compared to the total after thought of the Snes' shoulder buttons. Even the symbol meanings for PlayStation to combine colour, shape and meaning into the buttons lead to the pad winning design awards.

The internal electronics of the pad is like day and night different, one looks like an old crystal radio set and the other looks like a PCB out of a ...highend Walkman of the time or a PlayStation controller, as that was the benchmark of the time.

If you said it was vaguely derivative, like all pads are except for the N64 controller, then yeah, but stealing, is just nonsense, it's worlds apart.

Oh my god. The PS controller handles are for baby hands. The claw grip they force is the opposite of ergonomic. Don't get me started on the d-pad. It took the PS4 dual shock to get it right.

Also, Playstation products had poor quality compared to most Nintendo and Sega products, so I don't know what you're smoking.

 

[cartman414]

I don't because that article is heading light on any new info on a story that the likes other print mags covered in detail decades ago. Also, the flip top lid was done out cost savings and what SONY would have seen with other CD gaming systems like with how SEGA and 3DO were able to reduce costs by going to the flip lid instead of more expensive the front loader model for the Mega CD and 3DO. You look at the basic layout of the PS1 system the pad and its colour it's straight from the SNES

In the end had NCL done their due diligence they would have never got into such a mess with the SONY deal in the 1st place over revenue per disc. Not that in anyway excused how NCL allowed SONY to humiliate themselves by going ahead with their CES speech while NCL had already done a deal with Philips behind their back.

No CD for the N64 lost the system a ton of Japanese support from the SNES era and lost it FF7. The days when Nintendo fans could boost their system by having the best Japanese RPGs were well and truly over. The N64 was dire for Japanese RPGs. All that was on NCL

Just admit you didn't read the article. It's ok.

Guess I shouldn't be surprised with the amount of * insert verified controversy * denialists I come across every day.

 

[Drell]

The new thing is 3D ? No shit, SEGA were the ones to make a massive push towards proper 3D hardware, and proper engines. They were the driving force behind 3D, released Virtua Racing in 1992, then Virtua Fighter and Daytona. The Saturn was already being reported as being a 3D machine back in 1993. 3 months to add the second "ship to do little 3D" lol ? This shows you have no clue what you are talking about, and obviously don't want to know better. Spread your bullshit elsewhere.

People keep claiming the Saturn had its 3D capabilities added "last minute" because the saturn uses quads instead of triangles, which can more easily be interpreted as distorded sprites. While the later became the norm and first "sound" weird these days, it was what Model 1, 2 and 3 used. Yes those cutting edge arcade board that no domestic system could match back then. Where these systems made for 2D? I don't think so. And I can't either believe that Sega, one of the pioneer of 3D gaming wanted the Saturn to be 2D only after investing so much in that domain in the arcades.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

See. This shit has been repeated so many times over the internet it has now become the truth in weak people's minds.

Ignorant people, that don't want to know better, and feel comfortable spreading the same shit over and over again.

The new thing is 3D ? No shit, SEGA were the ones to make a massive push towards proper 3D hardware, and proper engines. They were the driving force behind 3D, released Virtua Racing in 1992, then Virtua Fighter and Daytona. The Saturn was already being reported as being a 3D machine back in 1993. 3 months to add the second "ship to do little 3D" lol ? This shows you have no clue what you are talking about, and obviously don't want to know better. Spread your bullshit elsewhere.

Have you ever heard of Hideki Sato? He confirmed that Sega was surprised by the PlayStation hardware. Is revisionism the new goal for Sega fans?

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

People keep claiming the Saturn had its 3D capabilities added "last minute" because the saturn uses quads instead of triangles.

nah, because it's the true.

And I can't either believe that Sega, one of the pioneer of 3D gaming wanted the Saturn to be 2D only after investing so much in that domain in the arcades.

exactly, Sega wanted to keep 3d only in the arcade, they never imagined the 5th gen in full 3d before Sony.
But obviously the Saturn had some 3D potential even in its original version to make games like Bug! possible.

 

[RoboFu]

Have you ever heard of Hideki Sato? He confirmed that Sega was surprised by the PlayStation hardware. Is revisionism the new goal for Sega fans?

The Saturn was built to mimic the model 2 which had the same multi chip set up and also used quads.

the myth that they added a vdp last min doesn't make any logical sense. You can't just throw in a chip and hope it works. It takes months of planning.

 

[cireza]

Have you ever heard of Hideki Sato? He confirmed that Sega was surprised by the PlayStation hardware. Is revisionism the new goal for Sega fans?

Bro, you have been drive-by posting in this thread the exact 3 same things for 15 pages now.

SEGA had their own vision of what a mass produced, cheap enough for the consumer, 2D AND 3D hardware capable, affordable to manufacture... console had to be back then. They followed their own vision from the very beginning and delivered such product. Revisionism happens when people say stuff such as "they threw a 3D processor 3 months before launch". None of this makes any sense. We know for sure, from sources back then, that 3D was supported as soon as 1993, that both VDP2 were there from the very beginning, that both CPUs were always part of the equation and also included in the 32X. Use some common sense. You don't throw a new GPU and/or CPU like this and call it a day because the impacts are gigantic.

Guys giving interviews 30 years later to get a little bit of spotlight (and money) before they retire aren't exactly relevant to my eyes.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

The Saturn was built to mimic the model 2 which had the same multi chip set up and also used quads.

the myth that they added a vdp last min doesn't make any logical sense. You can't just throw in a chip and hope it works. It takes months of planning.

Think what you want but the console architect was crystal clear ''our system was 2d, I added the second SH2''

 

[Team Andromeda]

Just admit you didn't read the article. It's ok.

Guess I shouldn't be surprised with the amount of * insert verified controversy * denialists I come across every day.

I read it on a night shift actually and it's not saying anything new central point was the deal was put off over what SONY was looking for revenue from software. One would have thought that part of the deal would have been done and scrutinized at the start.
So don't come the denialists

Why don't you admit for once that no CD drive for the N64 was a royal cock up and the real reason why the N64 didn't have FF7.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Oh my god. The PS controller handles are for baby hands. The claw grip they force is the opposite of ergonomic. Don't get me started on the d-pad. It took the PS4 dual shock to get it right.

Also, Playstation products had poor quality compared to most Nintendo and Sega products, so I don't know what you're smoking.

Agreed, the size is only marginally bigger than the petit Snes controller without the handles, and the glove fit of the pad does rely on letting the handles rest on the little fingers and their neighbours, then the shoulder trigger bumpers rest on the set of other two fingers, and as you say, it wasn't until the PS4 dualshock size/redesign that you could grab the pad fully.

It was probably the cube pad that set the ball rolling for a pad that felt good to grip IMO.

 

[SenkiDala]

See. This shit has been repeated so many times over the internet it has now become the truth in weak people's minds.

Ignorant people, that don't want to know better, and feel comfortable spreading the same shit over and over again.

Krrr krrrr... I was there back then and I saw all of this happening... Also asked to a dude who's litteraly video game history teacher and he confirmed this. Of course I'm being hyperbolic when I say "3 months"... it's like when you say "I've been waiting for 36 years", you... don't really wait 36 actual years...

Anyway except being a condescending prick who thinks he knows more than he actually knows, who are you ? I hope you've better than your SMS indie homebrews.

But anyway sure you're right, the Saturn was architectured with first 3D in mind and not at all 2D, ok ok.

 

[lakitu1982]

Man, no man, I pitty the people who actually fall for what you are saying in this post here.

A wrapper told you because that's how a generic API wrapper works, which is not the same as render specific DLLs from TR3 they won't work in any other game at most is maybe compatible with TR2.

There's plenty of Glide exclusive games surely you just need to get a DLL from a DX9 game to get full DX9 support! The community is so stupid writing Glide wrappers for Diablo 2, they should have just copied DLLs from Doom Eternal, *bam* instant Vulkan support....

Even small things, Doom95 is customized for NV1 or DirectX 1 was built with the NV1 in mind... like hell show me where you got that info, fucking show me one source for this (and no CoPilot and ChatGPT don't count). It's hard to parse through your posts because there so many small and big things that are absolutely unfounded that it's almost impossible to form a coherent reply, you just take wild outlandish theories from unrelated concepts that the end result is a narrative that make 0 sense.

I have no idea what you're saying really but you seem to know your stuff

 

[cireza]

Anyway except being a condescending prick who thinks he knows more than he actually knows, who are you ?

I am not the guy spreading his ignorance and needing a video-game teacher. You don't need a video-game teacher when you actually lived through these periods of gaming.

But anyway sure you're right, the Saturn was architectured with first 3D in mind and not at all 2D

See, you finally admit it. And to be more precise, it was architectured for both, not only 3D.

Since I am in a good mood, I will share this video so you can learn a few things.

 

[Alexios]

The future is humans discussing in forums by copy/pasting AI answers.

Just found this gem while browsing for VR stuff as I do, AIs lie to your face, lmao.

AI just make shit up and people have been using them as source and authority figures spewing the shit it tells them for pages on here as if they understand the topic. Glad they at least said that they used it (thinking it reinforces their points, lol) but next time they'll spew their bs without revealing it.

Of course it's not just the folks posting the bs but also everyone liking/citing/siding with it like it was somehow proven true in any way beyond their own, ignorant confirmation bias & their misguided will to instinctively, adamantly agree with anything that tickles it rather than challenge it with facts.

As if anyone supposedly verifying what the AI told them (as if it can understand how any chip works, lol) would tell us what the AI said as some kind of authority on the matter rather than direct us to a real, reliable, source the AI may (probably not, lol) have referenced and therefor has a valid point.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Just found this gem while browsing for VR stuff as I do, AIs lie to your face, lmao.

AI just make shit up and people have been using them as source and authority figures spewing the shit it tells them for pages on here as if they understand the topic. Glad they at least said that they used it (thinking it reinforces their points, lol) but next time they'll spew their bs without revealing it...

Of course it's not just the folks posting the bs but also everyone liking/citing/siding with it like it was somehow proven true in any way beyond their own, ignorant confirmation bias & their misguided will to instinctively, adamantly agree with anything that tickles it rather than challenge it with facts.

As I said earlier in the thread. Garbage in, garbage out.

You can ask an AI like Copilot to use a programming text as a reference and write you specific code in a style or do calculations, but as the Aladdin asking the genie it is your responsibility to validate what it provides, and it does provide it references for the answers, so when it makes mistakes - which it always does, even inconsistent at commutative mathematics ops presumably for resource reasons so it uses prediction of most probable than facts, unless directed to an authority source, or it is making us the product to train it, or is intentionally not being a free reliable source for coursework cheats - but it is still a very useful service if used cynically, it just needs you as the pilot to remember it is a 'co'pilot, you lead it not the other way around and it's your reputation staked on the quoted answers, so the more of an authority you are on the topic to expertly guide it to facts and challenge it's responses, the more useful it will be.

A.I.s distil info amazingly well in their answers, meaning less time skim reading from google results, giving back loads of time for more and more questions about the A.I results to make sure they checkout.

/TDR
It is no simple free-lunch

 

[Ozzie666]

As much as I loved Sega, developers proved the max potential of one system, because they could extract almost every inch of power. One system is only based on theory without being proven, without good development tools, without ease of use, resources and costs out of control.

As someone said, yes the Saturn was better for 2D, especially with RAM carts. But it didn't embarass the Playstation in 2D, which was in the same ball park. 3D was a much bigger peformance gap in PS favour in most use case scenarios.

One system walked the walk, the other did not.

 

[cartman414]

I read it on a night shift actually and it's not saying anything new central point was the deal was put off over what SONY was looking for revenue from software. One would have thought that part of the deal would have been done and scrutinized at the start.
So don't come the denialists

Why don't you admit for once that no CD drive for the N64 was a royal cock up and the real reason why the N64 didn't have FF7.

The final outcome perhaps. But the exact events put things in a whole different light, like how it was Sony, NOT Nintendo, that had the idea of the CD-ROM and pressured Nintendo into signing on, and using their burgeoning media empire to provide content via the new SuperDisc media format (karaoke, movies, e-books, etc.) which was also in hopes of creating a new media format they could cash in on (see: Betamax, MiniDisc, UMD, Memory Stick, etc.), as well as a backdoor to the console business by circumventing Nintendo's royalty scheme and creating THEIR own. Meaning in other words, Nintendo never created them by betrayal. They attempted to basically assimilate them first.

And I never denied that nixing CD ROM cost them 3rd party support.

 

[cartman414]

As much as I loved Sega, developers proved the max potential of one system, because they could extract almost every inch of power. One system is only based on theory without being proven, without good development tools, without ease of use, resources and costs out of control.

As someone said, yes the Saturn was better for 2D, especially with RAM carts. But it didn't embarass the Playstation in 2D, which was in the same ball park. 3D was a much bigger peformance gap in PS favour in most use case scenarios.

One system walked the walk, the other did not.

The VDP2 made a lot of tricks possible that couldn't be done on the PSX.

 

[Panajev2001a]

See, you finally admit it. And to be more precise, it was architectured for both, not only 3D.

Half clockspeed DSP in the SCU (this screams late addition rather than the second SH-2, but I would not be surprised to see very early iterations of VDP1 not having warped sprites support beyond rotation and scaling), reusing the sprite HW for textured polygons (warped quads with full control of each vertex), and the other VDP optimised for best in class mode 7 style effects seems something that started to be best in class 2D that could also be used for 3D.

SEGA Arcade HW used quads, but I do not think it was using forward texturing to achieve that (also had its own array of GTE like T&L accelerators)… quads as primitive does not mean you have to render using distorted sprites.

 

[cireza]

2D that could also be used for 3D.

Which is the point. Hardware support, and solution, for both 2D and 3D, built back then in 1992. It is not like there were thousands of already known solutions available. This was brand new territory to explore, especially with a home console price point. When you look at what SEGA were doing in the arcades, the super scaler, the multi CPU/GPU design, Saturn was the most logic step for them to support properly 2D and 3D. Never could they have embedded the 3D hardware that was in their arcade machines.

Unless you would have expected SEGA to make a proper 2D and 3D hardware that was going to be more efficient at 3D than a 3D specialized competitor hardware ? How about having reasonable expectations for SEGA, just as we have for other manufacturers ?

This answer was not generated by Copilot.

 

[T-0800]

I just wish we saw a bunch of 2D games from Sega. Sonic, Shinobi ( the one we got doesn't count) Street of Rage etc. These games would have been timeless. Sure VF2 and Sega Rally were awesome ports but the 3D games should have been few and far between. Such a missed opportunity imo.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Which is the point. Hardware support, and solution, for both 2D and 3D, built back then in 1992. It is not like there were thousands of already known solutions available. This was brand new territory to explore, especially with a home console price point. When you look at what SEGA were doing in the arcades, the super scaler, the multi CPU/GPU design, Saturn was the most logic step for them to support properly 2D and 3D. Never could they have embedded the 3D hardware that was in their arcade machines.

Unless you would have expected SEGA to make a proper 2D and 3D hardware that was going to be more efficient at 3D than a 3D specialized competitor hardware ? How about having reasonable expectations for SEGA, just as we have for other manufacturers ?

None of their 3D arcade HW was using warped sprites as far as I know so SEGA knew how to made 3D differently (maybe they got worried about cost, the Arcade had essentially duplicated 2D and 3D HW, and their ability to use 3D optimised HW for 2D to something miles beyond what Genesis developers tried to achieve( and a design that started looking at 3D first and foremost and then tweaked to do also great 2D would have looked different than a design that started to solve the graphics people were doing in the previous generation better and during development started optimising the design more and more for 3D (the DSP in the SCU screams later addition for example).

SEGA had plenty of partnerships that did 3D great (look at the arcades), they rejected SGI, they rejected M2 from Marsushita (later on fine), and they rejected Sony themselves.

I am not arguing that a motivated Sony could have still not out engineered them money wise, but I think their design goal of the hybrid architecture starting from their 2D roots was wrong or hastily executed. They launched early which would have been a luckier bet if they took a page out of Sony's approach and started 3D first and figured out 2D as a secondary target and still launched early (it could have been less "easy" to program for than PS1 and more manual but still more forward looking for the 3D revolution while still being "good" at 2D). If they wanted to keep their approach they should have let the system cook for longer and thus giving the R&D arc more time (this is not just adding time at the end to rush some late changes but planning more time).

Saturn was a console they HAD to get right, they should have treated it as their Hail Mary like they did the Dreamcast. Hindsight and all that, but there was a lot of hubris there too. Sony was a untrusted newcomer andNintendo was late with the N64, SEGA could have pushed to dominate the market but exerted too much restraint.

They tried to rush to the market before Sony and could have let the Saturn cook for a bit longer. Launching with a better SDK and tools for third parties, hey maybe figuring out perspective correction for warped quads (I know, big ask ), maybe ditched the second SH-2 and expand the SCU DSP (take it out and make it a direct co-processor to the SH-2 at the same clockspeed, add a divider, and give it some local storage) in something more VU1 like (think PS2).

 

[Parazels]

Everyone is telling, that Sega was concerned due to the rumored 3d capabilities of PSX.

But what did Sega expect from their main competitor Nintendo? Don't forget in 1994 SNES was a console number 1 on the game market!

 

[cireza]

maybe they got worried about cost

If you already know the reason, why even spend more time in conjectures. Sure they could have delayed the console and have better hardware : this works all the time.

There was no simply no way to fight against Sony anyway.

Texture warping issues were mainly a PS problem by the way, not Saturn. Nobody cared about this on Saturn and the hardware was good enough on that regard. There were really only a few games where it was distracting, like Sega Touring Car.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Everyone is telling, that Sega was concerned due to the rumored 3d capabilities of PSX.

But what did Sega expect from their main competitor Nintendo? Don't forget in 1994 SNES was a console number 1 on the game market!

I think SEGA and Sony correctly predicted that Nintendo would try to milk the SNES as much as they could and they were quite controlling and conservative (perfect enemy of good sometimes describe Nintendo's attitude to preparing a successor). It took a while for them to find the proper partner and did not have 3D HW design teams in house or clear partners (SGI approached others first).

 

[Panajev2001a]

If you already know the reason, why even spend more time in conjectures.

Because it is part of the miscalculation that lost them that generation.

Sure they could have delayed the console and have better hardware : this works all the time.

There was no simply no way to fight against Sony anyway.

I disagree. Had SEGA exerted itself even more to design a better ecosystem around the console and the HW (spending more on it yes, but to make it more forward looking). They could still have beaten Sony or set themselves much better for the Dreamcast.
I think while Sony did a stellar job designing the entire consoles, tools and third party relations development too, they actually came closer to losing than one would have thought. SEGA was IMHO one of the stronger and better placed incumbents actually.

Texture warping issues were mainly a PS problem by the way, not Saturn. Nobody cared about this on Saturn and the hardware was good enough on that regard. There were really only a few games where it was distracting, like Sega Touring Car.

I respectfully disagree, it was a problem on that console as well, but yes more VRAM for higher color depth and higher variety textures would have been an even better use of its silicon budget. Not having UV mapping (and backwards texturing) did hurt them quite a bit… large polygons had performance issues, you could not tile and/or stretch textures across a surface (which would have implications for the artists and developers too… complications they did nt have in their Arcade boards so this created even more problems to get developers to adopt and like its architecture), etc…

As I said, there is something I like about their approach, and I would love to know how it could have been fixed and essentially nullified Sony's biggest strengths or at least reduced them / made sure they did not reach critical mass so to speak. I think SEGA could have done it and I was a 100% SEGA kid back then so I would have wanted to stay with them… back when consoles started reaching Italian shores though, PS did a better impression though. That is all.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

Everyone is telling, that Sega was concerned due to the rumored 3d capabilities of PSX.

But what did Sega expect from their main competitor Nintendo? Don't forget in 1994 SNES was a console number 1 on the game market!

A 2D console, before Virtua Fighter 2d was the 5th gen way, think of the Atari Jaguar as what every company was looking for.
One version of the story says that Sega declined to partner with Silicon Graphics, so Tom Kalinske suggested that Silicon Graphics look to Nintendo.
Even the PS1 would have first party games in 2D despite 3D being the hardware's vocation, Virtua Fighter changed everything.

 

[cireza]

I think while Sony did a stellar job designing the entire consoles, tools and third party relations development too, they actually came closer to losing than one would have thought.

I disagree. Sony took the entire planet by storm. They had a great product and tools, because they had the money to engineer those. And they bought the companies they needed, such as Psygnosis that build a ton of dev tools for the console.

And then, they were an absolute marketing juggernaut. They took total control over the discussion during that generation, with TV adds and reports in magazine that would simply totally work they way. Ridiculing 2D, having adds for games that were multiplatform but associate the games to PS anyway in the minds of people etc... They took control of all the mind-share.

They offered colossal worldwide marketing support to third parties who would only dream of this a couple years earlier. Even with a better product, SEGA would have not been able to compete on equals terms. The money simply wasn't there.

If anything, my opinion is that SEGA US are at fault for the most part. Everything they did around the Saturn was absolute shit. Launch, communication, ignoring Grandia, giving up on the support. The console was fine and could have delivered games easily for a couple more years. People tend to forget that the later releases had much improved over the 1995/1996 games. Everything was just better, you can see this in the latest SEGA Sports games for example, but not only.

But even with SEGA US offering proper support and believing in the console (to try to make for it in the next gen maybe), it would have ultimately fallen behind as Sony were at this point at the third party grocery store, getting whatever they wanted.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

Saturn was a console they HAD to get right, they should have treated it as their Hail Mary like they did the Dreamcast.

They tried to rush to the market before Sony and could have let the Saturn cook for a bit longer. Launching with a better SDK and tools for third parties, hey maybe figuring out perspective correction for warped quads (I know, big ask ), maybe ditched the second SH-2 and expand the SCU DSP (take it out and make it a direct co-processor to the SH-2 at the same clockspeed, add a divider, and give it some local storage) in something more VU1 like (think PS2).

I realize you are confused. The Dreamcast corrected some Saturn mistakes but added new mistakes.
At the market level you are wrong to suggest that Sega could wait or even withdraw the second SH-2 (which they added) these things would not be possible because everything in history is a succession of causes and effects. The cause, Sony's entry produced the effect of the second SH-2, which produced Sega's loss of market share. Entering the dispute later only makes things easier for Sony.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

I disagree. Sony took the entire planet by storm. They had a great product and tools, because they had the money to engineer those. And they bought the companies they needed, such as Psygnosis that build a ton of dev tools for the console.

And then, they were an absolute marketing juggernaut. They took total control over the discussion during that generation, with TV adds and reports in magazine that would simply totally work they way. Ridiculing 2D, having adds for games that were multiplatform but associate the games to PS anyway in the minds of people etc... They took control of all the mind-share.

They offered colossal worldwide marketing support to third parties who would only dream of this a couple years earlier. Even with a better product, SEGA would have not been able to compete on equals terms. The money simply wasn't there.

If anything, my opinion is that SEGA US are at fault for the most part. Everything they did around the Saturn was absolute shit. Launch, communication, ignoring Grandia, giving up on the support. The console was fine and could have delivered games easily for a couple more years. People tend to forget that the later releases had much improved over the 1995/1996 games. Everything was just better, you can see this in the latest SEGA Sports games for example, but not only.

But even with SEGA US offering proper support and believing in the console (to try to make for it in the next gen maybe), it would have ultimately fallen behind as Sony were at this point at the third party grocery store, getting whatever they wanted.

lol the budgets for both products were the same, even the marketing budget. In practice, Sony was more efficient in designing the hardware and marketing it. I lost the source but I remember it very well.

 

[Wolzard]

lol the budgets for both products were the same, even the marketing budget. In practice, Sony was more efficient in designing the hardware and marketing it. I lost the source but I remember it very well.

The Playstation was rejected by Sony's management, Kutaragi had to talk a lot and get some internal support. Even so, the money came from Sony Music. That's why many games used licensed soundtracks, it was a way for Sony Music to capitalize on this product.
For the Playstation, it was also a way to obtain partnerships based on Sony Music's marketing structure, as well as the production of CDs, which was used as a bargain.