Bam Bam Baklava
Member
As someone who dislikes stubborn ideologues of all persuasions and still believes in pragmatic policy making, I'll leave it.
The Democrats are spineless and worthless in opposing Trump & the GOP
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As someone who dislikes stubborn ideologues of all persuasions and still believes in pragmatic policy making, I'll leave it.
Yea and Harry Reid got rid of the filibuster for less than SC nomination. So now you can't block as the minority, and honestly I disagree with the filibuster in principle so I'm happy to see it go.
If Dems had 50 Senate seats during Merrick Garlands nomination, they would have gotten rid of the filibuster for Garland also, especially after they lost the election.
The point is that I'm not opposed to obstruction. Infact I think obstructing any major legislation and terrible SC nominee is the only option the dems have. But they have to do it in a way that makes sense.
For SC, if Trump nominates Scalia jr. than drag him thorough a long vetting process, point out how terrible he is, and when McConnell wants to force a vote, filibuster. He will either back down or nuke the filibuster, either way there is little to lose.
For major legislation, just follow the GOP ACA strategy. Water it down as much as you can by initially playing ball incase they can use something like reconciliation to get it through, then filibuster. I doubt McConnell will nuke that filibuster because it protects him for the large fringe GOP house that Ryan can't control.
The cabinet is not that big of a deal. Sure, primary any dem that dares vote for Sessions, otherwise it's nothing to get bent out of shape about. Obama's cabinet received bipartisan support and we don't have the votes to block anyone.
sugarhigh4242
Banned
Posted this great summary earlier in the thread, here it is again:
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/12/republican-party-obstructionism-victory-trump-214498
Bam Bam Baklava said:
My core point is that this approach is not even pragmatic. It doesn't get results by its own standards. The "12th dimensional chess" defense failed. President Trump is going to get to choose the Supreme Court Justice that should've been Obama's pick. That's not pragmatism, that's getting your ass handed to you.
As for "ideologues", I really resent the idea that we're not governed by ideologues right now. It's not moderate policy to engage in a tagteam war with Yemen alongside one of the worst fanatical theocracies on the planet. It's psychotic policy. It's not moderate to spy on the entire goddamn planet. You just accept it as normal for ideological reasons.
BTW, in the spirit of fairness (though also 'stubborn ideologue'-ness) I will say that Bernie Sanders also advocated the psychotic idea of empowering Saudi Arabia to police the middle east and africa on our behalf. I hate the idea when it comes from him too.
Elaugaufein
Member
It's also possible to be an idealogue at the center. There's nothing magical about being in the center that makes it automatically correct. The correct solution between me punching you twice and you wanting me to punch you 0 times is not me punching you once. Being devoted to being compromising and centrist can make you an idealogue if it isn't actually working. Heck for that matter the political centre isn't even an objectively defined place. Positions that are taken for granted as relatively centrist today would have been unthinkable extreme 60 years ago, and positions that are viewed as unthinkably far left would have been considered mainstream. And that's not even considering that the Republican party of today is really far right by the standards of most other 1st World Countries.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
You can be an ideologue on any point of the political spectrum. The more important word is pragmatism. If you refuse to acknowledge basic reality despite evidence proving otherwise, you are part of the problem.
For years, people have bashed NAFTA while ignoring the basic evidence that it has been a net positive for the US economy. If you hear TPP and you have a knee jerk reaction because Sanders or Trump told you it's bad, but you can't even describe what it is on the most basic level, you are the bad kind of ideologue.
If you spent 8 years screaming about Obama imposing martial law and FEDERALISM but then look the other way when Trump abuses power, you are the bad kind of ideologue.
If you think Tulsi Gabbard's trip to Syria to meet with a cold blooded killer in Assad and with people like Mufti Hassoun, while bashing Clinton for taking money from Qatar. Guess what, you're a hypocritical ideologue.
It's not that hard people, this isn't college debate class where you can contort yourself into some bullshit gray area. It's just common sense.
For years, people have bashed NAFTA while ignoring the basic evidence that it has been a net positive for the US economy. If you hear TPP and you have a knee jerk reaction because Sanders or Trump told you it's bad, but you can't even describe what it is on the most basic level, you are the bad kind of ideologue.
If you spent 8 years screaming about Obama imposing martial law and FEDERALISM but then look the other way when Trump abuses power, you are the bad kind of ideologue.
If you think Tulsi Gabbard's trip to Syria to meet with a cold blooded killer in Assad and with people like Mufti Hassoun, while bashing Clinton for taking money from Qatar. Guess what, you're a hypocritical ideologue.
It's not that hard people, this isn't college debate class where you can contort yourself into some bullshit gray area. It's just common sense.
Etrian Oddity
Member
"When they go low, we go high!"
Except your whiffing and they're cutting you down.
Fuck the Dem party, they are spineless and useless as they are. I said it befor, Trump and he Repubicans' victory has vanquished Democratic potency.
Except your whiffing and they're cutting you down.
Fuck the Dem party, they are spineless and useless as they are. I said it befor, Trump and he Repubicans' victory has vanquished Democratic potency.
IrishNinja
Member
jesus wept, pryor shouldn't be anywhere near that list
nelsonroyale
Member
The thing is...this supposed 'pragmatic reality' has turned out to be distasteful for those on both sides of the political spectrum. Coupled with that, it turns out it has been unable to cope with the scale of current global challenges. For instance, pragmatic commitments to climate change, with of course the pragmatic non binding mechanism proposed (and the non-pragmatic inclusion of Biomass Energy Carbon Capture), have virtually no chance of putting the world on course to get below 2C (the pragmatic, politically determined target), let alone 1.5C. Change throughout history hasn't necessarily come from simple pragmatism, it has often come from those willing to challenge the status quo. I think your attitude is one of the reasons why people can't even imagine anything other than we have now.
Also, by embracing pragmatism, you are also being ideological, you are implicitly asserting that lasting change can only happen through pathways... I think what you say is far too simplistic, because logically grounded pathway, can vary based on what aim you wish to achieve and what you believe is important. If problems are systematic, which they are now - and I would say the economic system fighting to include/exclude 'externalities' is one of the key ones - then there is need for significant change. If that change is opposed then a position of pragmatic addherence to current ways of doing things, with some technocratic modifications, is likely to fall short...Especially when there are time frames at play, as there is with carbon budgeting...
Unknown Soldier
Member
Enjoy being ruled by the Republicans forever, I guess? Either learn to fight or continue to surrender forever.
It's amazing how many people are still so gung ho for blanket opposition even after that mentality brought us the "nuclear option" and the perpetual green light Trump now has for his nominees.
By and large Dems should fight the fights that are worth fighting. National politics aren't the only thing that matters to house representatives and senators who are tied to the climate of their respective states. I'm not going to ask them avoid playing politics across the board if it they can do something that can keep the party from losing more seats.
By and large Dems should fight the fights that are worth fighting. National politics aren't the only thing that matters to house representatives and senators who are tied to the climate of their respective states. I'm not going to ask them avoid playing politics across the board if it they can do something that can keep the party from losing more seats.
i pretty much mirror all of these thoughts
that being said, i love watching sanders shit on all the nominees
Dude Abides
Banned
I don't see a problem with voting for Haley, Mattis, perhaps Pompeo. Those are standard appointments that any Republican would be expected to make. But one of the main critiques of Trump that (I thought) Dems were making is that he's not a normal Republican, he's a megalomaniac who is going to surround himself with cronies and incompetents. Voting for Ben fucking Carson to be HUD secretary when Dems ostensibly care about housing policy just makes absolutely no sense.
sugarhigh4242
Banned
LOL TRUE, but it still lets the Democrats off the hook as if they're good people trying to do good things. To a large extent the Democratic leadership have fully bought into the corporatist, imperialist agenda. So it's not like we should be rooting for these scrappy underdog who keep getting their asses kicked. It's not even controversial anymore that Democrats appoint Wall St execs to high level economic positions. But there's my "purity" talking again, because I don't think a bunch of criminals should make economic policy.
TurnipFritters said:
Typo? Who are you saying are the "Actual Progressives", and what is progressivism according to you?
Here's what it has been historically:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Era
TurnipFritters
Member
As long as we all agree that all the democrats and independents like Bernie Sanders need to be primaried by actual progressives.
Frosty Droid
Member
Carpe Libertatem
Member
The spineless Democrats are going to all vote against DeVos, according to Al Franken
teruterubozu
Member
Feinstein should be leading the charge. Very disappointing.
SerTapTap
Member
This kind of garbage is why I have never and will never identify as a member of the American left. These people are spineless idiots who will never do anything when it actually matters. GMO? Gotta label it! Nuclear power! Gotta kill it even though it's our most realistic path off of carbon-belching fossil fuels!
Fascist in the whitehouse? Eh. Maybe if we do what he wants it'll be fine. So a few people will die. So democracy might be destroyed. But those guys in the MAGA hats throwing rocks at black people will TOTALLY vote for me next time if I do this!
These people are useless garbage and their inability to fire up their base is a large part of how we ended up with Trump (more people didn't vote Republican, it's just that less democrat voters even fucking showed up). I don't know what their problem is. All they have to do is EXACTLY what the republicans just spent EIGHT YEARS doing to them.
Fascist in the whitehouse? Eh. Maybe if we do what he wants it'll be fine. So a few people will die. So democracy might be destroyed. But those guys in the MAGA hats throwing rocks at black people will TOTALLY vote for me next time if I do this!
These people are useless garbage and their inability to fire up their base is a large part of how we ended up with Trump (more people didn't vote Republican, it's just that less democrat voters even fucking showed up). I don't know what their problem is. All they have to do is EXACTLY what the republicans just spent EIGHT YEARS doing to them.
sugarhigh4242
Banned
The Democratic party is not The Left. The Democrats are centrist liberals. Nancy Pelosi made this utterly clear last night at a CNN townhall:
http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2017/02/01/nancy-pelosi-town-hall-capitalism-sot.cnn
The Left has been beaten down since the mid-70s as the neoliberals took over amidst the decline of the Soviet Union. We have to build it back up! Join a socialist organization!
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