The State of Literature

Tams

Tams

Member
So I recently got back into reading after reading perhaps two books ina decade. Though honestly, I stopped because I find it more addictive than computer games or TV shows/films. I will stay up all night reading.

I've mostly been reading sci-fi. I re-read Dune and have started on the Culture series.

Anyway, to the point. Is there a load of acclaimed dredge out there? I'm not talking about there being more to read than ever, I'm also talking about 'classics'.

'Dune' built a fanastic world, but the writing was dire. Too many made-up terms explained in excruciating detail, and Herbert couldn't write relationships for shit.

'Consider Phlebas' also built a great world. But my goodness is it some GCSE (junior high school) level descriptive writing bullshit. In my GCSE English Language exam years ago I had the question 'Describe your perfect world', and this is the level of nonsense and shite I scribbled down for that.
 
I don't understand what you want, sorry. As english is not my first language, maybe it is from me. But if you want recommendations: Jules Verne books are great. Some of them are close to science fiction, like this one. When I was a kid, I loved go to a library and read all the sci-fi that I could. If you complain about classics, remember that what they created was new and revolutionary back then and are the foundation of modern litterature, and that it is normal that we only get better from there. So it is partially our fault , as our taste have changed from the time of those books, and that we have been submerged by so many greats books that any small default get magnified in a sense. Tolkien Lord of the Ring books for example, are still great. But those pages of poem are often just skipped by people. and it began probably too slow by modern taste. No Bran chapter one there ! But I read it young (like 11/12) so I had no problem with that.

I found out that I loved quantity more than quality and moved on from classisc to chinese weak to strong stories (wuxia and xanxia books if you want to know)and fan works a lot. Sites like Fanfiction.net, Royal Road, Spacebattles... allowed me to read to my content and to decide what type of story I wanted to read, and with authors that explain theirs opinions and reasonings live in those sites.
 
Most 'classics' are going to be harder to read. Writing was different. Words were different. Emphasis on characters wasn't always there. Try reading Hp Lovecraft. Very difficult. In fact, I can't think of single classic that I've read that wasn't a little dry. Arthur C Clark's 2001 novel was pretty good if I recall correctly. Dry but it gives you a lot more detail than the movie could. He wrote several sequels as well. Maybe start there if you've got a scfi itch.
 
Daneel Elijah said:
I don't understand what you want, sorry. As english is not my first language, maybe it is from me. But if you want recommendations: Jules Verne books are great. Some of them are close to science fiction, like this one. When I was a kid, I loved go to a library and read all the sci-fi that I could. If you complain about classics, remember that what they created was new and revolutionary back then and are the foundation of modern litterature, and that it is normal that we only get better from there. So it is partially our fault , as our taste have changed from the time of those books, and that we have been submerged by so many greats books that any small default get magnified in a sense. Tolkien Lord of the Ring books for example, are still great. But those pages of poem are often just skipped by people. and it began probably too slow by modern taste. No Bran chapter one there ! But I read it young (like 11/12) so I had no problem with that.

I found out that I loved quantity more than quality and moved on from classisc to chinese weak to strong stories (wuxia and xanxia books if you want to know)and fan works a lot. Sites like Fanfiction.net, Royal Road, Spacebattles... allowed me to read to my content and to decide what type of story I wanted to read, and with authors that explain theirs opinions and reasonings live in those sites.
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Haha, I love Jules Verne's work.

No, I'm not looking for suggestions. Just having a rant.
 
Winter John said:
You think Dune is literature? What are you 5? If you want literature try Nausea by Sartre. That's fuckin literature.
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neil degrasse tyson we got a badass over here GIF
 
I think Kurt Vonnegut had his character Kilgore Trout explain that he hated the gatekeepers of literary fiction because they were always going on about writing complex three-dimensional characters, when he thought the world already had enough of those without him burdening it with more.
 
Golgo 13 said:
Steinbeck is incredible. I'm about halfway through Grapes Of Wrath and disappointed I didn't get into his stuff earlier. What is your favorite?
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East of Eden, is beautiful and weird. The stuff with the boys mom weirds me out. But the Stuff with Adam and the farm hand and the rest is interesting.
 
Tams said:
'Dune' built a fanastic world, but the writing was dire. Too many made-up terms explained in excruciating detail, and Herbert couldn't write relationships for shit.

'Consider Phlebas' also built a great world. But my goodness is it some GCSE (junior high school) level descriptive writing bullshit. In my GCSE English Language exam years ago I had the question 'Describe your perfect world', and this is the level of nonsense and shite I scribbled down for that.
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H5m31JU.gif

My two favorite books 😳
I feel like someone ran my soul through a blender lmao
 
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Yeah OP sorry, Dune is NOT considered a classic. You want relationships that feel real? Try Dostoyevsky, starting with Crime And Punishment and then graduate to Brothers Karamazov. Those are classics my friend. Those books will change you.

On the funner, lighter side:

Do you like Detective Novels? Then I recommend Raymond Chandler. The Big Sleep is a great place to start. 1930's LA Detective novels, untouchable writing.
 
As someone who used to read an awful lot since I learned how to, I think the art of writing has been going to shit quickly in the last 30 years or so. Originals and translations from the 80s are much better reads than what became mainstream just a decade later.

The best period for world literature was more or less 1850-1970. Outstanding stuff in just any language. Writers were avid readers, cultured people, men and women who lived in the world and not online. They were often poor or middle class, not spoiled lords living without a care in the world. They also didn't really have deadlines - they would spend literal decades writing a single book. There were exceptions like Dickens, but even then the writer knew his craft.

I think we already have a thread for book opinions and recommendations, you may check that one out. Should be in the first 5 pages of Off-topic.
 
Just do what I do OP, ignore classics and only read stuff that snooty people consider "schlock". Especially since you're into sci-fi. There are tons of books I've read that aren't literary masterpieces, but are amazing stories that build great worlds or have great characters or premises.

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My wife and I likes to go to Barnes and Noble to chill. Lately there seems to be an overwhelming amount of trash there.

Maybe there was always trash, but it seems like the vast VAST majority of books are garbage. It doesn't really seem like there is anything special now.
 
NecrosaroIII said:
My wife and I likes to go to Barnes and Noble to chill. Lately there seems to be an overwhelming amount of trash there.

Maybe there was always trash, but it seems like the vast VAST majority of books are garbage. It doesn't really seem like there is anything special now.
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The atmosphere at Barnes and Noble is great, though.
 
NecrosaroIII said:
My wife and I likes to go to Barnes and Noble to chill. Lately there seems to be an overwhelming amount of trash there.

Maybe there was always trash, but it seems like the vast VAST majority of books are garbage. It doesn't really seem like there is anything special now.
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I swear half of it is manga now.
 
I always like to recommend Remarque or Murakami. Both wrote so many amazing books.

Not related to the two above at all, but I just started to read The Fifth Season by J.K. Bemusing which I really enjoy so far.
 
Tams said:
...Anyway, to the point. Is there a load of acclaimed dredge out there? I'm not talking about there being more to read than ever, I'm also talking about 'classics'.

...
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I have to admit, I'm confused. You're looking for more shite, or you are curious about how to sort through the shite to get to the good stuff?
 
If you want more brain burning or "literary" scifi/fantasy, then try Steven Erikson's Malazan series, Gene wolf's Book of the new sun, or The Three Body Problem.

Or get a proper fucking book...
JaORQc1.jpg
 
Read a confederacy of dunces

Terry pratchett also the long earth series is good

I would also recommend the first law trilogy.

Or don't. It's up to you. Read the twilight series if you wish. Who's gonna stop you ?!?
Patrick Stewart Cheers GIF by Blunt Talk
 
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GeekyDad said:
I have to admit, I'm confused. You're looking for more shite, or you are curious about how to sort through the shite to get to the good stuff?
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Odd for someone who is complaining about how badly things are written his original post did not have enough character development pathos or any symbolisms to 1950 farming methods in Eastern Europe.
If it can't make English school teachers wank them selves off intellectually then why bother writing it?!?

Awkward Jesse Pinkman GIF by Breaking Bad


My above ramblings are a joke do not take them seriously. For like the old tractor it takes time to turn turn in ver field. We must be forever vigilant lest the grain gets stolen. Though it is a warm summer winter approach's.
In the corner the curtain flapped in the wind with a strange grey colour. Odd thought Yuri. I wonder if the new sonic game will be any good ?!?
 
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jufonuk said:
Odd for someone who is complaining about how badly things are written his original post did not have enough character development pathos or any symbolisms to 1950 farming methods in Eastern Europe.
If it can't make English school teachers wank them selves off intellectually then why bother writing it?!?

Awkward Jesse Pinkman GIF by Breaking Bad


My above ramblings are a joke do not take them seriously. For like the old tractor it takes time to turn turn in ver field. We must be forever vigilant lest the grain gets stolen. Though it is a warm summer winter approach's.
In the corner the curtain flapped in the wind with a strange grey colour. Odd thought Yuri. I wonder if the new sonic game will be any good ?!?
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Someone speak jufonuk? Please translate.
 
Golgo 13 said:
Yeah OP sorry, Dune is NOT considered a classic. You want relationships that feel real? Try Dostoyevsky, starting with Crime And Punishment and then graduate to Brothers Karamazov. Those are classics my friend. Those books will change you.

On the funner, lighter side:

Do you like Detective Novels? Then I recommend Raymond Chandler. The Big Sleep is a great place to start. 1930's LA Detective novels, untouchable writing.
Click to expand...

You know, I really liked Crime and Punishment, but Brothers Karamazov felt like a drag. Characters are interesting, but the way the story is told felt like a huge letdown for me since I began with CaP, which for me was the sweetspot between good pacing and philosophical debates; meanwhile, BK only really begins 80% into the novel.

Slicker than your average said:
Has anyone ever read or finished war and peace?
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I have it here, will start reading it after I finish the Iliad and Odyssey.
 
iorek21 said:
You know, I really liked Crime and Punishment, but Brothers Karamazov felt like a drag. Characters are interesting, but the way the story is told felt like a huge letdown for me since I began with CaP, which for me was the sweetspot between good pacing and philosophical debates; meanwhile, BK only really begins 80% into the novel.



I have it here, will start reading it after I finish the Iliad and Odyssey.
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I'm not a sophisticated critic of literature but I mostly agree - Bk could've been condensed into a great 400 page novel - at like 870 pages it's a really big undertaking with some seriously high peaks but also not as compelling page-for-page as Crime And Punishment.

Have you read Notes From The Underground? That's a nice quick shot of Dostoevsky, the first half in particular is quite brilliant.
 
Golgo 13 said:
I'm not a sophisticated critic of literature but I mostly agree - Bk could've been condensed into a great 400 page novel - at like 870 pages it's a really big undertaking with some seriously high peaks but also not as compelling page-for-page as Crime And Punishment.

Have you read Notes From The Underground? That's a nice quick shot of Dostoevsky, the first half in particular is quite brilliant.
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Notes was actually my first Dostoevsky story, I'm probably returning to it one day since I feel more confident in reading this kind of literature nowadays. From what I remember from Notes, the second part has some hilarious between him and some friends, I really liked that part.

I'm also planning to read The Idiot and Demons sometime next year, though I think I'll keep with my rule of reading one russian novel per year since they are so long.
 
Winter John said:
You think Dune is literature? What are you 5? If you want literature try Nausea by Sartre. That's fuckin literature.
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This gatekeeping is why people don't read books.
Golgo 13 said:
Yeah OP sorry, Dune is NOT considered a classic. You want relationships that feel real? Try Dostoyevsky, starting with Crime And Punishment and then graduate to Brothers Karamazov. Those are classics my friend. Those books will change you.

On the funner, lighter side:

Do you like Detective Novels? Then I recommend Raymond Chandler. The Big Sleep is a great place to start. 1930's LA Detective novels, untouchable writing.
Click to expand...

Let's me quote a famous answer from Sir Terry Pratchett to an overeager Journalist who thought they knew better.

"Journalist: You're quite a writer. You've a gift for language, you're a deft hand at plotting, and your books seem to have an enormous amount of attention to detail put into them. You're so good you could write anything. Why write fantasy?

Pratchett: I had a decent lunch, and I'm feeling quite amiable. That's why you're still alive. I think you'd have to explain to me why you've asked that question.

J: It's a rather ghettoized genre.

P: This is true. I cannot speak for the US, where I merely sort of sell okay. But in the UK I think every book— I think I've done twenty in the series— since the fourth book, every one has been one the top ten national bestsellers, either as hardcover or paperback, and quite often as both. Twelve or thirteen have been number one. I've done six juveniles, all of those have nevertheless crossed over to the adult bestseller list. On one occasion I had the adult best seller, the paperback best-seller in a different title, and a third book on the juvenile bestseller list. Now tell me again that this is a ghettoized genre.

J: It's certainly regarded as less than serious fiction.

P: (Sighs) Without a shadow of a doubt, the first fiction ever recounted was fantasy. Guys sitting around the campfire— Was it you who wrote the review? I thought I recognized it— Guys sitting around the campfire telling each other stories about the gods who made lightning, and stuff like that. They did not tell one another literary stories. They did not complain about difficulties of male menopause while being a junior lecturer on some midwestern college campus. Fantasy is without a shadow of a doubt the ur-literature, the spring from which all other literature has flown. Up to a few hundred years ago no one would have disagreed with this, because most stories were, in some sense, fantasy. Back in the middle ages, people wouldn't have thought twice about bringing in Death as a character who would have a role to play in the story. Echoes of this can be seen in Pilgrim's Progress, for example, which hark back to a much earlier type of storytelling. The epic of Gilgamesh is one of the earliest works of literature, and by the standard we would apply now— a big muscular guys with swords and certain godlike connections— That's fantasy. The national literature of Finland, the Kalevala. Beowulf in England. I cannot pronounce Bahaghvad-Gita but the Indian one, you know what I mean. The national literature, the one that underpins everything else, is by the standards that we apply now, a work of fantasy.

Now I don't know what you'd consider the national literature of America, but if the words Moby Dick are inching their way towards this conversation, whatever else it was, it was also a work of fantasy. Fantasy is kind of a plasma in which other things can be carried. I don't think this is a ghetto. This is, fantasy is, almost a sea in which other genres swim. Now it may be that there has developed in the last couple of hundred years a subset of fantasy which merely uses a different icongraphy, and that is, if you like, the serious literature, the Booker Prize contender. Fantasy can be serious literature. Fantasy has often been serious literature. You have to fairly dense to think that Gulliver's Travels is only a story about a guy having a real fun time among big people and little people and horses and stuff like that. What the book was about was something else. Fantasy can carry quite a serious burden, and so can humor. So what you're saying is, strip away the trolls and the dwarves and things and put everyone into modern dress, get them to agonize a bit, mention Virginia Woolf a few times, and there! Hey! I've got a serious novel. But you don't actually have to do that.

(Pauses) That was a bloody good answer, though I say it myself."

― Terry Pratchett
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Ballthyrm said:
This gatekeeping is why people don't read books.


Let's me quote a famous answer from Sir Terry Pratchett to an overeager Journalist who thought they knew better.
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Terry Pratchett was a treasure. Kind of a pity that the stuff he wrote is basically untranslatable and absolutely requires knowing the original language to really appreciate it. I mean, the English-speaking audience in this world is quite vast, but his work is still lost on so many people. Like some Japanese books I'm reading at the moment - all their meaning is essentially lost in translation, as it relies on the original language and its perks.
 
Diskworld is a great series, of what i read.

Which was Mostly anything with rincewind in the book.

Back then I only had a few local libraries to get books they had a few Discworld books but what I read. I loved. I've read the long earth series and good omens. Plus a shed load of discworld books to know Pratchett is great
 
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Tams said:
So I recently got back into reading after reading perhaps two books ina decade. Though honestly, I stopped because I find it more addictive than computer games or TV shows/films. I will stay up all night reading.

I've mostly been reading sci-fi. I re-read Dune and have started on the Culture series.

Anyway, to the point. Is there a load of acclaimed dredge out there? I'm not talking about there being more to read than ever, I'm also talking about 'classics'.

'Dune' built a fanastic world, but the writing was dire. Too many made-up terms explained in excruciating detail, and Herbert couldn't write relationships for shit.

'Consider Phlebas' also built a great world. But my goodness is it some GCSE (junior high school) level descriptive writing bullshit. In my GCSE English Language exam years ago I had the question 'Describe your perfect world', and this is the level of nonsense and shite I scribbled down for that.
Click to expand...
What did you make of the Hyperion Cantos by Dan Simmons?
 
Spending time each day reading great books really highlights how fucking abysmal even supposed "good" video game writing is. Try going from reading Steinbeck directly to playing hyper focus-tested trash like Diablo 4 :|.


Before I started reading great books I never really thought this way or had these feelings towards games. Oh well.
 
OmegaSupreme said:
Me over here reading Red Rising which is a ya hunger games like.

i'm dumb bubba j GIF by Jeff Dunham'm dumb bubba j GIF by Jeff Dunham
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lol yeah when it comes to books I always feel like the movie viewer equivalent that only watches high budget action blockbusters, I love these light fun fantasy and sci fi novels like Red Rising, The Fifth Season, City of Stairs, The Way of Kings, All you need is kill, The three body problem etc

Also Red Rising is cool!.
Sure the first book is a bit too Battle Royale inspired (like Hunger Games), but it's still fun, and then the second and third one completely leave that behind and are really awesome.
I made the mistake of finishing the second book before going to bed and couldn't fall asleep for the next 3 hours because of that ending
 
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