Support NeoGAF

[Minsc]

It didn't warrant a suspension of any kind, but flagging comments does?

It's from Feb. 12th, it's very possible any bans were since expired, and members have returned to normal status. The fact it was closed the same day as it was started says enough for me, certainly enough to debunk your claim that advocating rape in the game is OK.

 

[PBY]

I said before, it's concern trolling. Goons on the forums have been for a long while struggling with the moderation staff for leverage within the community, and have several times expressed that the current moderators should be sacked and replaced. Their goal is to delegitimize the current forum moderation staff, and use popular issues on the forums, recently sex and gender equality, to sow doubt and indignance against the moderation staff. Before this, when there was the big Goon scare, Goons tried using that to get the mods to back them up as if they were some poor oppressed group on the forums. Of course the moderation staff didn't have any of it, so instead the Goons turned on the mods and started complaining to Lesnick, saying they should be sacked and whatnot. The "right side" of the issue doesn't matter, because the issue on the face of this isn't the reason behind this exposure.

If the mods aren't taking care of grossly sexist shit- then maybe they should be replaced?

I dunno man, seems really conspiratorial to be honest, none of which is backed up by anything. In fact, the update seems to kind of address that as a minor side issue and instead agree with Lauresh.

 

[SousedLouse]

Am I right in reading that she was banned for backseat moderation, and flagging sexist posts with messages such as "ban this retard?"

It shouldn't matter whether the person is on the right side of the issue. That doesn't give them an excuse to break the rules.

Rules take a backseat to righteous indignation, that's the golden rule of forum discussions. Stating otherwise is written off as anything from tone policing to concern trolling unless the poster really, really fucked up - then it's just an honest mistake.

 

[Cipherr]

This post makes perfect sense to me. The OP seems to shrug it away because of a couple of inaccuracies about video interviews, but thats very lazy. What is said here beyond the inaccurate video interview statement is pretty damn accurate. It also makes it very clear that they should be able to make whatever kind of community they want without being harassed for it. Primarily because no-one will likely be harmed by the forming of said community.

But at the same time there should also be no surprise that a few people somewhere in the world/internet will have something to say about it. Groups with a makeup that follow similar rulesets in the REAL WORLD also receive inquiries about those rulesets. If they really erased the posts and banned them thats ridiculous though.

Am I right in reading that she was banned for backseat moderation, and flagging sexist posts with messages such as "ban this retard?"

Well if thats true then thats a different story entirely dependant on whether or not the forum rules say you can be banned for those things. Responding to idiots with idiocy never works out well (trust me, I do it often despite knowing better).

 

[novenD]

Hm? They're saying she was banned for flagging.

I'm referring to this section specifically:

Lauresh seems to have flagged not only sexist posts (which should be warned/probated) but also anything complaining that the thread was a setup (‘you’re a Goon, you just want to fight, etc.’)

The wording implies that flagging sexist posts was acceptable, and that sexist posts are warn worthy.

Still, it's a minor digression; I still don't think she should have been banned in the first place. At worst, she might have earned a warning for some of the language in the flags, but nothing more.

 

[Acorn]

Insert concern troll with the "C" circled.

Wow@that image, I thought South Park made up the kill smurfs thing lol

 

[Odrion]

I'm referring to this section specifically:



The wording implies that flagging sexist posts was acceptable, and that sexist posts are warn worthy.

Still, it's a minor digression; I still don't think she should have been banned in the first place. At worst, she might have earned a warning for some of the language in the flags, but nothing more.

But threadshitting should be reportable.

 

[Tetsuo9]

The game is not even out and they are already blaming goons for destroying the community. They are gonna run out of excuses fast.

 

[Odrion]

I think this post in the SA thread sums it up well:

What's hilarious about the "This was a setup" comments is that, even if Lauresh wasn't sincere (and I think she was sincere about wanting a space for women), the only way it would've worked as a setup is if the forums were a toxic pile of shit.

Regardless of what view you take, the origin of this problem is that there's a massive issue on the forums with sexism, homophobia, and every other stereotype you could come up with for horrible neckbeards, and the mods are doing a poor job of addressing it.

 

[hellclerk]

If the mods aren't taking care of grossly sexist shit- then maybe they should be replaced?

I dunno man, seems really conspiratorial to be honest, none of which is backed up by anything. In fact, the update seems to kind of address that as a minor side issue and instead agree with Lauresh.

They did they do and they are. And trust me, conspiratorial bullshit is what the Goons are precisely known for. Ostensibly it's not hard to disagree with Lauresh's post, and I've got nothing against the idea, but once Goons started trolling the forums over it, the idea of the thread was out of her hands and in the hands of her organization mates, and that's where all this stems from, not the thread, the Goon response.

I said before, unless you provide actual evidence that connects all this, you're basically full of it and throwing even more bullshit on this discussion.

You've made it crystal clear that you won't accept evidence even if I went through the trouble of digging it up. I guess Lesnick's word that the Goons have a history of this isn't good enough for you.

 

[Buzzman]

It's from Feb. 12th, it's very possible any bans were since expired, and members have returned to normal status. The fact it was closed the same day as it was started says enough for me, certainly enough to debunk your claim that advocating rape in the game is OK.

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/96371/rsi-forums-moderation-list

CTRL+F Happy
no results

Also here's another fun thread, but to be fair it only got to 36 pages before being locked.

In conclusion:
Making a thread about implementing rape: gets locked.
Making a thread suggesting there should be a safe space for women: 7 day ban+thread deletion.

 

[Exploratory]

a blanket rule that says no-one is allowed to discuss the moderators actions on the forum, ever.

Always a bad sign in forums. The mods' decisions being infallible is more important than the rules being applied correctly? Never ends well

A. Moderation of NeoGAF is not by democracy. All decisions with regards to thread closure and movement, permanent and temporary bans, membership, and any other relevant issues are made by the NeoGAF administration alone and are final. That being said, constructive criticisms and suggestions are welcome, provided they are directed to NeoGAF Administration via e-mail, here. Do not dispute administrative policy or action within the forum itself.

Doesn't GAF follow the same set of rules? Officially at least unofficially I've seen people dispute administrative policy without being banned.

 

[Marcel]

They did they do and they are. And trust me, conspiratorial bullshit is what the Goons are precisely known for. Ostensibly it's not hard to disagree with Lauresh's post, and I've got nothing against the idea, but once Goons started trolling the forums over it, the idea of the thread was out of her hands and in the hands of her organization mates, and that's where all this stems from, not the thread, the Goon response.



You've made it crystal clear that you won't accept evidence even if I went through the trouble of digging it up. I guess Lesnick's word that the Goons have a history of this isn't good enough for you.

More excuses for why you can't do it. Yawn.

It sounds like people in the Star Citizen community have an axe to grind with perceived slights and immature message board rivalry rather than anything substantive.

 

[besada]

Doesn't GAF follow the same set of rules? Officially at least unofficially I've seen people dispute administrative policy without being banned.

If you'd like to discuss moderation policy, we encourage you to send a mod a PM or send an email to [email protected].

What we don't want is a discussion of moderation policy within a thread, because they derail threads.

 

[hellclerk]

More excuses for why you can't do it. Yawn.

It sounds like people in the Star Citizen community have an axe to grind with perceived slights and immature message board rivalry rather than anything substantive.

Not why I can't, why I won't.

But you are right about the RSI forums. This whole thing is rather immature and pathetic, which is why I avoid posting there in the first place. I do try to keep up with things though, and watching the Goons try (and fail) to be the big men on campus and the rest of the community hate on them for it is pretty decent entertainment. But to be clear, sexism isn't nearly the worst issue on the forums. They're actually very good about clamping down on it as soon as it gets flagged, sometimes even a little overzealous in my opinion.

 

[novenD]

But threadshitting should be reportable.

I agree, but apparently the SC mods have a different definition of threadshitting than you or I.

The only point I was trying to make was that nobody was banned for reporting sexist posts, and I'm not going to derail the thread any further discussing it.

 

[Slayven]

I just find it funny that folks are so upset that people might want a space for like minded people. I mean Stormfront has a section for women, Stormfront

 

[Exploratory]

If you'd like to discuss moderation policy, we encourage you to send a mod a PM or send an email to [email protected].

What we don't want is a discussion of moderation policy within a thread, because they derail threads.

Yeah I get that. I was just drawing a comparison since it was topical. But I'll drop it.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I just find it funny that folks are so upset that people might want a space for like minded people. I mean Stormfront has a section for women, Stormfront

DAMN

 

[Gestahl]

I just find it funny that folks are so upset that people might want a space for like minded people. I mean Stormfront has a section for women, Stormfront

Nerds are literally the worst

 

[Professor Beef]

doomed1
Everything is goons to me

 

[besada]

Yeah I get that. I was just drawing a comparison since it was topical. But I'll drop it.

No problem. I was just clarifying for everyone's benefit.

 

[Cybit]

More excuses for why you can't do it. Yawn.

It sounds like people in the Star Citizen community have an axe to grind with perceived slights and immature message board rivalry rather than anything substantive.

Alternatively, anyone who has ever played EvE Online and is fully aware of Goonswarm's history. A random search yields goonswarm scamming people

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=226160

How about the time they hacked a rival clan's private forums?
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/goonswarm-eve-online-great-war

Or vandalizing a monument (this was this last weekend or so)

http://www.polygon.com/2014/5/5/5682842/eve-onlines-iceland-monument-vandazized-goonswarm

There are tens of thousands of these threads.

While I don't know or particularly care about what's going on with RSI - you better pray the EvE players don't ever find this thread. Because they will quickly point out in gratuitous what Goonswarm / Goonwaffe has been doing for the better part of 8 years now; and it's exactly in line with what RSI also points out. Trolling, lots of it, and complicated versions of it.

 

[Captain Fish]

It's cool to see she got a response. I don't really think I agree with the bans, she might've been using harsh language in the reports but it doesn't seem like that's the reason. If people are shitting up a thread about an important topic it's expected one will get a bit angry.

 

[Marcel]

I just find it funny that folks are so upset that people might want a space for like minded people. I mean Stormfront has a section for women, Stormfront

 

[unbias]

More excuses for why you can't do it. Yawn.

It sounds like people in the Star Citizen community have an axe to grind with perceived slights and immature message board rivalry rather than anything substantive.

Regardless of how legitimate these issues are, as an old Eve player... Well, definitely NOT a fan of them, specifically because of their mannerisms. You would be hard pressed to find many people who had to deal with them in multiple mmo's exactly having nice things to say about them. They are great at stirring up shit, even if that shit should be stirred up. They are a lot like 4chan, that while they can do good things once in awhile, as a whole, I prefer to not having to deal with them. They win from this one either way, because people getting mad at having a girls club is just silly, since I see nothing stopping boys from having a boys club. The whole thing is weird.

 

[KKRT00]

Regardless of how legitimate these issues are, as an old Eve player... Well, definitely NOT a fan of them, specifically because of their mannerisms. You would be hard pressed to find many people who had to deal with them in multiple mmo's exactly having nice things to say about them. They are great at stirring up shit, even if that shit should be stirred up. They are a lot like 4chan, that while they can do good things once in awhile, as a whole, I prefer to not having to deal with them. They win from this one either way, because people getting mad at having a girls club is just silly, since I see nothing stopping boys from having a boys club. The whole thing is weird.

I agree, as a long time EVE player, Goons had the worst members in 0.0 space.
Basically they always turned local chat into twitch chat long before twitch was popular.

 

[JDSN]

"Concern trolling" sounds like a new buzzword made by the Tea Party or some shit next to "Diversity=White genocide" lol.

 

[Wazzy]

"Concern trolling" sounds like a new buzzword made by the Tea Party or some shit next to "Diversity=White genocide" lol.

Yeah it's a dumb thing to say.

 

[Captain Fish]

I thought it sounded more like game lingo. As in harassing a mining concern's assets.

 

[Messofanego]

Thanks for the second and title update, whichever mod did that

It's nice to see it's being looked into, and this might have a positive consequence after all. Thanks to the many good posters here trying to field the really weird arguments while I was gone. Feel like I learned quite a few things about the validity and history of safe zones, false equivalences, lack of empathy, and more explanations for how some people stay away from messageboards because it becomes toxic to have to respond to ad hominems every three seconds in minority communities. We've had a few in anything related to muslim stuff, which I would usually back out from while clearer people chimed in.

I feel bad for having learned about Red Pillers, though.

 

[BobbyRobby]

If it were up to me, I'd allow the women to create a group or anybody else for whatever reason. I personally don't mind segregation if it is done voluntarily, but the argument that allowing for such groups may inhibit integration holds some merit.

I just find it funny that folks are so upset that people might want a space for like minded people. I mean Stormfront has a section for women, Stormfront

A forum dedicated to discrimination. I would be surprised if they didn't allow a women's only subsection.

They may prefer the women to stick to themselves, and stay out of the men's discussions.

 

[Zephyrus]

You can't give an opinion about which side you feel is right in this subject without annoying the other.

if you speak in favor of the girl, you're a white knight.
If you speak in favor of the moderators, you're a mysogynist.

I can't give an opinion on this subject. I, like many of you here, am caucasian and male.
As such I don't belong to any minority. So my view on the subject is worthless. I didn't experience what it's like to be on the other side.

 

[Zephyrus]

If you'd like to discuss moderation policy, we encourage you to send a mod a PM or send an email to [email protected].

What we don't want is a discussion of moderation policy within a thread, because they derail threads.

just quoting this one time only and it's the only time I'll address this subject, but it's something that left me with a bad taste in my mouth.

This happened about 4 to 5 months ago and I've never spoken about it, but I've been banned twice for the very same post. It wasn't a duplicate of the original. It was the very same, months old post. First time I was banned for a few weeks. The second for two months.
The reason why i never said anything about it was because of fear of being banned yet again.

 

[Oidisco]

just quoting this one time only and it's the only time I'll address this subject, but it's something that left me with a bad taste in my mouth.

This happened about 4 to 5 months ago and I've never spoken about it, but I've been banned twice for the very same post. It wasn't a duplicate of the original. It was the very same, months old post. First time I was banned for a few weeks. The second for two months.
The reason why i never said anything about it was because of fear of being banned yet again.

You should probably PM a mod rather than bring it up in an unrelated thread.

 

[Minsc]

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/96371/rsi-forums-moderation-list

CTRL+F Happy
no results

Also here's another fun thread, but to be fair it only got to 36 pages before being locked.

In conclusion:
Making a thread about implementing rape: gets locked.
Making a thread suggesting there should be a safe space for women: 7 day ban+thread deletion.

Well, I have to applaud your research now, you've definitely swayed my impression a bit towards your stance. So I think you're perhaps more on target than I was earlier, and rescind my corrections, somewhat. Your new stance above sounds perfect, almost I guess, as she will get her ban reduced to 2 days now I think.

 

[Kinyou]

I just find it funny that folks are so upset that people might want a space for like minded people. I mean Stormfront has a section for women, Stormfront

Do they also make video interviews to make sure everyone joining the sub section is a woman?

 

[Buzzman]

Well, I have to applaud your research now, you've definitely swayed my impression a bit towards your stance. So I think you're perhaps more on target than I was earlier, and rescind my corrections, somewhat. Your new stance above sounds perfect, almost I guess, as she will get her ban reduced to 2 days now I think.

Hey, there's nothing to applaud . I was wrong and used hyperbole in my original comment for extra effect, it was just a hunch of mine that he wasn't banned for the comment. I was just lucky in finding the evidence afterwards.

 

[hellclerk]

"Concern trolling" as a term has been around for a while. It essentially means pretending to be on one side of an argument while actually supporting the other side, and presenting your arguments as "concerns" that you have with the side you claim to support.

An example of concern trolling might be if you don't care about sexism and just want people to shut up about it, and you say something like "Guys sexism is a terrible problem but I'm concerned that by talking about it we just make it worse, because it causes people to have a negative reaction and want to propagate sexism. We should never talk about sexism and that will make it go away." You're not arguing in good faith.

What's described in the OP doesn't really fit the definition of concern trolling, even if the conspiracy people are right and the person doesn't actually care about sexism. If that were the case, it wouldn't be a good-faith effort, but it wouldn't really fall under concern trolling.

Yes, I understand that much, though most of my discussion about concern trolling isn't about pro- or anti-sexism, it's the moderators. The Goons manufacture "concerns" to bring up about the mods, looking for "fair and just" moderation, when they want nothing of the sort, only moderation that benefits them. Perhaps the disconnect is that I don't see this as an issue of sexism on the RSI forums, but an issue of a player group vying for leverage over the community. It's stupid meta shit, but it's par for the course with Goons. So in short, the blog post isn't the issue being trolled, it's the concern used to troll.

 

[besada]

just quoting this one time only and it's the only time I'll address this subject, but it's something that left me with a bad taste in my mouth.

This happened about 4 to 5 months ago and I've never spoken about it, but I've been banned twice for the very same post. It wasn't a duplicate of the original. It was the very same, months old post. First time I was banned for a few weeks. The second for two months.
The reason why i never said anything about it was because of fear of being banned yet again.

As I said, you should contact a mod via PM or send an email to [email protected]. In fact, please send me a PM with the info and I'll look into it.

Edit: Ah, I see Cyan has covered that.

 

[Cybit]

Yes, I understand that much, though most of my discussion about concern trolling isn't about pro- or anti-sexism, it's the moderators. The Goons manufacture "concerns" to bring up about the mods, looking for "fair and just" moderation, when they want nothing of the sort, only moderation that benefits them. Perhaps the disconnect is that I don't see this as an issue of sexism on the RSI forums, but an issue of a player group vying for leverage over the community. It's stupid meta shit, but it's par for the course with Goons. So in short, the blog post isn't the issue being trolled, it's the concern used to troll.

As an ex-EvE Online player with no bones to pick in this fight - pretty much this. If it's a legitimate concern, then I feel bad for the poster. But Goonswarm has well earned its reputation, and if you don't believe me, go show this thread to the EvE Online players. Goonswarm doing this is actually pretty tame by their standards.

 

[TwEE-N-Toast]

It's kinda weird reading people's view on Goons as being 4chan type trolls.

While sometimes obsessive, cynical, and rejective, they're one of the more socially conscious nerd communities out there. Even the lowliest of Goons may ostracize you if you come across as MRA-y in anyway.

Remember that this is the community that got reddit to take down all their pedophile subreddits.

They didn't do that out of some sense of morality. They just wanted to fuck with another site and that was a means to an end.

Or at least that was my understanding of it.

 

[Odrion]

They didn't do that out of some sense of morality. They just wanted to fuck with another site and that was a means to an end.

Or at least that was my understanding of it.

You misunderstood.

 

[chrominance]

Just read the RSI response. Good call on their part. They were very careful to separate the moderation issues (is this a bunch of Goons trolling us? is Lauresh part of the Goon trolling? is Lauresh abusing the flagging function?) from the more general issue of whether a women's gamers club is permissible (absolutely yes it is, from RSI's perspective).

There's still a weird procedural issue in that Ben Lesnick says organizations are a great place to facilitate this sort of thing but Lauresh said that's not what she wants because she's already part of an organization. But whatever, I'm sure that can be figured out. If you can be in more than one organization I don't see why it would be an issue to make it an organization.

 

[APF]

Goonswarm doing this is actually pretty tame by their standards.

Maybe, just maybe, because this wasn't some nefarious ploy.

 

[Toxi]

So basically, you guys think SA trolls are smart enough to create a massive concern troll thread, but stupid enough to do it with an account proudly displaying Goon affiliation.

It's like it wasn't a troll thread at all and you're just bullshitting to get away from the actual issue.

 

[unbias]

Maybe, just maybe, because this wasn't some nefarious ploy.

Hard to believe

 

[Irobot82]

I'm a goon, albeit not an EVE goon. Mostly play with BF4 goons and Marvel Hero goons. Read through the controversy on the SA thread and best I can tell it wasn't a troll, they're usually pretty open about it when it is.

 

[Tigress]

The point about "Girls only club" being unfair on guys might be valid if we lived in a perfect world. But we don't. It's a small sacrifice for you to "miss out" on things happening in that "girls" club, vs the huge benefit for those women to have a place to go when the wider community gets hostile. If you spent just a day on the receiving end of this kind of stuff, you'd be like "oh shit, that's the least I can do!"

I'm glad some one said it better than I could (crashing from having a very early shift so I'm not all that coherant now. As if I'm ever coherant ).

In some thread they were talking about "check your privledge". I want to point out to people who think that them excluding people is because they dislike men or are just being prejudice to look at it from this light. Imagine you are part of a group that is a minority in the gaming world (like females). Imagine that the larger group has a lot of people who feel your group really doesn't belong in gaming or doesn't take you seriously. Anytime you try to bring up a topic that might be relevant to your group, you get shouted down by a lot of these people (you're in the minority and there is more of them than you). You never can bring up a topic cause it turns into a huge mess because of this (hell, one of the first posts here already tried to say we shouldn't discuss this cause it will become a big crapfest... and NeoGaf is most definitely one of the better places).

Sometimes you even want to bring up the fact that your group is not the majority and that it would be nice to see it acknowledged more or the problems you have being of the minority group in gaming. Oooh, that will really get shouted down (seriously, as a female this is the only gaming forum I feel mostly comfortable even discussing anything close to "sexism" or what not... and maybe Kotaku too but I've seen some really scary posts there too, but at least there are posts that give me faith in humankind as well).

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to have a group of only your group so you don't have to worry about every thread on that topic getting shouted down? Sure, there are most definitely reasonable people of the other group and it kinda sucks they get excluded cause they probably have good things to say, unfortunately by allowing them in you allow the loud obnoxious ones as well. And it would be nice to be able to discuss topics more relevant to your group. The only way to fix that is by allowing exceptions into the group.

Making it strictly girls only may have brought it to a confrontational level. What they should have done was make it a girl friendly safe place, closely moderated for trolls from the outside, and let the women make it their own space through community action and posting. If the mods couldn't support that, then that's just bad moderation and customer service. But making a rule, no men allowed, and then asking for SC to make it so, that could have become problematic. Instead of letting it blow up like this and banning her, they should have tempered the issue and made some smart suggestions, while also isolating the asshats and putting them in their place.

This is actually a great suggestion. I wonder if she would have been open to the idea if people had been willing to say, "This is not a good idea cause of this but maybe do something like this" rather than outright "oh that's a sexist idea and you're just trying to be exclusionary".

 

[L Thammy]

You know, I've heard the "more games should add rape because realism" thing in other contexts before. It always seems like such a ridiculous notion. People are more than willing to sacrifice realism when realism is icky, boring, or otherwise interferes with fun. No one playing Donkey Kong wants him to have to pick the shit out of his asshair. No one wants their game of Civilization to end in an hour because real people don't live from the stone age to the modern era. I'm pretty sure that most of the people who want rape in their video games don't really care whether it's realistic or not.