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[PrefectAboro]

Ground Zeroes/Phantom Pain has the best stealth gameplay in all of gaming history (maybe Splinter Cell's Chaos Theory comes close). But the narrative just doesn't live up to the rest of the series. I did like how they portrayed Otacon's father though. All in all I STILL stand by the fact MGS5 is way better than Death Stranding. Come on did you seriously enjoy holding L2 and R2 for the entire game??! Only good thing about Death Stranding was the direction of the cutscenes, all the dialogue and storyline was cringe and forgettable.

 

[Klosshufvud]

Three times have I attempted to invest myself in TW3 and three times have I failed. The combat is just too janky and rigid. There are so many great melee-based action games so the TW3's shortcoming come off as near inexcusable. I remember trading my PS4 copy for Bloodborne. Man what a night and day difference that was. I could barely get past TW3's tutorial area whereas I could not bring myself to put Bloodborne down. I went from janky open world story game to highly deliberate level design with great visceral gameplay and minimum expository story. I still find it criminal how hard BB got overshadowed by TW3 in GOTY awards. IMO a game like BB just can't age.

 

[Fbh]

To me these 2 games are actually an example of why I don't always agree with the "gameplay is the only important thing" argument.

Because the actual gameplay is 100% better in MGSV but I just didn't like it that much. I found the world, characters and story fairly boring and I never liked the whole base building and resource management aspect.
Meanwhile the actual gameplay in the Witcher 3 is pretty mediocre (the combat in particular) but I enjoyed every moment of it because the world, characters and stories really clicked with me. It's a game that can have 20 quests that basically boil down to "follo the Gps --> interact with glowing thing in the environment ---> follow a trail ---> Fight enemy" but it feel very unique and fresh each time because of all the added context provided by the stories, characters and decisions.

 

[Bernardougf]

Both came out in 2015. In fact, MGS V came out shortly after I finally finished TW3. They couldn’t be more different obviously. Stealth action vs fantasy RPG. The interesting part is their strengths and weaknesses are essentially opposite of each other. Which game you prefer says so much about what you value in a game. Not good or bad either way.

The reason I thought of this is because I was replaying TW3 with the next gen patch. I got a huge wave of nostalgia because of the impeccable soundtrack, atmosphere, and characters. But holy shit the controls are FUCKED (no, the alternate movement setting is not good). Basic traversal in this game is an absolute jank fest. Geralt simultaneously feels weightless but also unresponsive. It’s like Rockstar game responsiveness without the amazing animation quality. Geralt randomly gets hung up on terrain constantly. Then he’ll randomly decide to do a somersault while walking down stairs for some reason? It also has this dumb thing where the game decides when you switch from exploration mode to combat mode. This results in you getting hit because you’re standing there like a fucking idiot instead of blocking or dodging because the game hasn’t put you in combat mode yet. Oh, and if you wanna jump over a fence or ANYTHING while fighting something? Get fucked. And the horse controls? We all know about that. It just feels ridiculous for this badass Witcher who slays monsters for a living to move like a spastic idiot.

Anyway, I finally had enough of the jank. Not even the fucking INCREDIBLE ambience of Skellige could keep me going. I thought to myself “what’s the exact opposite of this from a control and animation standpoint?” It hit me immediately. MGS V. I loaded it up. Take control of Snake for the first time. Holy. Shit. I felt like an MS patient making a miracle recovery and regaining full control of my limbs. I can actually fucking move! Sprint, crouch, dive, jump, roll, etc. EVERYTHING in this game looks and feels awesome. The horse controls feel great. You can call your horse while in a dead sprint and mount it in one fluid motion. It felt so great coming off TW3.

MGS V, however, has an undercooked story that takes a backseat ( feels crazy to say that about a Kojima game). It has a dead open world with no active towns or settlements what so ever, and basically nothing to do except fuck with enemy camps. This is in sharp contrast to The Witcher’s super vibrant open world and story. But you know what? There’s no way I can consider Witcher 3 a better game when the gap between the basic act of moving your character is so vast between the two games.

Idk, this turned into a whole ass rant. What do you guys think of these two games?

Yeah one is a great fucking game that still is sold with new upgrades and expansions in pretty much redefined a whole genre ... the other is a shit game from kojima , worst of a late successful series

 

[Rendered Tangent]

I don’t think you got your argument right given that the Witcher is the larger IP out of the two…

So no, it looks like gameplay with boring and confusing story doesn’t trump everything.

You think the Witcher is a bigger I.P than Metal Gear Solid?

 

[Cyberpunkd]

You think the Witcher is a bigger I.P than Metal Gear Solid?

Witcher series sold 75mln copies as opposed to MGS 60 even though MGS is a series that is older by 20 years (first MGS game - 1987, first Witcher game - 2007).

Witcher series started as a series of books with new one being released next year.

Witcher series has multiple seasons of a TV show (regardless of quality).

Yes, Witcher is a larger IP than MGS, sorry if you thought otherwise.

 

[Soodanim]

You think the Witcher is a bigger I.P than Metal Gear Solid?

I have to agree with Cyberpunkd , at this point in time the MGS franchise is fading and Witcher is a current franchise spanning multiple media types.

MGS holds a stronger iconic status in the gaming industry, that's undoubtably true. But in the here and now, MGS isn't doing anything except poor quality ports and a remake we haven't seen any of.

 

[TheAssist]

In 2015 I thought The Witcher is the future of RPG's and MGS is the future of third person movement. The fluid motion from sprinting onto your horseback is still one of the most badass moves in video games. Unfortunately both havent really been matched in my opinion. I absolutely loved both games, but Witcher stuck longer with me because of its atmosphere and narrative. And probably because it had amazing DLC.

Would be amazing if we could marry these two great concepts in future games. And while we are nostalgic, lets throw some rocket league and undertale in there as well.

 

[Perrott]

An undercooked story? MGSV's story works perfectly for what its trying to tell. No, you're not supposed to get a clear understanding of what's happening and where exactly you're going to in terms of plot because that's the intent, that's what Venom Snake is going through, and getting to see the full picture only in retrospective, through the consumption of recordings of what actually went down, builds literally into the theme of the game. That said, its not like there aren't any clues as to what's really going on behind the scenes when blasting through the campaign for the first time. All the information is there, scattered throughout the mission areas, but you just need to know where and when to look for it.

And regarding the "empty" open-world, well, what were you expecting of two isolated warzones still set within the Cold War era?

 

[The artful mincer]

MGS5 basically perfected what I've nicknamed the " Fight dudes with guns genre" .

Basically it doesn't matter if your 3rd person, 1st person, superpowerd, grounded, action or stealth all these games basically end up feeling the same.

I feel MGS5 did this genre as good possible maybe the last of us 2 refined it a bit. Every game since where humans with guns are the main enemy I Immediately lose interest in.

 

[Rendered Tangent]

Witcher series sold 75mln copies as opposed to MGS 60 even though MGS is a series that is older by 20 years (first MGS game - 1987, first Witcher game - 2007).

Witcher series started as a series of books with new one being released next year.

Witcher series has multiple seasons of a TV show (regardless of quality).

Yes, Witcher is a larger IP than MGS, sorry if you thought otherwise.

I still think MGS is the bigger of the two.

 

[Killer8]

I don’t think you got your argument right given that the Witcher is the larger IP out of the two…

So no, it looks like gameplay with boring and confusing story doesn’t trump everything.

I didn't know that we are meant to use sales figures to inform our subjective interpretation of a game's quality.

My bad!

 

[Cyberpunkd]

I didn't know that we are meant to use sales figures to inform our subjective interpretation of a game's quality.

My bad!

Quality has nothing to do with which IP is “larger”. Call of Duty is larger that the Witcher and I think the games are shit.

 

[CZY]

Weird comparision.

Is comparing apples to oranges really that fascinating?

OP bringing genuine discussion and your input is HURRRRR YER WEIRD BRO HAHA YER DUMB

eat shit, both of you

 

[MidGenRefresh]

OP bringing genuine discussion and your input is HURRRRR YER WEIRD BRO HAHA YER DUMB

eat shit, both of you

Completely different games in completely different genres having completely different priorities. Such a fascinating comparison and deep, deep discussion. 10/10 material.

 

[Klosshufvud]

Completely different games in completely different genres having completely different priorities. Such a fascinating comparison and deep, deep discussion. 10/10 material.

Both are AAA open world action games with heavy emphasis on story. Not really world's apart.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

Both are AAA open world action games with heavy emphasis on story. Not really world's apart.

I'm not sure if you're serious.

 

[Tomeru]

This is one of those posts you're not going to remember in a couple of weeks.

You don't need to remember the truth. You KNOW it.

 

[Roni]

Both are AAA open world action games with heavy emphasis on story. Not really world's apart.

Some people are incapable of considering the similarities, only the differences. Kinda like people stuck with a glass half empty perspective...

 

[Laptop1991]

Completely different games in completely different genres having completely different priorities. Such a fascinating comparison and deep, deep discussion. 10/10 material.

This is my take as well, i would never think of them as similar in any way.

 

[sachos]

OP is mostly comparing control schemes i dont think it is that far fetched thing to do for a 3rd person action game. Interesting post OP.
I never had that much trouble with Geralt movement but yeah its clunky, one thing i HATE about Witcher 3 though is the camera follow animation, it seems like the camera animation is tied to the walk/run animation of Geralt so each time he takes a step with his right leg (don't remember wich leg) the camera has a small jump forward, i can't unsee it each time i play the game. Its so jarring. Anyone that has the game go give it a try, pay atention not to Geralt but the sides of the camera, watch the world moving and you will notice the stutter/jumps, kinda like frame stuttering but for the camera.

 

[simpatico]

MGS V is really gonna be the standard bearer for third person movement and emergent gameplay for a long time. If finished it would be among the GOATs. Now it's just a great curiosity and the omnibus of Konami's hubris.

 

[Kumomeme]

if we want to compare about control and animation responsiveness, these two game is good example

Witcher 3, known to has responsive and control issue. controlling Geralt is like controlling drunk oldman. cant even walk straight. his horse control is like ass. his animation also has no weight. more obvious when in combat. each swing is lacking in weight and also has issue with hit box. particularly huge responsiveness issue between its animation and landed hit execution. its look good when we watch the video but not when we actually hold the controller. we can see the obvious devs prioritize over fancy looking animation foremost at the cost of proper control during development. while MGSV has snappy control and one of best horse ride out there. still one of the best control in videogame IMO. even running around feel really really good. each of Snake action is snappy smooth while didnt waste any sec to execute. if Witcher 3 is a case where the animation control over player control, then MGSV is a case of where player in control of the animation.

another good comparison can be make is with RDR2. that game is even worse that Witcher 3.

other than MGSV, other melee combat based game that can we use as comparison in term of control and responsiveness against Witcher 3 is Souls game, Dragons Dogma and Nier Automata. particularly the later two.

 

[Danjin44]

other than MGSV, other melee combat based game that can we use as comparison in term of control and responsiveness against Witcher 3 is Souls game, Dragons Dogma and Nier Automata. particularly the later two.

I loved what Nier Automata dev said about animation in games.

Meet PlatinumGames’ NieR:Automata team! | PlatinumGames Official Blog

PG game designer Takahisa Taura here. It was my pleasure to share some new information and footage from NieR:A […]

www.platinumgames.com

Here’s a common situation: You’re patting yourself on the back for making an animation that looks super-cool and flows really nicely. Then, you put your perfect animation into the game engine and try controlling it, and it dawns on you that it’s too slow, too clunky. With tears in your eyes, you go back and cut away huge parts of your magnificent creation until it finally feels good.

As an animator first and foremost, there’s a lot you can’t help but want to leave in. But you’re not making a movie here – you’re making a game, and it has to be tight and responsive. The truest sign of a skilled game animator is their ability to make something great with the number of frames they’re given.

Unfortunately majority of western devs prioritize realism and immersion over everything else including gameplay. They dont care if their game is terrible to control as long as its immersive because in their eyes game feel "gamey" is considered negative.

 

[Kumomeme]

I loved what Nier Automata dev said about animation in games.

Meet PlatinumGames’ NieR:Automata team! | PlatinumGames Official Blog

PG game designer Takahisa Taura here. It was my pleasure to share some new information and footage from NieR:A […]

www.platinumgames.com

Unfortunately majority of western devs prioritize realism and immersion over everything else including gameplay. They dont care if their game is terrible to control as long as its immersive because in their eyes game feel "gamey" is considered negative.

THIS

this is article actually what come to my mind. the Platinum devs did well explained how the animator need to suck up their pride to sacrifice fancy animation in favour of gameplay and control aspect. sometimes i see people questioned in social media that why japanese game often has less 'realistic' animation compare to western developers counterpart and this is the answer. they simply prioritize gameplay over realistic or fancy looking animation/presentation. its not that they cant. the result is their game might look 'less realistic' on video but often feel better and smooth to control when we actually hold the controller. while some of AAA game from western devs could suffer from basic issue like responsiveness and control despite their higher production value.

 

[UnNamed]

MGS has undoubtedly more freedom, but it lacks of everything except gameplay: there is no glue between events, there is no glue between places.

TW3 has less freedom, but the story is well written and very tied to the gameplay.

 

[Shtof]

I'm with the OP on this one. And I clearly liked one game better than the other.

For the millennial teenager, MGS3 was arguably the coolest thing ever. But it was also a fantastic video game.
Even if it was linear and tightly structured, the player had so many tools and mechanics at their disposal.
You really had the opportunity to play with your enemies. Not only that, some of the best boss battles in history.
Sure, the controls were a bit weird, especially in Snake Eater. But they were not necessarily janky. Once you learnt them, they stuck.

The hype for MGS4 was unreal. PS3 exclusive. Cell processor. Blu-ray. And it was a great entertainment product.
One of the greatest improvements over the predecessor was that the controls were intuitive, super slick and had great depth.
It just didn't have very much gameplay.

MGSV really expanded upon that aspect, with open world, even more tools and abilities at your disposal, and at last, the enemy bases felt kind of alive.
I'm not really in on the idea that MGSV felt dead, at least at the time it was released.

 

[UnNamed]

MGSV is one of the best games ever made. Nearly perfect controls. Tons of varied ways to approach encounters. Like a giant toybox of stealth mechanics at their peak.

This is what I find baffling every time I read it.

MGS surely has many way to approach enemies. Except the game rewards you when you use the same mechanics over and over, and over.

Use tranq darts like Rambo, you get Rank S. Sneak in the base and clear the area attacking enemies stealthly making no sound: Rank B or C because you took too long.

The game NEVER rewards the player for using different and surprising techniques, it only rewards me when I beat the game as fast as possible.

This is just a fake freedom.

 

[hussar16]

Both came out in 2015. In fact, MGS V came out shortly after I finally finished TW3. They couldn’t be more different obviously. Stealth action vs fantasy RPG. The interesting part is their strengths and weaknesses are essentially opposite of each other. Which game you prefer says so much about what you value in a game. Not good or bad either way.

The reason I thought of this is because I was replaying TW3 with the next gen patch. I got a huge wave of nostalgia because of the impeccable soundtrack, atmosphere, and characters. But holy shit the controls are FUCKED (no, the alternate movement setting is not good). Basic traversal in this game is an absolute jank fest. Geralt simultaneously feels weightless but also unresponsive. It’s like Rockstar game responsiveness without the amazing animation quality. Geralt randomly gets hung up on terrain constantly. Then he’ll randomly decide to do a somersault while walking down stairs for some reason? It also has this dumb thing where the game decides when you switch from exploration mode to combat mode. This results in you getting hit because you’re standing there like a fucking idiot instead of blocking or dodging because the game hasn’t put you in combat mode yet. Oh, and if you wanna jump over a fence or ANYTHING while fighting something? Get fucked. And the horse controls? We all know about that. It just feels ridiculous for this badass Witcher who slays monsters for a living to move like a spastic idiot.

Anyway, I finally had enough of the jank. Not even the fucking INCREDIBLE ambience of Skellige could keep me going. I thought to myself “what’s the exact opposite of this from a control and animation standpoint?” It hit me immediately. MGS V. I loaded it up. Take control of Snake for the first time. Holy. Shit. I felt like an MS patient making a miracle recovery and regaining full control of my limbs. I can actually fucking move! Sprint, crouch, dive, jump, roll, etc. EVERYTHING in this game looks and feels awesome. The horse controls feel great. You can call your horse while in a dead sprint and mount it in one fluid motion. It felt so great coming off TW3.

MGS V, however, has an undercooked story that takes a backseat ( feels crazy to say that about a Kojima game). It has a dead open world with no active towns or settlements what so ever, and basically nothing to do except fuck with enemy camps. This is in sharp contrast to The Witcher’s super vibrant open world and story. But you know what? There’s no way I can consider Witcher 3 a better game when the gap between the basic act of moving your character is so vast between the two games.

Idk, this turned into a whole ass rant. What do you guys think of these two games?

U have to change camera speed then u Wil feel much better.i think I turned it down and it feels much better now

 

[Exentryk]

Witcher 3 is the greatest game ever made. The combat is heaps of fun if you get into the right builds. Never had any major issues with the movement. Have no interest in MGS games and haven't played them.

 

[March Climber]

I loved what Nier Automata dev said about animation in games.

Meet PlatinumGames’ NieR:Automata team! | PlatinumGames Official Blog

PG game designer Takahisa Taura here. It was my pleasure to share some new information and footage from NieR:A […]

www.platinumgames.com

Unfortunately majority of western devs prioritize realism and immersion over everything else including gameplay. They dont care if their game is terrible to control as long as its immersive because in their eyes game feel "gamey" is considered negative.

THIS

this is article actually what come to my mind. the Platinum devs did well explained how the animator need to suck up their pride to sacrifice fancy animation in favour of gameplay and control aspect. sometimes i see people questioned in social media that why japanese game often has less 'realistic' animation compare to western developers counterpart and this is the answer. they simply prioritize gameplay over realistic or fancy looking animation/presentation. its not that they cant. the result is their game might look 'less realistic' on video but often feel better and smooth to control when we actually hold the controller. while some of AAA game from western devs could suffer from basic issue like responsiveness and control despite their higher production value.

In 2023 there are more western devs who do consider the importance of tight controls, especially now that the popular thing to make today is a soulslike/action RPG. The genre has to be on point when it comes to these things: Responsiveness and hit boxes. Thus, quite a few American devs are conforming to Japanese standards.

Honestly the biggest offenders when it comes to realism over anything are Rockstar and 2k. I still consider CD Projekt as a eurojank developer who just happened to strike gold, considering they haven’t made many games and they were suddenly thrust into the AAA space to compete in the big leagues way too soon.

Thinking back, the way everyone suddenly and collectively thought that Cyberpunk would not only compete with the best of the best (GTA V) at creating a fully realized city, and also be twice as good, was truly a pipe dream. Even today you’re still better off expecting Rockstar to turn the Oni license into a Cyberpunk competitor one day.

 

[March Climber]

This is what I find baffling every time I read it.

MGS surely has many way to approach enemies. Except the game rewards you when you use the same mechanics over and over, and over.

Use tranq darts like Rambo, you get Rank S. Sneak in the base and clear the area attacking enemies stealthly making no sound: Rank B or C because you took too long.

The game NEVER rewards the player for using different and surprising techniques, it only rewards me when I beat the game as fast as possible.

This is just a fake freedom.

The ranking system in every MGS game was always way more rigid than the game itself, since MGS 2. The fact that you get a lower rank for doing that, doesn’t invalidate the fact that you were able to do that, which a lot of other games would never provide those types of options in the first place.

Your issue is less with the game, and more with the fact that the ranking system was separate from the game’s freedom of choice.

MGSV has the best third person stealth/shooter gameplay and controls of all time because of this level of freedom. There was no moment in MGSV where I said “oh, the game won’t let me do that” when controlling Snake, when nearly every game in existence has that one moment where you either say that or think it to yourself due to some restriction or lack of option. We are so conditioned by this, that we never question it anymore, and yet Kojima and his team decided to tackle that very question. Kojima is a madman who thought of nearly everything the player would think of, and his team is amazing for making sure it all worked seamlessly.

It’s why I’ll always be salty about P.T. I know for a fact he would have taken both the horror genre and Silent Hill to the next level. Unfortunately we never got to see it. Tons of horror devs were inspired by a damn demo. A demo. I could only imagine the full experience.

 

[Kumomeme]

In 2023 there are more western devs who do consider the importance of tight controls, especially now that the popular thing to make today is a soulslike/action RPG. The genre has to be on point when it comes to these things: Responsiveness and hit boxes. Thus, quite a few American devs are conforming to Japanese standards.

Honestly the biggest offenders when it comes to realism over anything are Rockstar and 2k. I still consider CD Projekt as a eurojank developer who just happened to strike gold, considering they haven’t made many games and they were suddenly thrust into the AAA space to compete in the big leagues way too soon.

Thinking back, the way everyone suddenly and collectively thought that Cyberpunk would not only compete with the best of the best (GTA V) at creating a fully realized city, and also be twice as good, was truly a pipe dream. Even today you’re still better off expecting Rockstar to turn the Oni license into a Cyberpunk competitor one day.

yeah the number of western game with good control particularly for melee combat is increasing lately which is good things. games like Ghost of Tsushima pleasantly suprise me as it free from those issue and hopefully the trend will continue. i dont ask for everyone to has soap smooth of control like Platinumgames often do but atleast, make the issue less apparent so the game would be less frustrating to play.

Rockstar has serious issue especially with game like RDR2. hopefully it not gonna be carry toward GTA6 and somehow become another trend toward other developers.

 

[Kumomeme]

Witcher 3 is the greatest game ever made. The combat is heaps of fun if you get into the right builds. Never had any major issues with the movement. Have no interest in MGS games and haven't played them.

this is what it mean when people critisizing the game combat animation. look at the gif. see, it look awesome right? well thats the point.

it LOOK awesome but when we actually hold the controller and control the character is entire different story.
it LOOK awesome because it was made to LOOK awesome but thats the issue as the control not reflect the same level of 'awesomeness' shown of the presentation. it is not something that can be described by simply watching a moving picture.


personally the combat system mechanic is fine. thats not the main problem. the problem is with the control. responsiveness, hit box and weight(both character movement and weapon swing). particularly the responsiveness aspect. strong attack for example is so slow to the point it made me feels sleepy. its like the animation is in control instead of players and there is a delay when the attack hit because of it. it is in game animation issue, not input lag between controller and monitor issue.


the issue is far more apparent to those who used to play game with good control like MGSV, Nier, Souls game or Dragons Dogma for example.

well everyone has their own preferences so thats ok if you feels fine with it.

 

[Exentryk]

the issue is far more apparent to those who used to play game with good control like MGSV, Nier, Souls game or Dragons Dogma for example.

well everyone has their own preferences so thats ok if you feels fine with it.

I agree the movement in Witcher isn't as good as NieR, DD, etc. And that is definitely something they can and should improve on in the next game. But it didn't bother me too much once this was the only game I was playing and got used to it.

Combat is a different matter, and that too has some issues like hit boxes and weird animation choices.

So yeah, there is certainly a lot to improve no doubt. But the combat is still fun enough due to the RPG aspects like builds, spells, etc.

 

[GamesDontSuck]

Mgs5 at its core is a good game. Best gameplay in the series. But for a game that always prided itself on a Hollywood style story and presentation, the lack of just that in MGS5 dampened it.

From impressive in game cutscenes of mgs1 to mgs4 to optional cassette tapes.

 

[Rendered Tangent]

For me, MGS5 just has that special something, that rare ingredient, that elevates it above other great games into something special.

I always judge a game based on how it made me feel the first time I played it, not based on subsequent playthroughs, after updates, but that feeling as I made my way through it the very first time.

In that context, MGS5 was a fantastic experience.

I loved all of it.

The bonkers story, the graphics, the music and sound effects, the U.I, the environments, the enemies, mother base, the Fulton device, the combat, stealth and otherwise, the horse, and other companions...all of it.

It was a pleasure to play and it is, for me, one of the my top games of the last 10 years - and certainly in my top 20 favourite games of all time.

Not necessarily the best, or the most polished (though it is), but one of my favourites.

TW3 is not quite at that level for me, though it's a first rate experience in its own right.