Support NeoGAF

[SF Kosmo]

I think the conversation around hours of gameplay per dollar is pretty unfortunate. I do get it, if you're someone who can only afford to buy a handful of games a year, but most of us don't really fall into that category but we still act as if we've been shortchanged any time a game dares to clock in under 30 hours.

We don't really do this for any other medium, no one considers a 3.5 hour movie a better "value" than a 1.5 hour movie. Or a 30 track album compared to a 12 track album. But with gaming we act as if their principle value is simply the length of time they can silence the screams at the back of your skull.

I want there to be more room for medium length experiences. I feel like there is compared to in the past but we haven't gotten away from it yet.

 

[kirby007]

he likes the game but not the studio that made it

 

[Gambit2483]

After playing it, I feel sorry for the people who skip this because of the genre. There are so many cool and novel ideas. It is so creative. It feels like something totally new. It is a must play, anyone who doesn’t play it is skipping one of the best games made today, and will regret not playing this when it was relevant.

Yea, Unless you just hate platformers outright you should absolutely give Astro Bot a go

 

[ReyBrujo]

Easier to make this kind of game in Japan when you you can pay people half the salary compared to the rest of the world and people will work hard anyway simply because it's their passion or they are workaholics or they have a dream to live in Japan.

Isn't that the same for US as well? Game programmers aren't exactly at the top of the salary scale.

 

[ProtoByte]

I think this whole system of short-term greed has to come crashing down before we can go back to the good old days of games just being games. Now the stakes are too high. There's too much money involved. Too many layers of greed

Lmao, gaming was always about profit. Don't let the nostalgia make you think otherwise

Exactly this. Most of the industry have being blind to the Successful Nintendo model happening since a long time. I have no clue why. Stupidity, greed, incompetence?

Not being first in the post 80s crash. That's it.
Nintendo's success comes from endlessly milking the same IPs for decades at a time and selling games 10 years behind for contemporary prices while also taking just as long, leveraging Japanese wage levels.

Design-by-committee is the most assured way to kill/stifle genuine artistic creativity.

Real artists, across all industries, need to collectively reject this kind of "artistic" design.

Those real artists should never bother doing anything with someone else's money, then. No one's investing in anything for free. Unless you're a genius in more than one area of game production, some degree of design by committee is necessary.

And the truth is that the most successful games do not come out of "real artists". And that's at the feet of consumers.

 

[YCoCg]

"And we shall call this new method, ...the AA game!"

 

[Porcile]

Isn't that the same for US as well? Game programmers aren't exactly at the top of the salary scale.

Don't know much about American game dev salaries but in Japan the pay for working game dev or being an artist can be nearly the same or worse as retail work or teaching etc

 

[Gambit2483]

Those real artists should never bother doing anything with someone else's money, then. No one's investing in anything for free. Unless you're a genius in more than one area of game production, some degree of design by committee is necessary.

And the truth is that the most successful games do not come out of "real artists". And that's at the feet of consumers.

I understand it's not the exact same as it was in the 90s/early 2000s but the "Real artists" in this industry should keep looking for Studios that do NOT mandate political influences insert themselves into their art.

In other words, Non-political, Design-by-committees.

 

[semiconscious]

schreier: 'solid, entertaining, successful game is a model for the video-game industry'...

y'think?...

 

[solidus12]

What is his problem?

 

[SSfox]

Can this guy STFU? As if his opinion matter...

 

[Hrk69]

Can this guy STFU? As if his opinion matter...

He's the jesus of gaming journalism

And you better believe someone will open a thread if his journalism includes something positive about Sony.

 

[SSfox]

He's the jesus of gaming journalism

And you better believe someone will open a thread if his journalism includes something positive about Sony.

He's a nobody. his reputation was solely build on sniffing into game studios Secrets projects then leaking it.

 

[Woopah]

It's pretty obvious. Nintendo thrives with it because they work on mediocre hardware that happens to be the only one where their games can be played (legally).
Most other devs want/have to work with superior hardware, and the public's expectations about games made with better hardware are obviously very different.
The "Nintendo Model" failed spectacularly when they made a console nobody else wanted to develop for and that didn't have the added value of portability.

I don't think the public's expectations are that much different on more powerful machines.

Some of the most popular games on PS5 and Xbox are things like Minecraft, Forrnite, GTA V, Roblox etc. etc.

 

[Madserb2023]

I think Astro Bot is amazing but I have no idea why people are acting like it's a revelation. Nintendo has been doing this forever and will continue to keep doing it. The New Astro Bot feels like a Mario Galaxy 3 but that should give you a clue. It's been done before many times. I am just glad that it seems that many have started to see the light, realizing what makes a good game, and no it's not realistic graphics and bigot sandwiches. Why do you think Nintendo is popular. If Sony made a game like Zelda, I can imagine people on here thinking it's the second coming. I have been in bemusement of all my the people being amazed by it having levels with completely unique gameplay elements. Play Mario Wonder, it's just that. What makes Astro Bot unique is that someone other than Nintendo has done it.

 

[HeWhoWalks]

What is his problem?

It's not on his preferred platform.

 

[Spukc]

Y’all read his book?

I heard it’s great!

 

[SweetTooth]

I like how some shortsighted posters are implying that this is a "Nintendo model" which is not true to the slightest !!

BotW took 300 people 5 years to make.
ToK took around 800 people 6 years to make.

Now lets be realistic here, the model proposed at the OP might be suitable to smaller scale/established formula kind of games like platformers BUT It wont work at all at larger scope game, or even for some genres of games.

Now try to make Elden Ring or GTA6 with 60 people? It won't work at all.

Before setting a model industry wise, gamers need to accept:

• Stop demanding latest tech in games
• Accept the reduced scope/length
• Understand that not all games are created equally

My point is what worked for Team Asobi is not technically viable for others but its good to have similar focused project within each publisher. (Like what Sony is doing)

 

[Kotaro]

I think Astro Bot is amazing but I have no idea why people are acting like it's a revelation. Nintendo has been doing this forever and will continue to keep doing it. The New Astro Bot feels like a Mario Galaxy 3 but that should give you a clue. It's been done before many times. I am just glad that it seems that many have started to see the light, realizing what makes a good game, and no it's not realistic graphics and bigot sandwiches. Why do you think Nintendo is popular. If Sony made a game like Zelda, I can imagine people on here thinking it's the second coming. I have been in bemusement of all my the people being amazed by it having levels with completely unique gameplay elements. Play Mario Wonder, it's just that. What makes Astro Bot unique is that someone other than Nintendo has done it.

Because Sony fans just discovered gameplay.

They’re so used to rEaL LiFe gRAphICs! Now that they actually find something thats fun to play without real life graphics, they praise it like the second coming of Jesus

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

I don't think the public's expectations are that much different on more powerful machines.

Some of the most popular games on PS5 and Xbox are things like Minecraft, Forrnite, GTA V, Roblox etc. etc.

I expected someone to make this rebuttal and, no offense, it’s pretty disingenuous.

Those games a) predate the latest consoles by a long while and weren’t born on them, b) are amongst the most played, most successful games ever, and people will keep playing them on new hardware when old hardware becomes obsolete, c) being old games, they didn’t cost as much and didn’t require all that manpower out of the gate.
Except for GTA V. GTA V is the 2013 equivalent of today’s AAA, which makes it completely unfit for the point you were trying to make. Today it’s an old game, but let’s not pretend that just because of that, it’s suddenly an AA production made by a small studio.

 

[BlackTron]

I think Astro Bot is amazing but I have no idea why people are acting like it's a revelation. Nintendo has been doing this forever and will continue to keep doing it. The New Astro Bot feels like a Mario Galaxy 3 but that should give you a clue. It's been done before many times. I am just glad that it seems that many have started to see the light, realizing what makes a good game, and no it's not realistic graphics and bigot sandwiches. Why do you think Nintendo is popular. If Sony made a game like Zelda, I can imagine people on here thinking it's the second coming. I have been in bemusement of all my the people being amazed by it having levels with completely unique gameplay elements. Play Mario Wonder, it's just that. What makes Astro Bot unique is that someone other than Nintendo has done it.

I heard it borrows a lot from Mario but I kinda figured all 3D platformers are going to have a lot in common anyway. Then I watched about 10 minutes of footage and was like OK, it's insane how much was borrowed from Mario lol. Not really as a negative, but it made all the discourse seem awkward. People love to say Mario is "the same rehashed thing over and over" even though it usually has new ideas. Then Sony blatantly copies Mario and it's the best thing ever.

In before the deluge of gamers who start playing Mario with the next one and say how "similar it is" to Astro-Bot lol.

 

[SweetTooth]

Because Sony fans just discovered gameplay.

They’re so used to rEaL LiFe gRAphICs! Now that they actually find something thats fun to play without real life graphics, they praise it like the second coming of Jesus

Your post plus the post you qouted are pure definition of "radical generalization"

Gaming industry is one of the view industries that can cater to both audiences (pure gameplay fun vs cinematic storytelling) also you can do both in some cases. That doesn't make a type better than the other at all.

I will give you some great examples made by Sony especially:

Until Dawn (great game with limited gameplay mechanics) still was universally praised and loved by gamers

Returnal (tight and fantastic gameplay loop with advance graphics and audio implementation) again universally praised by critics and gamers

Uncharted/GoW/HZD (Industry leading graphics and effects that focuses deep in character story with varying degrees with gameplay elements) loved by millions critics and gamers

Astrobot (fantastic platformer with tight gameplay and charming gameplay ideas)

There is a market for all types I mentioned above and there is no best out of them (depend on taste/preferences) and guess what? Which major publisher/console maker covered these types?

 

[Physiognomonics]

What is his problem?

They are both missing the point. The secret is not AA only. Secret could be AA game targeting families with simple, fun and enjoyable gameplay. Grounded is not that at all.

 

[Woopah]

I expected someone to make this rebuttal and, no offense, it’s pretty disingenuous.

Those games a) predate the latest consoles by a long while and weren’t born on them, b) are amongst the most played, most successful games ever, and people will keep playing them on new hardware when old hardware becomes obsolete, c) being old games, they didn’t cost as much and didn’t require all that manpower out of the gate.
Except for GTA V. GTA V is the 2013 equivalent of today’s AAA, which makes it completely unfit for the point you were trying to make. Today it’s an old game, but let’s not pretend that just because of that, it’s suddenly an AA production made by a small studio.

The point is that people are still happy playing games with that level of graphics. I'm not talking about manpower or production costs, I'm talking about players expectations.

Let's take a newer example. Lego Star Wars Skywalker Saga released on PS5 and Switch. But I don't think the sales on PS5 were negatively impacted by people having super high graphic expectations for the games they play.

Likewise, I think a game
that look like Xenoblade 3 or one that looks like Fire Emblem Engage could sell well on PS5, even if they don't look as good as other PS5 games.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

We don't really do this for any other medium

We do actually. "I don't go to the movies anymore. Spending 25 dollars per ticket just to watch a 2 hour movie isn't worth it. I'll wait for it to come to streaming."

Hell, you walk into a bookstore and the majority of books are around 300 pages, not 75. It's this way, in part, because most people have a time per dollar calculator running in their head.

 

[SSfox]

Because Sony fans just discovered gameplay.

They’re so used to rEaL LiFe gRAphICs! Now that they actually find something thats fun to play without real life graphics, they praise it like the second coming of Jesus

PlayStation fans knows about gameplay more than you will ever , PlayStation launched with Tomb Raider, Metal Gear Solid, Tekken, Crash Bandicoot, Resident Evil and cie, aka games with the most innovative gameplay ever made, and that sells best by margin on Playstation still even when it became multiplatformes.


Anyway You are pathetic

 

[Spukc]

Because Sony fans just discovered gameplay.

They’re so used to rEaL LiFe gRAphICs! Now that they actually find something thats fun to play without real life graphics, they praise it like the second coming of Jesus

No offense but their are some insane fucking mechanics going around this game that make many other AAA titles look like amateur hour

 

[Sooner]

People calling this game AA have no idea what they're talking about. This game looks stunning and pushes the hardware without ever missing a frame.

 

[geary]

 

[Irobot82]

Yeah it's a great model for a shorter game packed with fun and all that. Not paying the same money for it though. Maybe $30-$40 tops.

 

[Madserb2023]

I heard it borrows a lot from Mario but I kinda figured all 3D platformers are going to have a lot in common anyway. Then I watched about 10 minutes of footage and was like OK, it's insane how much was borrowed from Mario lol. Not really as a negative, but it made all the discourse seem awkward. People love to say Mario is "the same rehashed thing over and over" even though it usually has new ideas. Then Sony blatantly copies Mario and it's the best thing ever.

In before the deluge of gamers who start playing Mario with the next one and say how "similar it is" to Astro-Bot lol.

The final secret level in Astro Bot is an almost exact copy of the ones you get at the end of a Mario game even down to the same obstacles with you having to jump over shockwave like rings. The level select is even the same as the first Mario Galaxy. This isn't a bad thing. Why not copy from the best. I just find it strange that people are acting like they have never seen this before unless this place is a bubble regarding just playing Sony games.

 

[Imaginary_Fiction]

They are a model because it was a team of talented people who's only goal was to make the game THEY WANTED TO MAKE.

They made a game with the attitude of "were making what we want and did our best, we hope you'll enjoy it" and that's it. They didn't pander to anyone, didn't try to hit diversity checklists, didn't have woke agendas or any of that. They wanted to make something and they did it.

Also, do you notice anything about the dev team?



No tattooed up bodies, no pride stuff, no blue hair, no protest slogans, not overly forced diversity or any of that stuff. Just a group of people happy to make the games they want to make.

 

[Madserb2023]

It

They are a model because it was a team of talented people who's only goal was to make the game THEY WANTED TO MAKE.

They made a game with the attitude of "were making what we want and did our best, we hope you'll enjoy it" and that's it. They didn't pander to anyone, didn't try to hit diversity checklists, didn't have woke agendas or any of that. They wanted to make something and they did it.

Also, do you notice anything about the dev team?



No tattooed up bodies, no pride stuff, no blue hair, no protest slogans, not overly forced diversity or any of that stuff. Just a group of people happy to make the games they want to make.

It's like looking at a picture of a dev team from 20 years ago. Just shows that input equals output. They actually look like they have their jobs on merit.

 

[Danjin44]

People calling this game AA have no idea what they're talking about. This game looks stunning and pushes the hardware without ever missing a frame.

AAA has NOTHING to do with actual quality of game or even polished its is……..it all about how expensive it is and how much they payed for marketing……thats it.

 

[HeWhoWalks]

Because Sony fans just discovered gameplay.

They’re so used to rEaL LiFe gRAphICs! Now that they actually find something thats fun to play without real life graphics, they praise it like the second coming of Jesus

Utter garbage.

 

[Karak]

All great games are models for the industry. Wow, who fucking knew. Some of you are so fucking hilarious for eating this shit up that I genuinely think you guys were born yesterday and never played other good games before especially Jason.

Agreed. That is really what should be the point of all this.

 

[LimanimaPT]

60 people over 3 years? Yup, that's sustainable...There are lessons to be learned here.
Now, take 2 more years and make a VR version.

 

[Roronoa Zoro]

How many Astro Bot threads do we need?

The Astro Bot threads will stop when we get the tree song performed live at the VGAs and they give it GOTY and it sells more than Mario

 

[Roronoa Zoro]

Yeah, smaller teams and lower budgets does not mean bad games. Nintendo has been doing that forever as well.

I personally love the Uber polished clean well running look of Astro bot more than some bloated blurry non stable game like outlaws.

Yup! Gives more variety than just everyone going for realistic. Insomniac used to pump out ratchet and clank games at a great rate with mostly good quality and ones like A Crack in Time looked beautiful

 

[Deerock71]

How many Astro Bot threads do we need?

 

[Roronoa Zoro]

I'm tired of people who play countless amount of games for work begging for shorter games. It's like a food critic telling people they love big mac because it's simple and to the point.

12 hours is on the limit, that's all I'll say.

I don't for work but I have a hell of a backlog. There's more than enough never ending live service or mp focused games and open world games. At the very least people can stop equating value to hours. I'll take the 12 hours I platinumed Astro in over my 52 hours in outlaws any day.

 

[iHaunter]

How many Astro Bot threads do we need?

Until moral improves you heathen.

 

[Deerock71]

Until moral improves you heathen.

Okay...I'll only take one piece of candy when I'm trick or treating. Better?

 

[[Sigma]]

The Astro Bot threads will stop when we get the tree song performed live at the VGAs and they give it GOTY and it sells more than Mario

The Papa tree song performed at the VGAs? I didn't think of this.

 

[midasmulligan]

No…it’s not. It’s cute and an homage to Sonys history, but let’s not act like it captures the immersive and complex gaming experiences that gamers expect from a $70 game. At worst, it’s an overpriced marketing piece for Sony and at best, a competent platformer (and a technically sound one at that). It’s a nice pallet cleanser, so I’ll overlook the price, but I expect far more from my full priced games in the modern day.

 

[awwr999999]

I want Sony of the PS2 era, AA titles, not afraid to try different approach to every genres, not beholding to the so called modern audiences, get rid of "Sony Checks" for Japanese devs.

The Astro Bot where you get to climb around PS2 consoles and MagicGate cards is a depressing game for anyone who's been paying attention. They may as well have added a life-sized Ken Kutaragi piñata that you beat with a comically oversized bat until AMD branded x86 chips and multiplatform PC games pour out. The game would end with all of the PlayStation legacy and collectibles being burned and Astro Bot riding into the PC-first future on the DualSense controller.

 

[awwr999999]

Some people believe in diversity, others still believe in merits and individual preferences, it's really up to the people who are involved. People are free to associate with whomever they feel compatible with

The problem is that Jason mocked that small team because they only comprise of White people. He doesn't believe in freedom of association.

That picture of Protestants, Catholics, Jews and likely something else from a bunch of different countries working together as a functional team represents progress and forcing change isn't the solution.
What American 'whites' are oblivious to is the fact that those 'white guys' working in harmony despite being made up of different ethnic backgrounds and religions is progress.
Anybody who takes a trip to Europe knows the 'whites' hate each other and don't need anything as obvious as a different skin tone to pit them against one another.
Not long ago that group of American 'whites' would've likely excluded some 'whites' based solely on their ethnic background, religion or creed.

 

[Roronoa Zoro]

The Papa tree song performed at the VGAs? I didn't think of this.

It was one of the best surprises I've seen in gaming lol I could not stop laughing when it suddenly turned into a music level

 

[EDMIX]

Your post plus the post you qouted are pure definition of "radical generalization"

I mean sure, but most of this person's post are wild generalizations and culture war type shit. I don't even expect them to counter any of your points, it would involve critical thinking.

They need the latest Youtuber with screaming thumbnail to tell them what to think first lol

PlayStation fans knows about gameplay more than you will ever , PlayStation launched with Tomb Raider, Metal Gear Solid, Tekken, Crash Bandicoot, Resident Evil and cie, aka games with the most innovative gameplay ever made


Anyway You are pathetic

This 1000x


How does someone explain many generations of moving 100 million plus units, when clearly no game Sony has ever put out did 100 mill ir something? So clearly the install base doesn't just play 1 type of game, as to why Call Of Duty, Madden, Fifa, Metal Gear Solid, Resident Evil, Assassins Creed, Tekken, Demon Souls, Final Fantasy, GT series and so many more move millions of units on those platforms.

The shock or overpraising of Astro bot from them comes across like bandwagon jumping, like moving with the heard, sheep type mindset, like everyone else is saying its good. Those of us who have been life long owners of Playstation Systems do not see this as some new idea, only someone who is jumping a bandwagon or heard in like sheep would see this as a wild change.

Its because they didn't know this before....I don't even know if they fucking actually play games lol

PS1 Crash Bandicoot, Spyro
PS2. Jak an Daxter, Ico, Ratchet and Clank, Sly , SoTC
PS3 LBP1, LBP2, Journey, Puppeteer
PS4 Knack 1, Knack 2, Astro Bot Rescue Mission, The Last Guardian

PS5......Astro Bot

Them "OMFG WOW BBQ (series of tik tok noises) this new to Sony fans cause Youtube Thumbnail say so"