[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works

robotrock said:
Soo...The Clone Wars. Is it worth checking out the series? I always thought the CG and art looked kinda dumb, but I'm more than willing to look past it if it's really as great as people say it is.
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Yes, it is. I dismissed the show for the longest time. Binged it on Netflix a few months back and loved it. Season 1 is a bit rocky but the show only gets better from there.
 
BocoDragon said:
It's probably a better introduction to the series than Episode I was (ironically).

That said, I do fault both Episode I and VII for not including their own introduction to the Force and the state of the galaxy, just as Obi Wan delivered his introduction in Episode IV.

Not just for new viewers. It would be satisfying for old fans to hear a new version of this truth, in order to reinforce and remind viewers of the majesty and difficulty of this universe.
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TFA kinda tried to do it with Han and Maz but it wasn't the premium edition of Force description considering neither are at all a jedi and he even thought it was bull shit at one point.
 
Random discovery after a brief point was made in the last episode of Star Wars Oxygen: Kylo Ren has two themes. Just when I thought that blaring bronze motif only covered half of Kylo's character - the fake half - John Williams was one step ahead of me. Every time I listen to this score Williams makes a fool out of me.
 
robotrock said:
Soo...The Clone Wars. Is it worth checking out the series? I always thought the CG and art looked kinda dumb, but I'm more than willing to look past it if it's really as great as people say it is.
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It's pretty good, but it's greatly hindered by the episodes' runtime. It often felt a little rushed for me.
 
robotrock said:
Soo...The Clone Wars. Is it worth checking out the series? I always thought the CG and art looked kinda dumb, but I'm more than willing to look past it if it's really as great as people say it is.
Click to expand...

Some great episodes across the latest seasons, fewer ones in the early ones. Still overall much better portrayal of the prequel universe that in a way one wonders why the films even exists.
 
robotrock said:
Soo...The Clone Wars. Is it worth checking out the series? I always thought the CG and art looked kinda dumb, but I'm more than willing to look past it if it's really as great as people say it is.
Click to expand...

The movie is utter garbage and season one has been an almost-but-not-actually interesting chore for me, through four or five episodes. If it's good anywhere, it must be later on.
 
BocoDragon said:
It's probably a better introduction to the series than Episode I was (ironically).

That said, I do fault both Episode I and VII for not including their own introduction to the Force and the state of the galaxy, just as Obi Wan delivered his introduction in Episode IV.

Not just for new viewers. It would be satisfying for old fans to hear a new version of this truth, in order to reinforce and remind viewers of the majesty and difficulty of this universe.
Click to expand...

I assume that is what we will get from Luke in Episode VIII. I don't think we had any character suitable to explain it in TFA. I mean, there was Maz, but ideally you would have a Jedi explaining it. Actually it would have been cool if we had Snoke or Kylo delve into it a bit, considering that is where most of the force powers come from for most of the film. Would be nice to flip it around and not have the Jedi introduce it.
 
Bobby Roberts said:
Kylo has none. The difference between Vader and Kylo is that Vader believes he had no choice. He was absolutely manipulated into a situation where he (wrongly) felt like his back was against the wall, and acted accordingly, and found himself in a place where he basically is left with nothing BUT Palpatine and his Empire to sustain him moving forward. It's only when the son he never knew he had pokes his head out of the ground and has the temerity to still believe in him after his botched seduction to the dark side that he starts seriously questioning who and what he is and why he's doing it.

Kylo's had multiple chances to go back to the light whenever he wanted. Nobody forced him to go dark. He just did it. And even after he did it, it's been made apparent he could come back. He just doesn't. He's a man who has refused prior redemption even though his parents are STILL putting their hands out there for him to take. And then his father personally approaches him with yet ANOTHER chance at redemption - and he kills him for it.

They're on different arcs entirely, and at different places in those arcs at the beginning of their respective trilogies. Vader basically understands that he bought his existence with his actions, and dedicates himself to making the most of that, so the sacrifice isn't meaningless. Kylo is all about racking up meaningless sacrifices in an effort to prove to himself he's the tortured, evil, powerful man he wants to be.

Vader had his redemption because someone showed him the door that he didn't know anyone could open. Kylo's always had an open door. He just keeps slamming it shut.

No one wants to see that fucker get redemption. They want his ungrateful, stupid ass to catch the punishment he's begging to get.
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I like your angle, and I wish it were possible, but I don't see it coming from what seems to me to be a very safe production environment....

You know I would say it: the same creative environment that led to them cloning ANH and being exceedingly safe out of the gate informs me that they are giving Kylo a modified version of Vader's arc with a little more angst and a few more slight of hand tricks. He'll seem to go further than Vader, and then it will be all the more "surprising" when he shows heart in his last moments.

We'll see in 4 years I suppose.

Trike said:
I assume that is what we will get from Luke in Episode VIII. I don't think we had any character suitable to explain it in TFA. I mean, there was Maz, but ideally you would have a Jedi explaining it. Actually it would have been cool if we had Snoke or Kylo delve into it a bit, considering that is where most of the force powers come from for most of the film. Would be nice to flip it around and not have the Jedi introduce it.
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Will be very interesting to see what Luke says about the Force and the Jedi. It will probably make or break the series. I have faith in Hamill though..
 
My only big complaint was the Not Death Star and how the threat of it was handled. It's overly derivative now.

I for one really liked the direction of the saber fights. I don't like the crazy twirly acrobatics in the vein of Crouching Tiger. I liked the grit and emotion. It felt like they were fighting with conviction and weight.

I also liked the delivery of the dialog. It felt more human than the crap robotic direction of Lucas.
 
Bobby Roberts said:
Kylo has none. The difference between Vader and Kylo is that Vader believes he had no choice. He was absolutely manipulated into a situation where he (wrongly) felt like his back was against the wall, and acted accordingly, and found himself in a place where he basically is left with nothing BUT Palpatine and his Empire to sustain him moving forward. It's only when the son he never knew he had pokes his head out of the ground and has the temerity to still believe in him after his botched seduction to the dark side that he starts seriously questioning who and what he is and why he's doing it.

Kylo's had multiple chances to go back to the light whenever he wanted. Nobody forced him to go dark. He just did it. And even after he did it, it's been made apparent he could come back. He just doesn't. He's a man who has refused prior redemption even though his parents are STILL putting their hands out there for him to take. And then his father personally approaches him with yet ANOTHER chance at redemption - and he kills him for it.

They're on different arcs entirely, and at different places in those arcs at the beginning of their respective trilogies. Vader basically understands that he bought his existence with his actions, and dedicates himself to making the most of that, so the sacrifice isn't meaningless. Kylo is all about racking up meaningless sacrifices in an effort to prove to himself he's the tortured, evil, powerful man he wants to be.

Vader had his redemption because someone showed him the door that he didn't know anyone could open. Kylo's always had an open door. He just keeps slamming it shut.

No one wants to see that kind of motherfucker get redemption. They want his ungrateful, stupid ass to catch the punishment he's begging to get. And I think that's going to be the conflict for some of our main characters: What do you do when the person who still has something worth fighting for isn't interested in your better interests, and refuses to let the light in? Again - he's a combination gambling addict/school shooter here, basically. And he's already stood by and watched as five planets blew up, and that's before he murdered his father. None of which he had to do, and he knows it. He's an unstable individual who talks to the burnt helmet of his dead grandfather, whose life he willfully misunderstands.

What kind of satisfying redemption do you come up with in answer to that?
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This is a beautiful post, Bobby. I never really examined the subtleties of Vader's redemption. Adds a lot more to the character (and even his characterization in the prequels) after reading this.

And I hope Kylo embraces the dark side. To me, Kylo killing Han was the breaking point where he definitely rejects any notion of redemption.
 
I really really reeeeaally hope Kylo Ren keeps the claymore lightsaber for the next episodes...

I was reluctant when I saw it for the first time, but after watching the film... hot damn! That thing is ridiculously sexy and sounds fucking uber.

Is it exaggerating, impractical? Perhaps, sure.

But I dont care. I love it.
 
robotrock said:
Soo...The Clone Wars. Is it worth checking out the series? I always thought the CG and art looked kinda dumb, but I'm more than willing to look past it if it's really as great as people say it is.
Click to expand...
It's a good watch. There's a point in the show around the early/middle of Season 3 where it almost feels like they've decided that it wasn't just a kids show anymore and becomes something more. The first two seasons aren't the greatest but I still enjoyed watching them. The best meat of the series is from the last few seasons, which are some of the best Star Wars material out there. Avoid the movie though, eek.
 
To add to the anecdotes: my sister-in-law had never seen a SW movie before; this was her first. She did totally fine, loved the movie, interested in the OT now.
 
BocoDragon said:
I like your angle, and I wish it were possible, but I don't see it coming from what seems to me to be a very safe production environment....

You know I would say it: the same creative environment that led to them cloning ANH and being exceedingly safe out of the gate informs me that they are giving Kylo a modified version of Vader's arc with a little more angst and a few more slight of hand tricks. He'll seem to go further than Vader, and then it will be all the more "surprising" when he shows heart in his last moments.

We'll see in 4 years I suppose.


Will be very interesting to see what Luke says about the Force and the Jedi. It will probably make or break the series. I have faith in Hamill though..
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Keep in mind though, all JJ was doing was introducing the cast and setting up the next film. It goes in very vague direction, so Johnson could go anywhere he wants with it.
 
robotrock said:
Soo...The Clone Wars. Is it worth checking out the series? I always thought the CG and art looked kinda dumb, but I'm more than willing to look past it if it's really as great as people say it is.
Click to expand...
It really is. Check out the Clone Wars/Rebels appreciation thread for a list of highlight episodes.
It makes Anakin an actual, relatable character - something which the films completely whiffed at.
 
aliengmr said:
Keep in mind though, all JJ was doing was introducing the cast and setting up the next film. It goes in very vague direction, so Johnson could go anywhere he wants with it.
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The only downside with Johnson is that I don't see him going crazy with the new worlds as well. If anything, I'm expecting more metropolitan settings again next time

I'd loved to be surprised though.
 
Meowster said:
It's a good watch. There's a point in the show around the early/middle of Season 3 where it almost feels like they've decided that it wasn't just a kids show anymore and becomes something more. The first two seasons aren't the greatest but I still enjoyed watching them. The best meat of the series is from the last few seasons, which are some of the best Star Wars material out there. Avoid the movie though, eek.
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I'm surprised you and others consider s2 to be an inferior season compared to the rest... S3 and onwards are great, but to me s2 is the most consistent and overall best season of the series. Holocron Heist, Geonosis (so good), Mandalore, Zillo Beast, Cat & Mouse, Death Trap arc... Other seasons have better individual arcs, but in terms of consistency s2 can't be beat.

But for robotrock's question: yes you should definitely check out Clone Wars. S1 only has a few standout eps, but after that comes greatness.
 
Is it possible Rey and Finn were both being trained in Luke's jedi academy? Ben goes bat shit crazy and goes dark. Luke then tries to wipe the memories of the children - maybe leaves some clues to find him.

Was the force awakening more about the number of people being born back into the force power to balance their loss?
 
robotrock said:
Soo...The Clone Wars. Is it worth checking out the series? I always thought the CG and art looked kinda dumb, but I'm more than willing to look past it if it's really as great as people say it is.
Click to expand...

You gotta work through it initially, but the show really starts to come around to being real good some time during or after season 3. Ahsoka becomes my favorite Jedi and Anakin is better portrayed here than in the movies. Consequently the relationship between him and Obi Wan has a lot more meat on it than the silly expositions in the prequel films. Obi Wan himself really shines in certain episodes.

Watch it. There's no way you could enjoy it less than the prequels.

GaryD said:
Is it possible Rey and Finn were both being trained in Luke's jedi academy? Ben goes bat shit crazy and goes dark. Luke then tries to wipe the memories of the children - maybe leaves some clues to find him.

Was the force awakening more about the number of people being born back into the force power to balance their loss?
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That would be crazy cool. Luke has the power to erase or suppress memory. Maybe even suppress or make the force powers in children dormant. Thus, Rey's "awakening."
 
Re: not explaining things. Does each movie in a series need to be able to stand on it's own, or as part of a series? TFA is still a sequel to an existing series; lies the fault with the movie for being part of a series, or with the viewer trying to watch a sequel without any prior knowledge of previous movies?
 
MNC said:
Re: not explaining things. Does each movie in a series need to be able to stand on it's own, or as part of a series? TFA is still a sequel to an existing series; lies the fault with the movie for being part of a series, or with the viewer trying to watch a sequel without any prior knowledge of previous movies?
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To me it's a new trilogy, a new start in the series, so it's a given that it includes elements from the prequels (including OT) and gives us or introduces us new elements which we haven't seen before. That also means that some of them won't be explain right away in the movie, but will be picked up in one of the sequels with some explanation.
As the Star Wars movies are designed as trilogies, they can stand on its own (Ep. 1-3, 4-6, 7-9), I can't say for sure with the new trilogy but you hear and read comments about people who haven't watched Star Wars before and had no problems following the movie.
 
MNC said:
Re: not explaining things. Does each movie in a series need to be able to stand on it's own, or as part of a series? TFA is still a sequel to an existing series; lies the fault with the movie for being part of a series, or with the viewer trying to watch a sequel without any prior knowledge of previous movies?
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I'd say the way this franchise in particular is structured, the first episode of each trilogy should serve as a good starting point for the series.
 
So - question

When they first saw the map BB8 had - they said the stars weren't part of any known space (or along the lines of)

So why was it - with R2D2

They'd mapped all the space around it except for that little portion?
 
This film totally suffers by being basically useless on its own. Basically every character in this movie's most interesting episode happens before or after the scope of the film. Except Han I guess?

Ren isn't interesting until we actually see how he feels about having killed Han, and how he drove Luke into exile is obviously important and interesting.

Rey discovers this Power Of Her Destiny but that's dumb real people don't actually have Power of Destiny, real people have to wrestle with what power means to them, which is something Rey totally neglects to do.

Finn's ok I guess but he's in a coma now so who even knows where he's going. Plus I still think his total lack of remorse for killing Stormtroopers is whack.

Luke doesn't exist, Phasma doesn't exist, Leia barely exists, Snoke barely exists, Knights of Ren don't exist, Maz even acknowledges that her cool story is "for another time", Poe is charming but he doesn't have any kind of storyline at all.

The only character who's not a giant question mark is Hux. I'm totally into him sneering at Kylo and being competent. Dude is settled in to the place he wants to be.

This movie sets a bunch of stages but doesn't even really gesture at what's next for a lot of them. Hopefully this movie becomes stronger as subsequent films fill in the stories it neglected to tell.

Jam_Sandwich said:
So - question

When they first saw the map BB8 had - they said the stars weren't part of any known space (or along the lines of)

So why was it - with R2D2

They'd mapped all the space around it except for that little portion?
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Everything about the map is total nonsense. If there was another map that was a map to this map it'd label this map like so: "Here Be McGuffin".
 
btw I just saw this, star destroyer as a pc case.

6-yazi-venator-made-the-stand.jpg



https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?topic=261967.50
 
Blade30 said:
To me it's a new trilogy, a new start in the series, so it's a given that it includes elements from the prequels (including OT) and gives us or introduces us new elements which we haven't seen before. That also means that some of them won't be explain right away in the movie, but will be picked up in one of the sequels with some explanation.
As the Star Wars movies are designed as trilogies, they can stand on its own (Ep. 1-3, 4-6, 7-9), I can't say for sure with the new trilogy but you hear and read comments about people who haven't watched Star Wars before and had no problems following the movie.
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The first movie in a trilogy is essentially the first act in a movie. Just like you wouldn't expect everything to be explained or resolved by the end of act one, nor should you expect the same in the first part of trilogy
 
Bobby Roberts said:
Kylo has none. The difference between Vader and Kylo is that Vader believes he had no choice. He was absolutely manipulated into a situation where he (wrongly) felt like his back was against the wall, and acted accordingly, and found himself in a place where he basically is left with nothing BUT Palpatine and his Empire to sustain him moving forward. It's only when the son he never knew he had pokes his head out of the ground and has the temerity to still believe in him after his botched seduction to the dark side that he starts seriously questioning who and what he is and why he's doing it.

Kylo's had multiple chances to go back to the light whenever he wanted. Nobody forced him to go dark. He just did it. And even after he did it, it's been made apparent he could come back. He just doesn't. He's a man who has refused prior redemption even though his parents are STILL putting their hands out there for him to take. And then his father personally approaches him with yet ANOTHER chance at redemption - and he kills him for it.

They're on different arcs entirely, and at different places in those arcs at the beginning of their respective trilogies. Vader basically understands that he bought his existence with his actions, and dedicates himself to making the most of that, so the sacrifice isn't meaningless. Kylo is all about racking up meaningless sacrifices in an effort to prove to himself he's the tortured, evil, powerful man he wants to be.

Vader had his redemption because someone showed him the door that he didn't know anyone could open. Kylo's always had an open door. He just keeps slamming it shut.

No one wants to see that kind of motherfucker get redemption. They want his ungrateful, stupid ass to catch the punishment he's begging to get. And I think that's going to be the conflict for some of our main characters: What do you do when the person who still has something worth fighting for isn't interested in your better interests, and refuses to let the light in? Again - he's a combination gambling addict/school shooter here, basically. And he's already stood by and watched as five planets blew up, and that's before he murdered his father. None of which he had to do, and he knows it. He's an unstable individual who talks to the burnt helmet of his dead grandfather, whose life he willfully misunderstands.

What kind of satisfying redemption do you come up with in answer to that?
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Vader murdered kids, fellow Jedi, his own wife, tried to kill his own kid on multiple occasions and brought to power a galactic empire which enslaved, tortured and committed genocide for the better part of 30 years, but his redemption was 'OK I'm done, down the hole you go'.

Redemption doesn't have to be a like-for-like trade of good behaviour set off against bad behaviour. You're thinking of atonement, which is something else entirely.
 
It's Reyn Time! said:
Vader murdered kids, fellow Jedi, his own wife, tried to kill his own kid on multiple occasions and brought to power a galactic empire which enslaved, tortured and committed genocide for the better part of 30 years, but his redemption was 'OK I'm done, down the hole you go'.

Redemption doesn't have to be a like-for-like trade of good behaviour set off against bad behaviour. You're thinking of atonement, which is something else entirely.
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The movies and TFA too seem to treat the light and dark sides of person as distinct entities. Dark Vader did those thing; Anakin the Jedi prevailed in the end. Ben Solo is dead; Kylo Ren remains. Etc
 
Jam_Sandwich said:
So - question

When they first saw the map BB8 had - they said the stars weren't part of any known space (or along the lines of)

So why was it - with R2D2

They'd mapped all the space around it except for that little portion?
Click to expand...

It did not visually translate what they said for sure . The piece from BB-8 should have been enough for any intelligence agents they had to figure it out - since it include where it ended

But since it is something that was all done in post, it seemed weird to me that they didn't notice it and changed it, because they should have had, so I guess it is intentional.
 
In the original trilogy: did Han ever actually see Luke use the Force? Like, unambiguously? (Put the Death Start shot and the remote laser blocks -- which Han rolled eyes at anyway -- up to luck.)

EDIT: levitating Threepio I guess.
 
robotrock said:
Soo...The Clone Wars. Is it worth checking out the series? I always thought the CG and art looked kinda dumb, but I'm more than willing to look past it if it's really as great as people say it is.
Click to expand...
As has been posted, it only gets better with each season and the last episodes have some of the best Star Wars content I've experienced. I'd even go so far to say the content is more compelling than TFA when it comes Jedi/Sith lore.
 
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