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[John Kowalski]

I have to set up a chrome extension that changes alt right into white supremacists, for historicity's sake

 

[TheRedSnifit]

This guy doesn't seem to think so.

Gamergate is mostly made up of gullible idiots, not the alt-right.

 

[mjp2417]

Yes. But it quickly activated a ton of people who had zero previous interest in politics or culture wars. And it codified the tools of the alt-right, from language, to brigading, to harassment techniques, which within months spread to every single other medium from books to television, and around a year in became the most visible form of online right-wing discourse.

I don't buy it when people say GG was some isolated gaming-only thing. You're being disingenuous, or you never really followed what was happening. Three years ago, communication online looked entirely different pre-GG compared to how it does now.

Before GG, this entire style existed in the limp-dicked corners of the MRA/MGTOW/Red Pill world, completely powerless to affect the discourse. After GG, and all the mainstream coverage it got, everything changed. These people are now the loudest voice in America. GG gave them the template to achieve that.



The Tea Party was firmly engaged in dogwhistle politics. They attracted racists looking for a home, but not really much beyond the usual Southern Strategy pandering the mainstream GOP engages in.

They were also far more interested in actual policy. Unrealistic, idiotic policies, but policies nonetheless. Above all, their goal was to dismantle as much of the federal government as possible, and cut as many taxes as possible including things like the tariffs Trump supporters are so interested in.

There's overlap, sure, but I don't really think the two movements are outgrowths of the same thing. Few Republicans wanted Trump out of the picture during the primaries like Tea Partiers did. They're all about ideological purity.

Great post. Ironically, the only place where you see strenuous denials of the fairly trivial fact that GamerGate is at least a recognizable part of the Trumpist phenomenon (though obviously not the origin) is on video game forums, where we continue to pretend against all evidence to the contrary that culture and culture wars don't actually have anything to do with politics or the world around us. Like, every written primer/analysis on the alt-right accounts for GamerGate.

 

[Kyonashi]

I'll pm a mod about this thread as well.

Look, I've purposely been avoiding the off topic forum because I'm tired of all the politics/arguments, whatever.

Please, leave the freaking politics out of the gaming forum here. There's another forum this can be discussed in.

Not to speak for the mods, but I don't think you'll be successful in the endeavour to get all political threads closed. There are plenty of threads for you to read which I'm sure will steer clear of political talk, but this is important stuff that many of us wish to discuss specifically in the context of games and how things like Gamergate played their part.

You may have the lucky privilege to ignore stuff like this but for many fans of games they don't get to - and discussing art and culture as a mirror to society is very worthwhile. If it's a case of needing a rest/escape, then like I said there are plenty of other threads for you to enjoy. Please don't attempt to stifle the discussion of others.

 

[Zafir]

I'll pm a mod about this thread as well.

Look, I've purposely been avoiding the off topic forum because I'm tired of all the politics/arguments, whatever.

Please, leave the freaking politics out of the gaming forum here. There's another forum this can be discussed in.

Is it really that difficult to you know, not click on a thread?

When it involves something gaming related, I don't see why politics should be barred from the gaming section.

 

[TyrantII]

The Term Alt-Right only serves to normalize them.

Don't use their framing or you already lost the debate. Call a spade a fucking spade.

 

[lazygecko]

Why? It's just criticism. Other people are free to disagree and say why they think otherwise (I have in the past to the extent that I disagree with some of the narrative from cultural studies that she presupposes). According to your logic what you're saying has a chilling effect on speech.

The entire industry has been shackled under the literal censorship hell of publishers and/or marketing departments meddling with the sanctified free speech of creative decisions for commercial products since its conception!

 

[semiconscious]

as long as we all appreciate that 'gamergate', whatever, this past election ultimately had much more to do with hillary losing it than with trump winning it...

 

[ultrazilla]

Not to speak for the mods, but I don't think you'll be successful in the endeavour to get all political threads closed. There are plenty of threads for you to read which I'm sure will steer clear of political talk, but this is important stuff that many of us wish to discuss, specifically in the context of games and how things like Gamergate played their part.

Thanks for the kind reply. I understand your point as well. My fear is that the thread may lead to other political threads creeping up in here but that's what the mods are for. I'll bow out now. Cheers!

 

[God Dayumm]

I know I am going to probably get a lot of hate for this. I am a libertarian, and while I voted for Hillary Clinton, and tend to support Democrats moreso than Republicans, I am somewhat optimistic that some good will probably come out of a Trump administration.

To be clear, I do not support the harassment of anyone. That being said, I believe that Sarkeesian's actions have had a clear and dangerous chilling effect on the constitutional right to freedom of speech. As I have said before in response to defenders of censorship in games. If you do not like the content in a game. Don't buy it. Speak with your wallet, and allow others to do the same. Money should ultimately determine what content is in videogames.

I think you are being unfair on Sarkeesian. I've never seen her advocate censorship, she just brought up things in games she thinks portray women negatively. Her non-violent opinions are not dangerous unlike the ones of those that harassed her. She is entitled to freedom of speech too

 

[BleedOrange]

That's some of it. But probably a rather large portion of them just don't care in a motivated way. The struggle so to speak doesn't intersect with their lives in a very tangible way. Scarcity, difference, and distance can dissuade strong empathy responses. As an example, I don't think when someone goes in and buys a pair of 50 dollar shoes at Walmart that they're thinking to themselves "Fuck those kids in Malaysia" despite the terrible work conditions.

This is a particularly effective dissection of the motivations that drove people to vote for DT, in my opinion.

All the progress that has been made towards equal rights and equal opportunity has been wasted on white blue collar workers who have been enjoying the fruits of those rights and opportunity regardless. That they just so happen to be affected by the stagnation of wages in low-growth-industry jobs that everyone else is just makes them angry that effort is being spent on others instead of themselves. They have no context in which to judge the outcomes of the effort being spent to accomplish this progress for minorities because they probably don't interact with them in any meaningful ways.

 

[KoolAidPitcher]

I can't believe that a line is being drawn between GamerGate and the presidential election. Any reasonable person would think this is QUITE an overreach.

 

[theangrypirate]

Gamergate is just a symptom of a much larger issue. Lots of young and old white men and women feel disenfranchised by the left. They are told they are stupid rednecks for disagreeing with progressives. They are called racist for supporting their party's candidate. They are mocked for their religious views. They are told they are racist for supporting police. In rural parts of the country they are seeing their wealth deteriorate and their white culture erode. I'm not defending anything about the right nor do I feel sorry for them, don't get me wrong. What I see though, is a large group of our country that is feeling left out, forgotten, and voiceless. These people showed up in droves to have their voices heard, for good or for bad. You can call them stupid and clueless and awful, but that doesn't change the fact they voted. GG didn't get Trump elected. Their is certainly a backlash against political correctness and Trump tapped into that to get elected. If progressives want to win again in 4 years they need to figure out how be less abrasive to this group.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

It didn't help, but it was not the cause.

 

[Acerac]

Thanks for the kind reply. I understand your point as well. My fear is that the thread may lead to other political threads creeping up in here but that's what the mods are for. I'll bow out now. Cheers!

Any political thread that involves gaming should be here. Should we have a thread discussing Papers, Please go in to Off-topic?

 

[Kyonashi]

Thanks for the kind reply. I understand your point as well. My fear is that the thread may lead to other political threads creeping up in here but that's what the mods are for. I'll bow out now. Cheers!

I appreciate the measured response. I can totally understand the fear that a place you come to for enjoyment and entertainment may be overrun by very serious talk, but we are lucky to have somewhere with such demarcated lines in that you can absolutely choose to read certain threads and not others, and for the most part, this will allow you to curate your own experience.

I mean we're not even one week post-election and still the number of political threads is probably 1-2% at most, and that will calm down in time. I don't think you have much to worry about in terms of NeoGAF becoming a politically saturated forum.

For anyone who may have a similar viewpoint, this response to a comment on a Dishonored 2 first-thoughts article by the author Heather Alexandra is a concise explanation: http://kotaku.com/1788909344

 

[Deleted member 752119]

If anything they are a symptom of the same underlying problem. But even that is a stretch.

That isn't a stretch at all.

Both are partly reflective of the sexism and racism that's still much more rampant in US society than most thought since it had been driven more underground in recent years as society changed to be less outwardly tolerant of hateful people.

These movements just gave those types more of a voice and audience.

 

[ryseing]

What does this even mean?

His username is a Trump meme reference. Ignore him.

 

[jetjevons]

Clinton won among young voters. Despite what your Gamergate narrative tells you, young men still vote liberal

Majority of gamers aren't young men anymore.

 

[BTA]

There are other people who gained followers through GG that were the start of various Trump supporting conspiracy theories as well.

It's not like GG caused this. I wouldn't say that at all. But GG is definitely tied to it.

 

[ViolentP]

Majority of gamers aren't young men anymore.

I don't know what the majority is, but I would have guessed young men as being it.

 

[Shai-Tan]

There is a difference between having an opinion and disagreeing with speech, and the manipulation of weaknesses in game distribution channels in order to prevent games with content one disagrees with from releasing in the western world. There are only a handful of retail stores and digital distribution channels by which a game can release. Take Dead or Alive Xtreme 3 for example. This game, while offensive to some should have had a right to exist in the United States; however, because of the chilling effect-- and we know this by admission of the game's publisher, it was not released here.

I would take this a step further and say that AO-rated games should be allowed to be released in the United States. Currently, if a game gets an AO rating, it is essentially a death sentence for the game as no store will carry it. I believe stores should have the game behind the counter and available for purchase if one wishes to purchase it, but I digress.

I understand the concerns of those who defend censorship in games; however, I tend to take an intellectual approach which defends the right to freedom of speech in all forms of media.

OK. Maybe I haven't been paying particularly close attention but what is the claim? They made a campaign to make it have an AO rating? Maybe you can fill me in here. If that were true I agree that it would be similar to what the religious right did in the past but even if that were true that doesn't apply to the body of her criticism.

 

[Woorloog]

 

[E92 M3]

There is also a clear line from the release of Jazz Jackrabbit on GBA to the election of Donald Trump.

1. Jaleco releases "Jazz Jackrabbit" on GBA
2. A War Against "Political Correctness" or (PC Culture) Begins
3. Online Publication Breitbart.com and Gamergate Figurehead Milo Yiannopoulos Give
Birth to the Alt-Right Movement
4. Donald Trump Spends Much of Campaign Critiquing Political Correctness
5. The Alt-Right Chooses Donald Trump as their Champion in the Fight Against PC Culture
6. Donald Trump Chooses Breitbart Chairman Steve Bannon as Campaign CEO
7. Donald Trump is Elected President of the United States of America
8. Steve Bannon is Appointed Chief Strategist and Senior Counsoler to the President of the United States of America
9. The Alt-Right Celebrates their Victory

This post is hilarious.

 

[ViolentP]

Pretty sure women comprise a bit over half of gamers at the moment. Though this includes mobile gaming.

If you limit it to console and (gaming?) PC gaming, i would guess men are the majority.

I imagine the arbitrary margin in my head becomes much more narrow when considering mobile. I still think however, that males comprise a majority of gaming. This of course is based on nothing more than my exposure to multiplayer titles, which is a tiny fraction of the entire userbase.

 

[Woorloog]

I imagine the arbitrary margin in my head becomes much more narrow when considering mobile. I still think however, that males comprise a majority of gaming. This of course is based on nothing more than my exposure to multiplayer titles, which is a tiny fraction of the entire userbase.

I think there was a study that concluded women are the majority of gamers. But don't quote me on that...

Gotta do some googling.

 

[ViolentP]

I think there was a study that concluded women are the majority of gamers. But don't quote me on that...

Gotta do some googling.

Wow. That would be quite the shift from the days where gamers were looked at as nothing more than virgins in their parents' basements.

 

[God Dayumm]

Majority of gamers aren't young men anymore.

I think there was a study that concluded women are the majority of gamers. But don't quote me on that...

Gotta do some googling.

About half men and half women. Majority of gamergators might be young men, though, so they are either a very tiny minority or they still vote liberal or not at all.

 

[Woorloog]

Wow. That would be quite the shift from the days where gamers were looked at as nothing more than virgins in their parents' basements.

OK, ESA's 2016 facts (PDF) http://essentialfacts.theesa.com/Essential-Facts-2016.pdf

EDIT Though it seems this is limited to the US?

GENDER
of Game Players
59% male
41% female

BUT

Women age 18 or older represent a significantly greater portion of the
game-playing population (31%) than boys age 18 or younger (17%)


So, i may have been wrong. I swear i've seen something that claimed women are the majority but i will admit i cannot be be sure. Memory is unreliable.
Will keep digging.

EDIT And if this is limited to US, my memory may be about a world-wide thing. Unsure.

 

[Voysa Reezun]

It's more like, and I hate to be un-PC about this, old white people who are trying to hang on to the last vestiges of a society where they didn't have to compete because they were white.

They could get a factory job (and displace some last-hired, first-fired black or brown person) that paid them thirty bucks an hour to bang a wrench on a pipe for eight hours a day with no college degree, and they'd do that shit for thirty years and then get a nice pension and a gold watch.

Now, they find that their whiteness doesn't get them shit in a competitive world, so instead of bettering themselves through education and finding jobs that take actual training and learning and interaction (such as programming or health care or hell, welding if you like to be hands-on), they pitched a fit and voted for the days of banging-on-pipe-with-wrench to come back, even though they're not coming back.

The alt-right is a very small part of the Trump phenomenon here. The alt-right and the Gamergaters are more like Peter Thiel in that they want a post-democratic world where they'd obviously rule the land and have a harem of hot chicks because they would be the Mad Maxes of the New American Free-For-All.

 

[Badmotorfinger]

Gamergate is just a symptom of a much larger issue. Lots of young and old white men and women feel disenfranchised by the left. They are told they are stupid rednecks for disagreeing with progressives. They are called racist for supporting their party's candidate. They are mocked for their religious views. They are told they are racist for supporting police. In rural parts of the country they are seeing their wealth deteriorate and their white culture erode. I'm not defending anything about the right nor do I feel sorry for them, don't get me wrong. What I see though, is a large group of our country that is feeling left out, forgotten, and voiceless. These people showed up in droves to have their voices heard, for good or for bad. You can call them stupid and clueless and awful, but that doesn't change the fact they voted. GG didn't get Trump elected. Their is certainly a backlash against political correctness and Trump tapped into that to get elected. If progressives want to win again in 4 years they need to figure out how be less abrasive to this group.

I agree with this 100%

A working man who loves and lives for his family is being pointed at and called a white supremacist and a racist, even if he isn't. Probably most of those people voted for Obama in the past elections.

 

[ViolentP]

OK, ESA's 2016 facts (PDF) http://essentialfacts.theesa.com/Essential-Facts-2016.pdf

EDIT Though it seems this is limited to the US?

GENDER
of Game Players
59% male
41% female

BUT

Women age 18 or older represent a significantly greater portion of the
game-playing population (31%) than boys age 18 or younger (17%)


So, i may have been wrong. I swear i've seen something that claimed women are the majority but i will admit i cannot be be sure. Memory is unreliable.
Will keep digging.

EDIT And if this is limited to US, my memory may be about a world-wide thing. Unsure.

Even these numbers are impressive enough.

 

[stuminus3]

... did you just quote yourself?

Sure did. Breakin' all the rules, Trumpin' my way through life.

 

[UncleSporky]

Wow. That would be quite the shift from the days where gamers were looked at as nothing more than virgins in their parents' basements.

To be fair, the statement draws no conclusions as to these women's sexual proclivities, nor where they live.

 

[BleedOrange]

It's more like, and I hate to be un-PC about this, old white people who are trying to hang on to the last vestiges of a society where they didn't have to compete because they were white.

They could get a factory job (and displace some last-hired, first-fired black or brown person) that paid them thirty bucks an hour to bang a wrench on a pipe for eight hours a day with no college degree, and they'd do that shit for thirty years and then get a nice pension and a gold watch.

Now, they find that their whiteness doesn't get them shit in a competitive world, so instead of bettering themselves through education and finding jobs that take actual training and learning and interaction (such as programming or health care or hell, welding if you like to be hands-on), they pitched a fit and voted for the days of banging-on-pipe-with-wrench to come back, even though they're not coming back.

The alt-right is a very small part of the Trump phenomenon here. The alt-right and the Gamergaters are more like Peter Thiel in that they want a post-democratic world where they'd obviously rule the land and have a harem of hot chicks because they would be the Mad Maxes of the New American Free-For-All.

Well put. I'm amazed that Trump was able to campaign so effectively on a return-of-manufacturing-to-America platform when it has seemed so fruitless and ineffective in the past. I thought voters were able to realize that the realities of modern engineering precluded that. Even if Trump is able to craft an unfair (in our favor) trade framework that somehow makes it financially feasible to repatriate those jobs, they're just going to go to machines anyways.

 

[Woorloog]

Even these numbers are impressive enough.

Previous studies give slightly different numbers, with the men-women ratio being closer. Didn't check what kind of margin of errors the study had. I would assume the ratio is slowly equalizing overall.

Wikipedia's page for women and video games has a list of national ratios. In Japan, women apparently consist of larger portion of women. Closest to even is Finland with 51-49 (men-women) ratio.

 

[Kurdel]

Gamergate gets way too much credit on this forum. A bunch of nerds whining about games journalism didn't get trump elected.

I don't think you undersand the scope that movement took, and how it evolved from the same 4chan meme machine like the alt right.

 

[The Technomancer]

Yes. But it quickly activated a ton of people who had zero previous interest in politics or culture wars. And it codified the tools of the alt-right, from language, to brigading, to harassment techniques, which within months spread to every single other medium from books to television, and around a year in became the most visible form of online right-wing discourse.

I don't buy it when people say GG was some isolated gaming-only thing. You're being disingenuous, or you never really followed what was happening. Three years ago, communication online looked entirely different pre-GG compared to how it does now.

Before GG, this entire style existed in the limp-dicked corners of the MRA/MGTOW/Red Pill world, completely powerless to affect the discourse. After GG, and all the mainstream coverage it got, everything changed. These people are now the loudest voice in America. GG gave them the template to achieve that.



The Tea Party was firmly engaged in dogwhistle politics. They attracted racists looking for a home, but not really much beyond the usual Southern Strategy pandering the mainstream GOP engages in.

They were also far more interested in actual policy. Unrealistic, idiotic policies, but policies nonetheless. Above all, their goal was to dismantle as much of the federal government as possible, and cut as many taxes as possible including things like the tariffs Trump supporters are so interested in.

There's overlap, sure, but I don't really think the two movements are outgrowths of the same thing. Few Republicans wanted Trump out of the picture during the primaries like Tea Partiers did. They're all about ideological purity.

I agree with all of this

 

[TissueBox]

And by the turn of the decade everyone will be playing Depression Quest. Damn, things really do come full circle.

 

[Kevin Shields]

It's more like, and I hate to be un-PC about this, old white people who are trying to hang on to the last vestiges of a society where they didn't have to compete because they were white.

They could get a factory job (and displace some last-hired, first-fired black or brown person) that paid them thirty bucks an hour to bang a wrench on a pipe for eight hours a day with no college degree, and they'd do that shit for thirty years and then get a nice pension and a gold watch.

Now, they find that their whiteness doesn't get them shit in a competitive world, so instead of bettering themselves through education and finding jobs that take actual training and learning and interaction (such as programming or health care or hell, welding if you like to be hands-on), they pitched a fit and voted for the days of banging-on-pipe-with-wrench to come back, even though they're not coming back.

The alt-right is a very small part of the Trump phenomenon here. The alt-right and the Gamergaters are more like Peter Thiel in that they want a post-democratic world where they'd obviously rule the land and have a harem of hot chicks because they would be the Mad Maxes of the New American Free-For-All.

Let's just be PC when it we decide it's cool to do it.

I actually think the rising rates of Obamacare and Hilary's lack of distinctive message or enthusiasm around her candidacy were high above old whites trying to go back to the old days. Trump should have been easily beatable.

But yes the bringing jobs back economic message went a long way.

 

[ViolentP]

To be fair, the statement draws no conclusions as to these women's sexual proclivities, nor where they live.

A fair point.

 

[friz898]

Let's just be PC when it we decide it's cool to do it.

I actually think the rising rates of Obamacare and Hilary's lack of distinctive message or enthusiasm around her candidacy were high above old whites trying to go back to the old days. Trump should have been easily beatable.

I do think Bernie and/or Biden are positive Trump wouldn't have beat them.

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

I blame kids growing up on 4chan more than anything.

People always like to brush off any notion that it has an influence, but if your main form of communication is shit like /b or /pol of course you're going to come up with terrible views of the world.

 

[Woorloog]

I blame kids growing up on 4chan more than anything.

People always like to brush off any notion that it has an influence, but if your main form of communication is shit like /b or /pol of course you're going to come up with terrible views of the world.

Single source of news is always a bad thing. I remember some mod chastising someone who said they read all their news from NeoGAF.

 

[Leunam]

I would take this a step further and say that AO-rated games should be allowed to be released in the United States. Currently, if a game gets an AO rating, it is essentially a death sentence for the game as no store will carry it. I believe stores should have the game behind the counter and available for purchase if one wishes to purchase it, but I digress.

I understand the concerns of those who defend censorship in games; however, I tend to take an intellectual approach which defends the right to freedom of speech in all forms of media.

Stores choosing not to stock AO rated games has been a thing since well before Sarkesian launched her channel, even before YouTube. Her analysis has nothing to do with that. This is pretty much the market deciding that these kinds of games simply won't sell outside a niche market, and its a decision made by the developers, the publishers, and retailers.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

There is a difference between having an opinion and disagreeing with speech, and the manipulation of weaknesses in game distribution channels in order to prevent games with content one disagrees with from releasing in the western world. There are only a handful of retail stores and digital distribution channels by which a game can release. Take Dead or Alive Xtreme 3 for example. This game, while offensive to some should have had a right to exist in the United States; however, because of the chilling effect-- and we know this by admission of the game's publisher, it was not released here.

I would take this a step further and say that AO-rated games should be allowed to be released in the United States. Currently, if a game gets an AO rating, it is essentially a death sentence for the game as no store will carry it. I believe stores should have the game behind the counter and available for purchase if one wishes to purchase it, but I digress.

I understand the concerns of those who defend censorship in games; however, I tend to take an intellectual approach which defends the right to freedom of speech in all forms of media.

Stores not carrying AO games is not an issue of censorship. Retailers choose not to carry AO games. You can force them to anymore than you can force Target to carry porn films.

 

[entremet]

Possibly?

But I don't see a direct clear line. It's more fuzzy. Romney got more votes than Trump, so I'm not sure how many voters were activated to vote by GG or the Alt Right.

 

[petethepanda]

It's way more than a straight line that's led to the current 'alt right' white nationalist movement, but it's probably fair to say that Gamergate was one of many bullet points along the way.

 

[djtiesto]

Ehh, this is a total stretch. Plenty of the things in the OP have been around for far longer than Gamergate. Being old enough to pay attention to the news in the 90's and listen to blowhards like Limbaugh, there was the whole anti "Political Correctness" movement even back then (hell I remember watching this movie growing up).

The 'alt-right' has been around for a long while, even if there was no name for the movement (maybe "paleocon", which was used to describe people like Pat Buchannan, though it could be that paleocon and alt-right have some vague differences?). Pick up artist blogs, MRAs, Roissy/RooshV/Steve Sailer/Brietbart, all existed and were posting regularly before Depression Quest even got released.

Gamergate (is this even really an organized movement anymore? tbh I don't hear much about it outside from it being a GAF boogeyman) is just the sinister side of internet democracy at work. The reason why Trump won has nothing to do with 'ethics in games journalism', it has to do with one opponent appealing to the 'silent majority', victims of globalization, protectionists and anti-immigration, and his opponent completely taking her base for granted and running a terrible, tone-deaf campaign.

Spoiler

Bernie supporter who voted for Hillary in the general, here.

 

[ReaperXL7]

I do think we need to stop holding "angry white men" as the sole gate keepers to a lot of these issues. I've seen many lay the blame on White men for the rise of Trump despite the polls showing that there were many women and minority voters who did vote for and support him.

I say this as someone who is a minority and I think if you want to address and begin to fix these issues you need to incorporate as many of the factors involved in enabling them as possible and try to find constructive ways of doing so. I also think laying the blame on gamergate is shortsighted at best though it was most likely a contributing factor.