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[MiguelItUp]

Ah yes, strile, lmao.

If you don't like the job, leave

I mean, to some degree you're not wrong. But it's not really that easy for people that need a job and may be limited or are having issues getting a different job. Games QA is almost always underpaid, undervalued, and underappreciated. This is coming from someone that has been in QA in various studios, and has experienced quite a bit of it. That being said, if you just start in QA and don't like how certain things are done and think they should go how YOU want them to, you should probably leave the game industry, lmao. I mean, seek QA in different industries and not in games. There's certainly a harsh reality where you may love something, but working in it just may not be for you.

I say that because there are a lot of standard practices in games, especially in QA, especially in larger studios. You're typically paid the least of all the departments, and you will almost always crunch whether you like it or not. I use italics because there are very likely some studios out there trying to pay QA a bit more, and are trying to stop the whole crunch thing. But I honestly believe that number is most certainly a minority.

There was a point in my life where I was working as a QA Lead. Eventually I was let go and hired as QA for a company outside of games and was making double what I made as a QA Lead, lmao. In fact, the whole QA team went on to basically make quite a bit more just going to different industries, lol.

 

[ReBurn]

The best way to stop your company from outsourcing your job is to refuse to come to work.

 

[Embearded]

If you don't like the job, leave

imagine if that was the mentality back in 1886.

 

[Little Mac]

QA/Bug testers … at Bethesda?! Nice try. I’m not falling for this April Fools bullshit.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

If you don't like the job, leave

Truly US take. Embarrassed millionaire much?

 

[Kacho]

The best way to stop your company from outsourcing your job is to refuse to come to work.

 

[Kenysu]

 

[Digital-Aftertaste]

[

OP fix the Strile titke

 

[Pasta la Vista]

When I was in QA with ATVI back in the early 2000s, we were not actually hired by the company, but a contractor staffing agency called Volt.
Is this common now with QA? Some people would eventually get hired on but QA was always looked at as sort of a way to get your foot in the door and is pretty much the lowest rung of the ladder. I can't imagine they have much leverage since the skill set required is like entry level. Personally I never thought of QA in (video games) as like an actual career.

 

[ReBurn]

When I was in QA with ATVI back in the early 2000s, we were not actually hired by the company, but a contractor staffing agency called Volt.
Is this common now with QA? Some people would eventually get hired on but QA was always looked at as sort of a way to get your foot in the door and is pretty much the lowest rung of the ladder. I can't imagine they have much leverage since the skill set required is like entry level. Personally I never thought of QA in (video games) as like an actual career.

My first job offer out of college was for QA at a software company but I turned it down because I really wanted to be a programmer. Thankfully I found a job as a C and COBOL developer and didn't have to start in QA.

 

[Mikado]

Being a bug tester for Bethesda sounds nightmarish even under the best of circumstances

 

[Badlucktroll]

now i just see microsoft as too bag to fail and coming in and fuckin shit up. they had their hayday

 

[EDMIX]

Being a bug tester for Bethesda sounds nightmarish even under the best of circumstances

nah, that sounds like they have a job for life imho lol

 

[cash_longfellow]

Feels like they’ve been on strike for the last 10 years judging by their games

 

[Blank Space Invader]

Bethesda And ZeniMax Union Votes To Authorize A Strike

Consisting of more than 300 quality-assurance workers across Bethesda and ZeniMax Studios, ZeniMax Workers United is one of Microsoft's largest unions.

www.gamespot.com

"After two years of contract negotiations with parent company Microsoft, ZeniMax Workers United members have voted in overwhelming favor to authorize a strike. The union announced the news earlier today via a press release shared by Communications Workers of America, writing, "We’re not afraid to use our union power to ensure that we can keep making great games. All of us want to be working. We hope that Microsoft will allow us to do so with dignity and fairness to all by securing a first contract with our union.”

First reported by The Verge, the news comes after more than two years of contract negotiations between ZeniMax Workers United and Microsoft. Since the union's formation back in 2023, members have been actively pushing Microsoft for better wages, workplace improvements, and to address "key concerns, including a lack of remote work options and the company’s replacement of in-house quality-assurance work with outsourced labor without notifying the union." Last November, members of the union walked off the job in a one-day strike, to "call out the company for lack of progress at the bargaining table." Though the most recent vote does not mean union workers have officially gone on strike, it gives the organization permission to call for one, should contract negotiations further break down.

"Despite being one of the world's largest corporations, we've had to continuously fight for what should be bare minimum. Paying your employees a livable wage as a multi-trillion dollar company is the least they could be doing; however when addressed at the bargaining table, Microsoft acts as though we're asking for too much," ZeniMax Workers United member and associate QA tester Aubrey Litchfield wrote in the press release. "Our in-house contractors have been working on minimal wages with no benefits, including no paid sick time. Workers are choosing not to start families because of the uncertainty of finances. We've released multiple titles while working fully remote. When will enough be enough?"

Consisting of more than 300 quality-assurance workers across Bethesda and ZeniMax studios, ZeniMax Workers United is one of Microsoft's largest unions. Its members are known for their work across several prominent Microsoft series, including The Elder Scrolls, Fallout, and Doom. With Doom: The Dark Ages scheduled to release in just over a month, a strike could have significant consequences for Microsoft.

Meanwhile, SAG-AFTRA members who work in the video games industry continue to strike following growing concerns about AI. As of right now, it's still not clear when the strike (which went into effect July 26, 2024) might end. As it stands, any developer looking to employ SAG-AFTRA talent to perform must sign either the new Tiered-Budget Independent Interactive Media Agreement, the Interim Interactive Media Agreement, or the Interim Interactive Localization Agreement before moving forward with production, all of which offer "critical AI protection.""

"Update: Following this article's publication, a representative from Microsoft reached out to GameSpot to provide the following statement:

"Our quality assurance team is an integral part of our business and is key to our ability to deliver games our players will love. We respect the team's right to express their viewpoints and are deeply committed to reaching a fair and equitable resolution that acknowledges the teams' contributions. There has been substantial progress over the course of the negotiations, reaching tentative agreements on a majority of the topics at the table. We have presented a package proposal that we believe is fair--if accepted it would result in immediate compensation increases, even more robust benefits and is in alignment to the company’s hybrid model of 3 days in office. We look forward to continuing this progress during negotiations."


I find Microsoft's response interesting. Most of it is the usual sterile corpo jargon and legalese safespeak.

But they say they've offered reasonable terms and "even more robust benefits" when the union alleges little to no benefits. As always with such things, each side will present itself with bias and we do not know the real discussions behind closed doors.

 

[Lokaum D+]

more layoffs on the way

 

[The Lunch Legend]

 

[IFireflyl]

All I can say is:

Show of hands: who is surprised to see Microsoft mismanaging an acquired studio? Anyone?

 

[MiguelItUp]

When I was in QA with ATVI back in the early 2000s, we were not actually hired by the company, but a contractor staffing agency called Volt.
Is this common now with QA? Some people would eventually get hired on but QA was always looked at as sort of a way to get your foot in the door and is pretty much the lowest rung of the ladder. I can't imagine they have much leverage since the skill set required is like entry level. Personally I never thought of QA in (video games) as like an actual career.

It can be. Some studios start you off as contract, then they transition you into full-time if you make the cut. But external agencies/QA studios still exist. QLOC is a pretty popular example of an external QA company that's hired by various developers and publishers.

QA is where I started in games and moved up until I branched off into other departments. I genuinely enjoy QA though, and would have no problem returning and managing again if the pay is right, lol. QA is always a good starting point.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

All I can say is:

Show of hands: who is surprised to see Microsoft mismanaging an acquired studio? Anyone?

Literally no one who knows anything about Microsoft

But they can just lay off the entire current QA team and hire new people. There's no shortage of people looking to break into the gaming industry and QA is one of the most common entry points

 

[digital_ghost]

.

 

[Arsic]

Good luck.

 

[PauloRoberto]

I find Microsoft's response interesting. Most of it is the usual sterile corpo jargon and legalese safespeak.

But they say they've offered reasonable terms and "even more robust benefits" when the union alleges little to no benefits. As always with such things, each side will present itself with bias and we do not know the real discussions behind closed doors.

I work as a contractor for a US based company (I'm brazilian BTW) and i already worked as a contractor for MS Brazil 10 years ago... using what i have SEEN with my own very eyes and what my manager tells me about outsourced contractors for MS, i can say that, by definition, MS is wrong about work conditions :-(

 

[LordOcidax]

Why this socialism groups are allowed in US?

 

[Jinzo Prime]

Why this socialism groups are allowed in US?

Because you need to read a history book.

 

[The Lunch Legend]

Why this socialism groups are allowed in US?

Unions are a form of organized crime.

 

[proandrad]

They ain’t getting remote work back, they need to drop that shit. Covid made office workers too comfortable. Don’t give Microsoft an excuse to nuke the entire studio and outsource to china. They are already dying to get rid of the sense of entitlement from the dei years.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Not related to this thread's topic but it was mentioned in the article so I'll just say

The SAG-AFTRA thing is fucking hilarious. They have been on strike 9 months now and literally nobody gives a shit. Voice acting in North America doesn't get the kind of respect it does in Asia. A lot of games which actually used the SAG-AFTRA VA's have either just recast with non-union VA's, or simply left the characters unvoiced going forward. This is especially hilarious in the case of the Chinese companies who literally could not care less about the English VA's period and Mihoyo are just leaving major characters unvoiced in Genshin Impact because let's face it everyone who plays that game uses the Chinese or Japanese voices anyways

 

[Blank Space Invader]

Why this socialism groups are allowed in US?

Unions are a form of organized crime.

 

[Blank Space Invader]

Not related to this thread's topic but it was mentioned in the article so I'll just say

The SAG-AFTRA thing is fucking hilarious. They have been on strike 9 months now and literally nobody gives a shit. Voice acting in North America doesn't get the kind of respect it does in Asia. A lot of games which actually used the SAG-AFTRA VA's have either just recast with non-union VA's, or simply left the characters unvoiced going forward. This is especially hilarious in the case of the Chinese companies who literally could not care less about the English VA's period and Mihoyo are just leaving major characters unvoiced in Genshin Impact because let's face it everyone who plays that game uses the Chinese or Japanese voices anyways

Well said. I recall the strike starting and making the news rounds, and then nothing. When I read the article I created this topic for, I was surprised by the fact that they are still striking. I had no idea it was still going lol. I mean, I can absolutely understand their concerns about AI and all of that, but they are still striking yet it doesn't seem to be accomplishing anything. Games are going on without them. Perhaps there are internal snags because of it but if there are, I don't see the outward result of it.

Agreed about Asian VA. They are hardcore about it (and audio in general in games). Every time I watch a trailer for a JRPG, the VA cast is always prominently part of the character credits. It's like how Hollywood bills actors and also certain directors, producers, and even composers. You don't see that here in the US, except for when Nolan North and Troy Baker were voice acting in everything. But they were the only ones you'd see for the most part. Laura Bailey made the rounds, and there was another VA I recall seeing credits for, but that was about it. It just isn't a big deal in the US, and nowhere near revered as it is in the Asian game industry.

 

[Gojiira]

After all the shite ‘great games’ they’ve put out in the last 2 decades, they should be on their knees thanking MS for keeping them in a job.
Get back to work Bethestards and sort out a new engine! Fire Todd while your at it.

 

[Mistake]

Unions can be good or bad, depends on the situation really. From what I can tell by the OP, the workers seem to be asking for a bit much, but you don't negotiate by starting with the bare minimum. Who knows

 

[Hawk The Slayer]

I just want my Elder Scrolls VI out by the next few years.

 

[Blank Space Invader]

I just want my Elder Scrolls VI out by the next few years.

I do too, yet I have zero faith in it being decent, let alone good. Hell it won't even be finished like any other BGS game, but given how long it has taken to release that shit won't fly this time around. It will be a half-assed mess of monetization and build-the-game-for-yourself via programmed in-game mechanics like Homes in Skyrim, Settlements in Fallout 4, and the mod community via Creation Kit. I say these things as someone whose favorite video game ever is Skyrim, and Oblivion and Fallout 3 usually sit in my Top 5. BGS is a joke now and has been for awhile. ZeniMax and Microsoft are largely to blame, in my opinion. I do not believe that BGS will ever return to form.

 

[Cert.in.Death]

Not confident that unionization is the answer for game developers’ workplace woes. But lacking an alternative to propose, I’ll monitor this development with high interest (MS had previously welcomed unionization, or rather, not actively combatted it in the game dev space).

 

[spons]

I don't know how much power unions have in the US, but here it's all about worker protection and we're in dire need of that in most places.

 

[bbeach123]

Soon, they'll follow Microsoft's employment policy, only contractors for up to 18 months, no employees.

 

[March Climber]

We were just about to get a huge update to ESO this April, which included a big update to the combat system.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

Why this socialism groups are allowed in US?

Unions are a form of organized crime.

Here, this applies to both of you:

Are you by any chances…embarrassed millionaires?

 

[Panajev2001a]

Literally no one who knows anything about Microsoft

But they can just lay off the entire current QA team and hire new people. There's no shortage of people looking to break into the gaming industry and QA is one of the most common entry points

Sure… firing experienced QAs that worked with the devs directly for years and hiring cheap underpaid external contractors is a recipe for success .

No wonder we get buggier and buggier games if the QA role, on top of being often considered just QC, is demanded and the first thing you save money on.

 

[Blank Space Invader]

Sure… firing experienced QAs that worked with the devs directly for years and hiring cheap underpaid external contractors is a recipe for success .

No wonder we get buggier and buggier games if the QA role, on top of being often considered just QC, is demanded and the first thing you save money on.

I haven't followed anything specific to Microsoft's QA teams directly, but I can confidently say that throughout the years I have seen a lot of complaints from QA members and teams across the board in all of the gaming industry. Sure, maybe MS's QA teams are the best in the business. However QA complaints abound about how corpos only care about perception and the bare minimum of quality control. Their focus is on pleasing investors, meeting deadlines, and showcasing a product that is shiny and will focus group well and look good in marketing and promotional settings. If it actually plays well in the hands of the player on release day is of no consequence to them. Add to that MS's generally clueless culture and I highly doubt they give a shit about how experienced and intimately their teams work with devs. They will absolutely get rid of them rather than sit at the table and haggle. Plenty of people will jump at the chance to be a QA member. The writing has been on the wall for years now; big business has ruined gaming. It is almost exclusively corpo. It amazes me that people are still genuinely blind to that, or willfully ignorant to it.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

If it actually plays well in the hands of the player on release day is of no consequence to them.

That is not exactly correct. Bad games can slow down adoption, limit word of mouth, finally delay developing new features and content till the base game is patched up to standard. All these things are different to quantify, but the same can be said for a lot of marketing budgets being spend.
You can even make a case that experienced QA dept. will speed up the development during the final phases - I always remember the article talking how South Korea is recognized as the second-fastest country globally in constructing nuclear plants, averaging just 56 months per plant, compared to the global average of 190 months. That has been attributed to a core construction team working together for years or even decades.

 

[Baemono]

Union been on strike, he's down on his luck, so tough

 

[kapshin]

Hold up. Bethesda has QA?

 

[Kerotan]

In the current gaming climate I can't see how Bethesda workers think this'll work out for them. Very risky.

 

[Regginator]

Here, this applies to both of you:

Are you by any chances…embarrassed millionaires?

I mean, technically, they're correct. Unionizing is one way to manifest class struggle. The ruling classes don't like unity of the working class, because divided workers are more easily exploited and turned against each other. Historically (and to a certain extent contemporary as well), attempts to unionize are demonized if not outright criminalized by laws dictated by aforementioned ruling classes. Thus, organized "crime".

(I hope this was the reasoning behind it, otherwise definitely one of those temporarily embarrassed millionaires.)

 

[StueyDuck]

Here, this applies to both of you:

Are you by any chances…embarrassed millionaires?

While im sure the Actiblizz union probably doesn't have a criminal element, at least not that we know of.

Historically, many unions have been run or influenced by unsavory types of people, from criminal to selfish behaviour.

Unions aren't perfect and can be manipulated.

Like most things in life there is good intent but taken advantage of by the worst kind of person.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Why this socialism groups are allowed in US?

Because US labour laws are shit and have been lobbied by powerful corporations to provide almost no protections to workers.

 

[Lunarorbit]

Surely there must be a mistake in the title cause you said QA workers were striking. They don't have those at Bethesda

 

[justiceiro]

Who could have thought that a company with most problems in the QA department... Is also the company with most issues on the QA department!