bitbydeath
Member
He hasn’t though. Sam and Bucky have been complete dicks to him. John even freed Bucky from jail and there wasn’t even a thank you.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Okay now you are just messing with me. Or are you telling me that you genuinely believe in your heart of hearts that Walker freed barns from jail out of the goodness of his heart lol
The only reason he freed Bucky from jail was so that he could try to use it as leverage to get Sam and Bucky to work underneath him. Which they obviously were not going to do and then the moment that they made it clear that they weren't going to do that is when he told them to stay out of his way like the petulant child that he is when he doesn't get his way.
You seem to have this obsession for trying to paint John Walker as this sympathetic figure when the entire point of the character is for him to not be liked. He isn't supposed to be a good Captain America. He isn't supposed to be able to carry the shield well. He is supposed to be portrayed as a bit of an egomaniac with small man syndrome. They have shown us this every step of the way and his behavior after getting his ass kicked by the warriors from wakanda was the final cherry on top. He is used to being the best and he is used to getting his way and now that he is not the best and he does not getting his way he is completely falling apart at the seams.
And then as if all of that wasn't a clear indication of how crappy of a person he is he retrieves the serum without telling anyone that he has it and then takes it behind everyone else's back and it turns him into the exact kind of person that Erskine warned Steve Rogers about when he talks about how the serum amplifies everything that is good about a person as well as everything that is bad. "Good becomes great and bad becomes worse". The serum has now taken all of the anger and insecurities that John Walker had before and dialed them up to 15. That's what the murder in the Town square in front of everyone was supposed to show us. That he had lost complete control.
Last edited:
bitbydeath
Member
It not being the only reason doesn’t take away from the nice-ity of his actions. What did Sam and Bucky do that was so great?
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
It does take away from it because there was nothing nice about his actions. He didn't free Bucky to do a good thing. He only freed Bucky to further his own agenda and then when Bucky decided that he wasn't going to play along Walker threw him off to the side like he was nothing.
Which highlights exactly what I'm talking about. Walker has some kind of ego-driven complex that he is the big man and that he is the one that needs to be in charge. Completely forgetting that Sam and Bucky both have far more experience than him and are just plain better than him in every way. If he could have just set his own shit aside for a second and worked underneath Bucky and Sam instead of trying to force them to work underneath him then maybe things would have been different.
Walker seems to be under the delusion that him being "Captain America" means that he is the guy. That everyone is going to follow him. But that's not how it works. Cap wasn't the leader of the Avengers because he was Captain America. It was because everyone trusted him and respected him. That isn't something that can be demanded by donning a blue suit like Walker seems to think. It's earned. And Walker is unwilling to even try. It's his way or not at all.
THAT is why everyone shits on him. That is why everyone cannot stand him. He doesn't respect the shield or what it stands for. Sam and Bucky do. That's why everyone is on their side. That's why they are the protagonists and Walker isn't.
Last edited:
bitbydeath
Member
His agenda being to work together and catch the bad guys, that agenda?
Walker isn’t unwilling to try, he’s the one that IS trying, he’s reached out multiple times and he’s the one going about it both legally and morally right.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
Walker wanted to have Bucky and Sam work UNDER him. When he called them Steve's wingmen, that was saying they were under Steve. Steve saw them as equals and treated them as such.
Walker tried to do the right thing, yes, but he didn't earn the respect of Sam or Bucky. Sam even almost agreed to work with him, soldier to solder... Until the "wingmen" line... Walker didn't see them as equals... He saw them as beneath him because HE is the new cap.
Sam and Bucky both didn't like him initially because he took on the mantle of Cap under the government.... Not because he was the right man for the job... But because of 3 things:
Steve gave Sam the shield as he rightly believes Sam is worthy of the mantle. Sam thought he wasn't and so gave it to the Smithsonian...
The government chose their flying monkey after promising that Sam did the right thing by giving it to the Smithsonian...
The interview on Good morning america... Walker was haughty and thought impressively highly of himself. Steve was humble even after getting the serum and becoming a war hero. The opposite of Walker.
ETA: Sam was suffering Imposter Syndrome. He felt the shield and Steve are inseparable... That only Steve was worthy. Sam is humble... Like Steve. He knew Steve as the best man he's ever known after his father (I'm guessing based on everything we've seen so far since Winter Soldier to FATWS) ... It's hard to see yourself as others see you, especially those you think highly of.
Last edited:
bitbydeath
Member
John showed regret after using those choice of words which meant he didn’t mean it how you just interpreted it. Obviously he just meant that since Steve worked with him previously he trusted them to work with him too.
Sam should have taken the role of Cap when it was handed to him but he didn’t. John isn’t to blame for accepting the role, it’s a huge life achievement many would want.
Filth
Member
Whats crazy to me about this argument is that nobody thinks Steve Rogers Captain America didnt kill people? guy was in world war two. They caused innocents to die while fighting crossbones. Sure they all felt bad but it still happened. John Walker has ptsd...cocky attitude and by taking the serum increased all of that. His intentions for taking the serum were good in nature the outcome was not. At the end of the day disney wants sam and bucky in the middle and the audience to choose sides. You all fell into the trap.
sol_bad
Member
Its not about "what Disney want", they aren't in control, Feige and the creatives are in control. The simple fact is that John Walker was never ever going to be set up as a hero in the MCU. He is small time in the comics and there is nothing that amazing about him to warrant a movie or series.
Last edited:
Filth
Member
no one ever said he was going to get his own movie or series. If you think they are going to kill him off or never use him again you are crazy. He will probably be made into a villian and be apart of the dark avengers. And whoever pays Feige is in control. Even though what he says may never be questioned someone still green lights and sends checks.
Hotty Botty
Member
This show is great. End of discussion.
Kraz
Member
Walker should have shouted Karli's name while staring into the camera then kicked the face off that terrorist he killed. Only a few moments before the terrorist was holding Walker so Karli could stab him up. The guy pointed Walker towards her. Hoskins gave his life to save Walker from the situation the dead guy contributed to. "it wasn't me" It actually was.
It'll be so sweet if Cap beats the shit out of both Bucky and Sam.
It'll be so sweet if Cap beats the shit out of both Bucky and Sam.
OmegaSupreme
advanced basic bitch
bitbydeath
Member
Hints at a Steve Rogers appearance?
The next episode is supposed to have a huge cameo whom I’ve always suspected as being Steve.
The next episode is supposed to have a huge cameo whom I’ve always suspected as being Steve.
sol_bad
Member
I'll add to that previous argument, people saying that Sam never should have talked to Karli and that Walker should have been in charge and the first to enter.
What happened when Walker barged in late is what would have happened if he barged in earlier. Except he would have barged in when the funeral was going and there would have been more innocent people who could have been potentially hurt. He had no plan when he barged in late and he had no plan if he had barged in earlier.
Outcome would have been the same or worse.
What happened when Walker barged in late is what would have happened if he barged in earlier. Except he would have barged in when the funeral was going and there would have been more innocent people who could have been potentially hurt. He had no plan when he barged in late and he had no plan if he had barged in earlier.
Outcome would have been the same or worse.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
Why do you have such a hard on for the bad guy in this story? It's like you want the government picked guy SO badly to be the star of the show. LoL
DoubleJTripleDistilled
Member
Bad guys making more sense than the good guys nowadays, just look at Red Skull.
bitbydeath
Member
Since when is John the bad guy?
sol_bad
Member
He is a bad guy in the comics for a while so it makes sense to set him up as a bad guy right now. He killed a defenceless guy laying on the ground, that's a pretty villainous thing to do.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
He has been one of the antagonists of the series since literally the moment he showed up.
bitbydeath
Member
Avengers kill people all the time, Sam killed a bunch of people in the very first episode.
Maybe he’ll become a bad guy later on but right now I’d argue against it.
bitbydeath
Member
No, he’s been the good guy so far.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
How many times has Sam beat an unarmed man to death in broad daylight in front of a crowd of people which also included children?
Last edited:
bitbydeath
Member
So murder is fine as long as people don’t see?
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
You are calling what Sam did in the first scene of the series murder?
You are cracking me up man lol
bitbydeath
Member
I aim to please.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
Walker bashed someone's head in (I think it was the head... Might have been his chest or he decapitated him)...
Sam had not done that in the MCU... None of the Avengers have!
Walker acted in a moment of pure rage. Not defense or anything like that.
Sam is as close to being like Steve as you're gonna get .. Walker has none of their humility or experience.
bitbydeath
Member
The hulk also attacks with rage, why should John be the only one treated as a bad guy?
Kraz
Member
lol. He's the bad guy? There is a lens created by the way the story is told to make him look bad. Zemo and Karli seem more the worse people. Even Sharon is more of a criminal.
sol_bad
Member
Hulk does attack with rage but how many defenceless people has he pummeled to death? Banner has pretty good control over him by the time of Age of Ultron, re he only transforms when he wants to. In Avengers 1 and Age of Ultron you only see him attacking Chitauri aliens or Ultron drones, in Avengers 1 you see him actively trying to get the Chitauri aliens away from civilians.
Morales are very grey in this show, there is no clear black and white. Sam and Bucky have not done anything illegal though and are 100% the heroes of the show.
*Sam was doing a military contract at the start of the show and yes he killed people. It's what soldiers do when on missions if they have to. His objective was to rescue the hostage and he had to kill people to do so. He was still on mission in episode 2 with the truck fight and he still is on mission by episode 3. Once it was found out that Sam helped break out Zemo out of jail the military probably cancelled his contract then.
*Bucky hasn't killed anyone as far as I remember, he has severely hurt and knocked out a few people though. He doesn't have a military contract but he was sure allowed on the military based to talk to Sam and he was allowed to board the plane. His psychiatrist also OK'd him for active duty in episode 2.
*Walker started off good and had good intentions but he was suffering from PTSD and never should have been given the mantle of Captain America. The American government fucked up by doing so and if the super soldier serum works like the old serums it's going to strengthen his current personality traits. He is going to be even more unhinged and liable to hurt people with his "not good enough" syndrome. People are talking about him like he is a good boy just because he works for the government but do you really think the government would want him to take the serum?
*Zemo, definitely a bad guy but without him they would not have caught up to Karli. Walker sure as hell doesn't know how to track her down because he is just following Sam and Bucky's movements. Zemo will theoretically go back to jail with an extended sentence for killing Nagel.
*Sharon is very grey, she stole Cap's and Sam's gear back in Civil War and has been on the run since. She had to do what she could to survive and ended up in Madripoor. She killed a bunch of guys in episode 3 to cover Sam and Bucky but this is equal to bad guys killing bad guys. *shrug*
*Karli is the villain of the show and she deserves to be in prison. Sam most likely wanted to talk her down, disarm her mental defences and try and bring her in peacefully, but Walker fucked that up.
Last edited:
bitbydeath
Member
bitbydeath
Member
There’s an after credits scene as well.
This episode seemed to be all about build-up to the next episode. Can’t wait for it.
This episode seemed to be all about build-up to the next episode. Can’t wait for it.
Hotty Botty
Member
My goodness what an episode. Other than the one action sequence at the beginning, the whole episode was dialogue and I loved it. Tons of character building in this episode.
And now we wait for the neogaf members that get super triggered by any sort of racial context and “woke this” and “SJW that”.
And now we wait for the neogaf members that get super triggered by any sort of racial context and “woke this” and “SJW that”.
ManaByte
Gold Member
Variety says they were slated to debut in Black Widow, but because of the COVID delay people saw them in Falcon first. Probably would've been a bigger deal if people saw Black Widow first.
And LOL @ Slashfilm claiming they're not slated to appear in any movie. Just like there's no Nick Fury series, right?
Last edited:
GaijinZero
Member
I can't on earth find what the cameo was supposed to be in this episode? Long time comic book reader but I am lost. Great series tho! Was it JLD?
ManaByte
Gold Member
Basically Madam Hydra acting as a reverse Nick Fury and assembling the Thunderbolts. This would've been her second appearance after Black Widow had COVID not happened.
GaijinZero
Member
Oh shiznit, that JLD was Madame Hydra?! How dense was I, that completely flew past me. Cheers, dude!
SkylineRKR
Member
Great show so far and I like where this is going,
JLD was a nice cameo as well, didn't expect to see her pop up on MCU but I guess the whole world will eventually feature.
Wyatt was good, I don't think I enjoyed anything of him so far but in this last episode he was really killing it. Fun fact, the guy lived here in town for a year. He played for our local ice hockey team and also met his former wife. Kinda followed him since but didn't really thought he was a good actor until his role as Walker.
So we can safely assume the Power Broker is none other than Sharon Carter, which is nice. But also raises questions, she probably felt she was cast aside. Like Fake Cap right now.
JLD was a nice cameo as well, didn't expect to see her pop up on MCU but I guess the whole world will eventually feature.
Wyatt was good, I don't think I enjoyed anything of him so far but in this last episode he was really killing it. Fun fact, the guy lived here in town for a year. He played for our local ice hockey team and also met his former wife. Kinda followed him since but didn't really thought he was a good actor until his role as Walker.
Spaceman292
Banned
Okay mister edgy. Seems like your profile picture should be shadow the hedgehog.
BaneIsPain
Member
It is a decent episode as usual imo. Last week remains the best for me.
Thirty7ven
Banned
At the end of the day, regardless of everything else, I still can’t get how over how corny and cheesy it is to have Falcon become Captain America. There’s no way out of it, give him the serum? Trash. Give him wakandian juice? Even lamer. A suit that makes him super powered? Please stop.
Brother is doing flips and shit and it’s like.... no.
Brother is doing flips and shit and it’s like.... no.
Last edited:
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
This episode was the SHIZNEY! I'm still processing it
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
Well she's DEFINITELY not recruiting Zemo... He HATES Hydra.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
Waaaaaaaiiiiiiit!
Steve's mom was named Sarah. Sam's sister is named Sarah.
Umm... Hmm...
Steve's mom was named Sarah. Sam's sister is named Sarah.
Umm... Hmm...
sol_bad
Member
Man, her name was so familiar but couldn't figure out who she was so I looked up Wuki.
Valentina Allegra de Fontaine - Wikipedia
She first appeared in the Stange Tales and Agents of SHIELD comics in the 60s which I recently read. White Fury was banging her.
Amazingly great episode by the way.
ManaByte
Gold Member
Man, her name was so familiar but couldn't figure out who she was so I looked up Wuki.
Valentina Allegra de Fontaine - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org
She first appeared in the Stange Tales and Agents of SHIELD comics in the 60s which I recently read. White Fury was banging her.
Amazingly great episode by the way.
Been saying for months that Black Widow was meant to come before this show because it introduces things that continue in the series. And there you have it.