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[IbizaPocholo]

Skyrim Lead on the death of video game expansions: “after six months, the audience has moved on”

Skyrim lead designer Bruce Nesmith explains why most games no longer release huge expansions outside of Bethesda Game Studios.

www.videogamer.com

In an interview with VideoGamer, decades-long Bethesda veteran, Skyrim lead and Starfield systems designer Bruce Nesmith explained the reasoning behind the death of expansions in recent years. While some major titles do receive expansions, or DLC missions, the audience doesn’t stick around long enough to make huge post-launch support possible.

Why don’t games have expansions anymore?
Tying into a past discussion about the unsustainable nature of games development, Nesmith explained that the fast-paced nature of the market means that audiences for huge expansions are near non-existent. Outside of huge successes—such as Skyrim or Fallout—expansions just aren’t feasible for a majority of games.

“First of all, it’s a market within a market,” the Skyrim lead said. “So if your game sells, just random figures, 10 million copies, you are not going to sell 10 million DLCs. You just aren’t; you’re going to sell a subset of that. So, if your game is not some behemoth like Skyrim, the amount of sales you’re going to get from your DLC may not justify the development cost of it.”

Nesmith explained that sometimes it can be the opposite as great DLC expansions can drive sales of the base game. However, in a rapidly moving market, this is a much harder bet to land, and developers have to move extremely fast to capitalize on DLC.

“It just takes an awful lot of effort [to make an expansion],” Nesmith said. “To create the Shivering Isles, that was many, many months. And by that time, who’s playing the game? Well, in the case of Skyrim, everybody. Bethesda games, not uniquely, are in a very, very select company of games that have a long play cycle.

“There’s a lot of games out there that after six months, the audience has moved on to another game. And that company did amazingly well for those six months, they sold a ton of those games, very well received. Everyone’s happy, but they moved on to something else, whatever that something else may be.”

The expansion isn’t the focus
Nesmith explained that there’s “few games that can legitimately afford or benefit from large DLC releases”, and those who can are aren’t just working on the expansion. In the case of Bethesda, the studio is currently working on a handful of projects: Fallout 76 content, Starfield updates, The Elder Scrolls 6, and likely very early pre-production of its next title. There’s a revolving door of content only possible due to the studio’s size, and its popularity.

“[Bethesda] games have long tails, that’s still the bigger draw for [expansions],” Nesmith said. “But when Bethesda moves on to DLC, what happens is the vast majority of the programming staff starts working on the new game, because usually DLC doesn’t have a lot of programming needs.”

 

[Donald mac Ronald]

I do miss those old pc expansions.
HL opposing force was just as good as the base game.

Age of empires etc.

 

[Lorianus]

Phantom Liberty released 3 Years after Cyberpunk and had a 100k peak on steam in October 2023, 100k for an expansion 3 years later, i call bullshit on everything he says.

Just release something that people want to play and it will sell.

 

[Hawk The Slayer]

Bethesda games always have the best expansions. Tribunal, Bloodmoon, Shivering Isles, Dragonborn, Dawnguard, Far Harbor, and Nuka World etc So hopefully they'll continue to make expansion sized dlcs for Elder Scrolls VI and Fallout 5. Witcher's 3 DLCs are up there too but haven't played them.

 

[Games of Today]

What he's saying about it being a market within a market makes complete sense.

I just wish Starfield's DLC had to do more with adding content to the thousand planets that already exist. Rather than focusing on one single story expansion.

 

[Laptop1991]

Strange Todd said the complete opposite about a month or 2 back, BGS just can't get their story straight, and no one has moved on from the broken next gen update on PC for Fallout 4, cos they can't!

 

[Generic]

Phantom Liberty released 3 Years after Cyberpunk and had a 100k peak on steam in October 2023, 100k for an expansion 3 years later, i call bullshit on everything he says.

Just release something that people want to play and it will sell.

He says in the interview that expansions are justified for 'behemoth games'.

 

[Bry0]

Phantom Liberty released 3 Years after Cyberpunk and had a 100k peak on steam in October 2023, 100k for an expansion 3 years later, i call bullshit on everything he says.

Just release something that people want to play and it will sell.

I agree this is BS and there are a million other similar counter examples.

And no I don’t think you don’t need a “behemoth” game to do expansions. The CEO of Pirhana games recently said the attach rate of expansions for mechwarrior 5: mercenaries was very high, that’s why they have been releasing even when the game was 4+ years old.

Edit: decided to remove things about Starfield that aren’t really relevant.

 

[Fortress of Regrets]

They've only moved on if your game is Starfield.

If you make a great core game, and then release a Phantom Liberty level of quality expansion, then people will buy it.

Of course only 1% of current AAA(A) studios can pull off something of this quality. So instead they cry and moan and try to explain their failures.

 

[Zelduh]

I've never been a fan of DLC/expansions, by the time they come out I'm already done with the game and I'm not going back to it after that long on an old file I don't even remember how to play and starting it back up

 

[Danjin44]

I loved expansion FROM and Monolith Soft makes, so to me they are far from dead in fact I'm still waiting for Armored Core VI expansion.

 

[mayham2199]

I've never been a fan of DLC/expansions, by the time they come out I'm already done with the game and I'm not going back to it after that long on an old file I don't even remember how to play and starting it back up

Same. There are only a few exceptions to that rule and that was with the Mass Effect series. They locked one of the best missions behind DLC (creation of the reapers) so it is what it is. Sometimes I buy the ultimate edition with all the DLC and I still don't even play the DLC. Elden Ring will get me to go back to their DLC, Control got me to play it but I bought the ultimate edition so I didn't have to go back.

 

[Cakeboxer]

The games with good expanions in the last 20 years for me are Witcher 3 and Cyberpunks.

 

[Rush2112]

Meanwhile fromsoft has the old hunters, shadow of the erdtree, the ringed city, and three expansions for dark souls 2.

Bethesda sucks ass

 

[Hawk The Slayer]

Starcraft and Warcraft 3 also has masterpiece level of expansions. Brood War and Frozen Throne might be the only expansions in history that are as big as their base games.

 

[killatopak]

A self fulfiling prophecy.

There are many examples of the opposite but your market looks like that because you keep not supporting it.

 

[Magic Carpet]

I can't remember the last expansion that I bought separately. Usually I get the more expensive version that comes with an expansion later on.

 

[Crayon]

Just chop off parts from the base game and sell them later. Even babies know that.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

Well I usually just wait until all the DLC and patches are out. Which in the case of Owlcat games is up to 3 fucking years

 

[SaintALia]

So basically, why spend money and effort to make an expansion, when you can make far more money with less effort on DLC?
I'm also confused by this statement: "After six months the audience has moved on".
I mean...of course? You made the game, people bought it and you got your money and after a certain amount of time with it, they stop playing. Or is the ideal to have gamers constantly playing, and subsequently paying as well?

 

[Rockman33]

Phantom Liberty released 3 Years after Cyberpunk and had a 100k peak on steam in October 2023, 100k for an expansion 3 years later, i call bullshit on everything he says.

Just release something that people want to play and it will sell.

No doubt there’s always going to be exceptions.

Aside from elden ring and cyberpunk I can’t think of any big expansions for single player games that have garnered much attention.

I think the majority of people would rather the dev teams move on and make a sequel.

 

[March Climber]

Or is the ideal to have gamers constantly playing, and subsequently paying as well?

Considering they are part of a parent company who wants gamers to be on a subscription service for more than 6 months, yes.

 

[Gideon]

Elden ring had a expansion that had ~850k players on steamdb (90% of the all time peak) after 2 years

 

[Lunarorbit]

If you make a good enough game it'll have a long tail and new and old players of your game will play.

This mother fucker forget erdtree and phantom liberty were released in the last year?

 

[Superkewl]

I've never been a fan of DLC/expansions, by the time they come out I'm already done with the game and I'm not going back to it after that long on an old file I don't even remember how to play and starting it back up

I feel the same way, which is why I now wait a year or two to play big releases. I wait for all the DLC/patches to be released and get the "complete" editions on sale, usually.

I am currently on my first play through of Cyberpunk, and Asscreed Origins but still have not played games like witcher 3, ass creed odyssey and a few others even though I own the complete editions.

 

[LavitzSlambert]

So basically, why spend money and effort to make an expansion, when you can make far more money with less effort on DLC?
I'm also confused by this statement: "After six months the audience has moved on".
I mean...of course? You made the game, people bought it and you got your money and after a certain amount of time with it, they stop playing. Or is the ideal to have gamers constantly playing, and subsequently paying as well?

The idea is to keep working on the same thing for minimal cost, but keep receiving money from the player base. It’s in the company’s best interest to reduce cost and increase revenue.

Nesmith is right about a subset of games benefitting from expansions due to low player base. Only some games that are long to begin with or extremely well received (staying power) will benefit from them, for others it’s a lost cause.

 

[vkbest]

Phantom Liberty released 3 Years after Cyberpunk and had a 100k peak on steam in October 2023, 100k for an expansion 3 years later, i call bullshit on everything he says.

Just release something that people want to play and it will sell.

"So if your game sells, just random figures, 10 million copies, you are not going to sell 10 million DLCs. You just aren’t; you’re going to sell a subset of that. So, if your game is not some behemoth like Skyrim, the amount of sales you’re going to get from your DLC may not justify the development cost of it.”

And you call this bullshit because Phantom Liberty had good sales when Cyberpunk sold over 25 million units similar to Skyrim in its time.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Phantom Liberty released 3 Years after Cyberpunk and had a 100k peak on steam in October 2023, 100k for an expansion 3 years later, i call bullshit on everything he says.

Just release something that people want to play and it will sell.

That is 1/10th of the main game's peak though, which is part of his point.

If we just assume simple math (which may not be correct), then Phantom Liberty sold 1/10th the copies, at 1 half the price. So it's 1/20th of the revenue, adding another 5% basically. The budget has to be pretty tight for that to make sense, and while they are of course building on an existing game, people do have pretty high expectations of full blown DLCs.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

A self fulfiling prophecy.

There are many examples of the opposite but your market looks like that because you keep not supporting it.

These companies would love it if expansions worked because they're relatively cheap to make.

They don't do it because they don't work. They can't even get 70% of their paying customers to finish the first game.

 

[dorkimoe]

were forced to move on. if the next big game comes out that we love doesnt get bought and chart in the top 1 on steam the first day its a failure

 

[StereoVsn]

He says in the interview that expansions are justified for 'behemoth games'.

Isn’t Bethesda supposed to release “Behemoth” games?

They f-d up with Starfield so it’s likely their expansion won’t sell well, but that’s not because expansions don’t sell.

 

[IntentionalPun]

I think some of you are reading the thread title instead of his comments, which say nothing of the "Death of expansions."

He also no longer works for Bethesda, hasn't for three years..., so this literally has nothing to do with Starfield DLC sales lol

 

[balls of snow]

The 5 -10 hour expansion sure package it into a deluxe edition and fans will buy. I do this for all recent ac games as they give so much content for the price of a gold edition.
The normies wont touch sp dlcs unless its big like Shadow of the Erdtree and Phantom Liberty.

 

[nowhat]

This is so ironic, given how many re-releases there have been of Skyrim. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised to get one on next-gen consoles, before there actually is a next ES.

 

[Codes 208]

“For a majority of games”

Eh that part’s kind of accurate, for every one successful AAA game with longevity you're going to get dozens more of AA or indie games that don’t.

 

[Laptop1991]

I think some of you are reading the thread title instead of his comments, which say nothing of the "Death of expansions."

He also no longer works for Bethesda, hasn't for three years..., so this literally has nothing to do with Starfield DLC sales lol

Fair point, but the headline could of easily put Ex Bethesda before Skyrim lead to avoid the confusion, i thought he was still there to be honest from the headline.

 

[Chechack]

Saying this the same year Shadow of Erdtree dropped.

western gamedev need a hard reset

 

[phant0m]

were forced to move on. if the next big game comes out that we love doesnt get bought and chart in the top 1 on steam the first day its a failure

this 1000%

there's also just SO much to play now and anything GaaS requires insane time commitments to keep up with content/meta/etc

 

[killatopak]

These companies would love it if expansions worked because they're relatively cheap to make.

They don't do it because they don't work. They can't even get 70% of their paying customers to finish the first game.

The issue isn’t the expansions then. The issue is your game.

 

[Filben]

He's talking about Behemoths and people list Cyberpunk and Elden Ring to counter his point.

However, of course DLC doesn't suit most companies' efforts to generate money as easy as humanely possible. And when you can earn money just from reskinning assets of course we rather get that instead of full expansions, or no DLC at all.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

Phantom Liberty released 3 Years after Cyberpunk and had a 100k peak on steam in October 2023, 100k for an expansion 3 years later, i call bullshit on everything he says.

Just release something that people want to play and it will sell.

You are using a single game that had more than 1mln concurrent users on Steam when it launched to prove a theory.
He is saying the games that warrant expansions are not many, for vast majority it is not sustainable or optimal. Which is another way of saying - “if your game is stupidly big you can probably do an expansion”.

 

[Calico345]

Phantom Liberty released 3 Years after Cyberpunk and had a 100k peak on steam in October 2023, 100k for an expansion 3 years later, i call bullshit on everything he says.

Just release something that people want to play and it will sell.

A-fucking-men.

Bethesda was my favorite game developer, but I have long since turned against them for how tone deaf, clueless, and greedy they've become.

 

[MrPaul]

Bethesda games always have the best expansions. Tribunal, Bloodmoon, Shivering Isles, Dragonborn, Dawnguard, Far Harbor, and Nuka World etc So hopefully they'll continue to make expansion sized dlcs for Elder Scrolls VI and Fallout 5. Witcher's 3 DLCs are up there too but haven't played them.

They have had some good DLC for sure, but I will never forget that they tried to sell me horse armour. Their latest release also wasn't well received. Bethesda games sometimes have great expansions.

 

[Sharius]

what? who the hell done with skyrim after 6 months?

beside SE still release an expansion for FF14 every 3 or 4 years and don't think they will stop doing this soon

 

[kungfuian]

Personally think the No Mans Sky 'value add' model is an example of DLC done right. Long term view vs. short term profits always seems better math to me. Why charge to an increasing small subset of your customers when you can expand your audience by adding and refining to your game until it reaches critical mass.

Boobs trying to make a buck up front when it has always been about them legs...

 

[CoreyFlawless]

Phantom Liberty released 3 Years after Cyberpunk and had a 100k peak on steam in October 2023, 100k for an expansion 3 years later, i call bullshit on everything he says.

Just release something that people want to play and it will sell.

How many people bought the game tho? Pretty high number. So yeah maybe mil or more bought the dlc then. So pretty much what he say

 

[Shake Your Rump]

He’s not wrong. After I finish a game, I am long gone. Even a month is too long to wait. I really enjoyed Spider Man on PS4, but finished and sold my copy after two weeks. I’m not about to wait around for black cat or whatever.

Major DLC and expansions are also too expensive. They are usually around half the cost of the full game.

There are too many games competing for time. Whatever gets released day one is the “complete” edition in my mind. I enjoy a game to its fullest, then move on.

Phantom Liberty released 3 Years after Cyberpunk and had a 100k peak on steam in October 2023, 100k for an expansion 3 years later, i call bullshit on everything he says.

Well, it also included a massive overhaul of the game to make it more palatable. People who quit the game early, or avoided the game initially, saw it as the time to fully give it a chance.

 

[Pandawan]

Not true. Look at online of Resident Evil 4 at the day of Separate Ways release. Or at Cyberpunk's online at the month of the Phantom Liberty release. Or look at Elden Ring's DLC.

If Bloober decides to make Maria DLC the same will happen to SH2 online

Good devs can release a DLC two years after the release and still make a lot of players to return.