those types?
I said 'sometimes it takes the bigger man to admit they're wrong', you want me to specifically go to twitter and find examples...
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Trevor Noah Under fire for racist and americanized remark about the World Cup Winner France
- Thread starter Dunki
- Start date
I said 'sometimes it takes the bigger man to admit they're wrong', you want me to specifically go to twitter and find examples...
Papa
Banned
You’re overthinking this. It was a rhetorical question to demonstrate my point that apologies and social media don’t mix.
I didn't mention social media in my post. Anyway, I think we're probably on pretty similar pages, in the same book at least, and I need to go to bed
RokkanStoned
Member
I didn't find anything he said over the line in the first clip, though his response was terrible imo, because he's doomed to fall within a very weird limited view of "origin", in trying to determine "also african" by referring to genealogy or by appealing to "hey us blacks were celebrating". He's talking past the point of the french ambassador, which is that these are french people (only 2 were not born in France, so his weird example about an African immigrant doesn't make sense). Sure, you can find their roots in Africa, but that's irrelevant, you'll find my roots in ashkenazi jews in Europe, in Germany, in Sweden and the further back I'll split up further and further. But I'm actually Norwegian. It feels like what Trevor Noah wants to do is refer to their blackness, which is cringeworthy, as if he's vicariously living through their skin color.
There's also a problem trying to split up a person into cultural/ethnic origins, which is that either people with less origins are worse off, or people with mixed origins are split between only parts of each world. This is felt by a lot of kids from immigrants, where they are taught everything of your country's culture, but they're being subverted with mixes of subcultural impulses in the form of their parents traditions and a sense of being different due to your family's self-identification with their heritage and due to outwards signs of "difference" (which is reinforced by everyone recognizing the difference and treating you differently because of it). Also African-American is a terrible term imo. Norwegian-American is also a terrible term, as these people are really just americans, with an imitation of Norwegian culture and traditions that they're sticking to. Just small artifacts of heritage.
There's also a problem trying to split up a person into cultural/ethnic origins, which is that either people with less origins are worse off, or people with mixed origins are split between only parts of each world. This is felt by a lot of kids from immigrants, where they are taught everything of your country's culture, but they're being subverted with mixes of subcultural impulses in the form of their parents traditions and a sense of being different due to your family's self-identification with their heritage and due to outwards signs of "difference" (which is reinforced by everyone recognizing the difference and treating you differently because of it). Also African-American is a terrible term imo. Norwegian-American is also a terrible term, as these people are really just americans, with an imitation of Norwegian culture and traditions that they're sticking to. Just small artifacts of heritage.
Texas Pride
Banned
Noah made the comment to diminish France's victory in the world cup. Make stupid comments get stupid responses. Being American I don't care either way but I can understand why people would be offended.
Sakura Doritos
Member
Trevor Noah is African. So I don't know why people are calling this an Americanized view unless he didn't come up with that joke himself.
Also, while the comment was cheeky and not really that funny I find it hard to be outraged. How am I going to stroke my diamond collared, white Persian cat and post about outrage culture on the internet if I get too outraged over what a muppet says.
Comedy is comedy. If a joke falls flat let it be.
Also, while the comment was cheeky and not really that funny I find it hard to be outraged. How am I going to stroke my diamond collared, white Persian cat and post about outrage culture on the internet if I get too outraged over what a muppet says.
Comedy is comedy. If a joke falls flat let it be.
Thelonelykoopa
Member
If you want to be technical he not even a first to say it. it was a theme throughout the world cup to label the French victories as ones for Africa like I remember seeing this article weeks ago http://www.goal.com/en-us/amp/news/...illed-by-les-bleus/131vvy43vo14r1dr0sco37w5ih
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led4lyfe
Member
I work with a lot of people from a wide range of different African counteries and they all cheered for France after the group stage because there was no African team left. One guy from Cameroon actually cried from joy during the post match celebration.
Seems like they took the French victory as one of their own since they were so heavily represented in it. Don’t see why Noah is being attacked for this
Seems like they took the French victory as one of their own since they were so heavily represented in it. Don’t see why Noah is being attacked for this
Conservatives get mad they get called racists all the time and once they have a chance to call someone from the left that they’ll jump at it even if they are grasping at straws. You see it here with some conservative posters, one thread jumping through hoops to defend a racist and state that the word has lost all meaning! And then they’ll jump in here and call out Noah’s racism when it pertains to congratulating a team on winning the World Cup.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
This whole ridiculous outrage circle jerk is a classic example of people assuming the best interpretation of their own comments while also assuming the worst intentions of the other side and then getting too easily triggered when the inevitable miscommunication occurs.
Papa
Banned
Wrong.
You're struggling to participate because you don't understand nuance or abstraction and put out ridiculous interpretations like this.
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Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Love Trevor. I'm glad Comedy Central has a history of letting the hosts of the Daily Show do their thing with no interference. People are dreaming if they think they can use this as an excuse to fire him lol He isn't going anywhere.
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Sakura Doritos
Member
No commedian should get fired over offensive jokes. They should have never been hired if the company was worried about that. When jokes are censored we're at a precipice. I am ok with a company not renewing contracts though. That is not the same as firing.
bitbydeath
Member
France has the right idea on this.
Who cares what skin colour you are.
You have citizenship to a certain country then that is your home and that is how you reach equality.
Who cares what skin colour you are.
You have citizenship to a certain country then that is your home and that is how you reach equality.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
They aren't gonna do that either. Trevor is killing it. They won't get rid of him over a single poorly received joke. Otherwise Jon Stewart would have been fired a year or two into his tenure.
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5secondrulesucks
Banned
jon stewart sucks. hes one of the most inoffensive people around and trevor noah is on the same boat. as long as their politics line up theyll be fine
If you think Noah is racist that’s fine Matt, that’s your interpretation of what racism is. Not mine since I operate from a different definition.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
lol okay
Papa
Banned
Papa
Banned
This post?
I'm dismissive because you (and many others) always start at the conclusion of racism and work your way backwards. Everything revolves around race and there can never be any other explanation. As I've said before, most conservatives aren't complaining about being called racist; they're complaining about double standards and hypocrisy. The reason they're calling out Noah is because they think he's being hypocritical.
Your logic is so one-dimensional that you will probably assume I'm a conservative because I'm defending them in this instance.
I'm dismissive because you (and many others) always start at the conclusion of racism and work your way backwards. Everything revolves around race and there can never be any other explanation. As I've said before, most conservatives aren't complaining about being called racist; they're complaining about double standards and hypocrisy. The reason they're calling out Noah is because they think he's being hypocritical.
Your logic is so one-dimensional that you will probably assume I'm a conservative because I'm defending them in this instance.
It’s a thread about racism and my conclusion was Noah wasn’t racist. You keep bringing your little grudges from topic to topic. It’s annoying for all involved.
5secondrulesucks
Banned
pfft please. just because the title say racism doesnt mean the person who is made knows what actual racism is.
Papa
Banned
Wrong again: it's a thread about alleged racism.
Stop consistently missing the point and I'll stop criticising you for it. It's not a grudge.
What point did I miss?
Papa
Banned
Going back to your original post that I quoted:
The first missed point is that conservatives in general are not upset about being called racist and constantly on the lookout for a chance to get one back on the other side as you suggest. They are calling out Noah because they see it as a case of hypocrisy.
The second missed point is that the people you claim were jumping through hoops to defend a racist (https://www.neogaf.com/threads/lets-discuss-this-punch-in-chicago.1463755/) were not defending the racist act. They were saying that violence is not the solution to words, no matter how egregious. Those are completely different things.
I already explained this in detail above, so chalk that up as a third.
Lupingosei
Banned
There are three important points here:
First
They players themselves don't like it, so that should have been the end of it. But of course who cares what they players think.
Second
This should have been a triumph to show how France can grow when everybody works together. Instead the right is claiming that they were not really French because of a French nationalist idea and people like Trevor are claiming that they are not really French, based on a African nationalist idea.
He only made it worse, after tweeting that picture and implying that the world cup was stolen from Africa somehow.
Third
The whole topic is peak level for hypocrites. Look at ResetEra first they ban somebody for the same joke (reason racism). Noah makes the same joke, they defend him, edit the ban reason of the first guy and continue like nothing happened. Asking somebody where they are from because of skin color is considered a micro-aggression, but implying that people are not really French, because of skin color is ok. Implying a black person is not American is racist, telling French players that they are Africans because of heritage, somehow is ok. And while you should listen what people involved have to say about this, somehow the players comments are not that interesting anymore, if they not share the same opinion as the people who know best.
First
They players themselves don't like it, so that should have been the end of it. But of course who cares what they players think.
Second
This should have been a triumph to show how France can grow when everybody works together. Instead the right is claiming that they were not really French because of a French nationalist idea and people like Trevor are claiming that they are not really French, based on a African nationalist idea.
He only made it worse, after tweeting that picture and implying that the world cup was stolen from Africa somehow.
Third
The whole topic is peak level for hypocrites. Look at ResetEra first they ban somebody for the same joke (reason racism). Noah makes the same joke, they defend him, edit the ban reason of the first guy and continue like nothing happened. Asking somebody where they are from because of skin color is considered a micro-aggression, but implying that people are not really French, because of skin color is ok. Implying a black person is not American is racist, telling French players that they are Africans because of heritage, somehow is ok. And while you should listen what people involved have to say about this, somehow the players comments are not that interesting anymore, if they not share the same opinion as the people who know best.
Woo-Fu
Banned
People can you know, be more than one thing at a time. It is possible to be a citizen of France and of African descent.
While jokes of this sort are often used disparagingly towards the players and the team itself, in this case I'd say it is more of a case of Noah saying good on the Africans---who are French citizens while being of African descent. If you've decided that Noah is a racist simply for identifying with other people of full/partial African descent then you have a problem.
Whether that makes for a good joke or not is entirely in the eye of the beholder.
While jokes of this sort are often used disparagingly towards the players and the team itself, in this case I'd say it is more of a case of Noah saying good on the Africans---who are French citizens while being of African descent. If you've decided that Noah is a racist simply for identifying with other people of full/partial African descent then you have a problem.
Whether that makes for a good joke or not is entirely in the eye of the beholder.
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ruvikx
Banned
Wrong. It's just football, i.e. irrelevant in terms of long term social & national cohesion/prospects. Did Spain & Italy (with their all-white teams) symbolize anything at all back in 2006 & 2010 when they won the world cup? nope. Trevor Noah, the nationalist right, the left & apparently yourself as well (based upon the above comment) all make the same mistake: politize the world cup & search for something deeper within a mere sports victory.
What did France's world cup win really signify? They have a great formation centre at youth level & this time (unlike previous editions between 1998 & 2018) have several world class talents in key positions which made the difference (Griezmann & M'bappé). Also, their manager (Didier Deschamps) is a prior world cup winner himself ergo the marriage between experience & talent made their win likely (add the fact Germany, Spain, Italy, Holland, Argentina & Brazil are all below par right now).
It's a sports victory which will result in diddly-squat in terms of France "growing when everybody works together". Just ask Brazil, i.e. five time world cup winner & socially broken.
Lupingosei
Banned
I'm gonna have to stop you right there. There is data showing exactly what you are denying. Usually sports victories like a World Cup have a huge impact, even on politics. In an election year it is more likely that a president is reelected, if the national team was successful at the world cup. At least in Europe. A victory like that has a very strong impact on a society.
Sport was always part of politics. That is why even the communists used their athletes for propaganda. Women played football in Europe and Baseball in the US during the World Wars to keep the civil society running and it was part of the emancipation.
Implying that a victory like the World Cup has no political or social components is just not true. There is just too much data involved and to many books written about it. This victory will be used to transport a message, like pretty much any sport victory was before. Why do you think people still talk about Jessie Owens, Lake Placid or Muhammad Ali’s fight in Zaire. Sport stars are not only idols but also role models and there is politics involved each and every time.
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It shows also on political level how diverse France is. how these people born in France are totally integrated into their homecountry. How they feel that this is their home and how they identify not as black or African or whatever but as french because that is their home country
GTP_Daverytimes
Member
It's a joke, and it is an understandable one. However because it is something that the right wing in France use to discredit blacks in the country I can understand why many of the French players do not agree. Regardless, I think Trevor hit the nail in the head when he says that if you accomplish something you automatically become French but when you are a criminal you are regarded as an immigrant.
Lupingosei
Banned
But the joke also implies, that they are not "real" French. It implies, that their skin color somehow makes them different. Even if you want to celebrate that, you still tell people, we look at you in a different way. It also reduces their individuality to their heritage. They won, because they were the better team and played the most efficient form of football at the World Cup. Everything else just diminishes their triumph, even if it is not originated from a bad place.
ruvikx
Banned
France - because this is the country which just won the world cup - has been down this road before, i.e. back in 1998 there was a huge wave of propaganda surrounding the "black, blanc, beur" (black, white, butter, in reference to the skin color of the players) football team which won the world cup. Politicians, media, celebrities & the entire establishment were convinced it was France's multicultural birth moment as a new, solidified united country.
What was the net result? In 2002, Jean-Marie Le Pen (FN) reached the second round of the presidential election after knocking out the socialist candidate. In 2007, Nicolas Sarkozy (i.e. Mister "nettoyer La Courneuve au Kärcher", aka he promised to clean the immigrant inner city with a high pressure water cleaner) easily won the presidential after defeating the socialists. When the socialists actually won (in 2012), the FN rose even more & now sits at 11 million (!!!) voters. Wowzers, whoop-de-doo France 1998, you really fixed the nation!
The examples you cited were also merely candy for historians & politicians, i.e. their actual real effect on the people on the ground is minimal. Sport is bread & circuses, i.e. a convenient distraction for the 'plebs' - hence why politicians love a good world cup win (see Macron's embarrassing antics last weekend).
They're multimillionaires who mostly play for foreign clubs & pay their taxes in foreign countries. They're not symbols of integration, they're just good soccer/football players.
They were not rich as kids. It has shown how good education etc helps people to integrate. These players are role models for many children be it black or white. And they can boost their integration as well. If you would be all Erdogan is my president (Özil) you will set a very bad example to encourage an dictator.
I think have no idea how much influence these stars have.
ruvikx
Banned
They're the modern equivalent of The Beatles... with a small caveat: their stardom is destroyed the moment they lose a major tournament or play badly (once again, France has been down that path in 2002 when its former stars were mocked when they lost in the first round of the world cup). They're only 'role models' insofar as they won. It's absolutely not a solid foundation to build integration upon. I also stand in disbelief at the lack of self awareness from people using this as a political message (i.e. with regards to the majority black French team), because the moment a team like Croatia wins (they came seriously close), kaboom, following the same logic we'll hear screams about "all-white is all-right!". Is that what people want? i.e. a society's worth & self-respect based upon the victories of their racial lookalikes in a football team?
It's a road to disaster. French banlieues need fixing from top to bottom (the rioting last weekend was symptomatic of the problem) & the situation is not helped by footballers being dangled in front of them as 'role models'.
Papa
Banned
I disagree. Sport is one of the best ways of bridging the cultural divide. It’s something with a pre-defined set of rules that anyone can participate in and no one is excluded because they can’t speak the language or understand the culture. It really is one of the greatest ways of unifying people who have extreme differences in other areas.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
That is a positive yes, and I completely agree with you.
It is also formed as a distraction for the masses (which I too am guilty of)...
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ruvikx
Banned
This is the talk of a politician or a journalist. I already gave real life examples (in France itself) vis-à-vis 'why' the situation on the ground since 1998 (when they first won the world cup) dictates a very different conclusion. Immigrants in this country were arguably better integrated & more French before the world cup victory 20 years ago. Since then, politicians merely used it as a distraction & threw images of Zidane in everyone's face whilst the country went to shit for everyone.
It's almost like people believe they just have to repeat this stuff ad-infinitum ("sport bridges the cultural divide!") to make it magically happen. It doesn't.
Papa
Banned
lol, I’m no politician or journalist.
And yeah, it does bridge the divide. I had nothing to do with the Indian kids at school until we started playing cricket together, built friendships, and found other common interests.
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Papa
Banned
That is a positive yes, and I completely agree with you.
It is also formed as a distraction for the masses (which I too m guilty of)...
Sometimes the masses need to be distracted.
ruvikx
Banned
There are no Indian kids in France, so unless you believe there's a "one size fits all" theory here, it's not comparable. I'll just leave the discussion at that & allow the coming months to show the real picture. The honeymoon period will last a few weeks & then voilà, back to the divided French Republic with all its messy political, social, cultural & economic incoherence.
100% agree with your point of view. Great post.
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Papa
Banned
Why can my example from Australia not apply elsewhere?
Is anyone saying that winning a World Cup will solve all cultural integration issues overnight?
Kadayi
Banned
He only made it worse, after tweeting that picture and implying that the world cup was stolen from Africa somehow.
I suspect if it were the US grabbing gold medals from slave ships I doubt it would have gotten so many likes
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
There are three important points here:
First
They players themselves don't like it, so that should have been the end of it. But of course who cares what they players think.
Second
This should have been a triumph to show how France can grow when everybody works together. Instead the right is claiming that they were not really French because of a French nationalist idea and people like Trevor are claiming that they are not really French, based on a African nationalist idea.
He only made it worse, after tweeting that picture and implying that the world cup was stolen from Africa somehow.
Third
The whole topic is peak level for hypocrites. Look at ResetEra first they ban somebody for the same joke (reason racism). Noah makes the same joke, they defend him, edit the ban reason of the first guy and continue like nothing happened. Asking somebody where they are from because of skin color is considered a micro-aggression, but implying that people are not really French, because of skin color is ok. Implying a black person is not American is racist, telling French players that they are Africans because of heritage, somehow is ok. And while you should listen what people involved have to say about this, somehow the players comments are not that interesting anymore, if they not share the same opinion as the people who know best.
The far left Libpocracy shines again on Era, lol.
People used to believe America really was a special, maybe even holy place and you were blessed to live here.
But as time went on that patriotism became to be seen more as a joke, and America became more cynical and "woke", America changed from " successful experiment, always getting better," to " sexist, racist, white supremacist, patriarchy, etc etc blah blah blah"
'America was never great' is now a popular saying. (And knowing how my generation, will easily get more popular)The unity is this country is practically non-existent, and it's been like this for a while. Many Americans have no Civic pride. America is proof that multiculturalism will always ultimately fail, but we did have a good run at points.
KonradLaw
Member
Plus I don't think most of the black players are children of refugees.There are three important points here:
First
They players themselves don't like it, so that should have been the end of it. But of course who cares what they players think.
Second
This should have been a triumph to show how France can grow when everybody works together. Instead the right is claiming that they were not really French because of a French nationalist idea and people like Trevor are claiming that they are not really French, based on a African nationalist idea.
He only made it worse, after tweeting that picture and implying that the world cup was stolen from Africa somehow.
Third
The whole topic is peak level for hypocrites. Look at ResetEra first they ban somebody for the same joke (reason racism). Noah makes the same joke, they defend him, edit the ban reason of the first guy and continue like nothing happened. Asking somebody where they are from because of skin color is considered a micro-aggression, but implying that people are not really French, because of skin color is ok. Implying a black person is not American is racist, telling French players that they are Africans because of heritage, somehow is ok. And while you should listen what people involved have to say about this, somehow the players comments are not that interesting anymore, if they not share the same opinion as the people who know best.
Vicetrailia
Member
America is doing better than ever before on multiculturalism, and is more open than almost anyone else. Trump is slowing the progress slightly. I think your problem lies in with what people can say, versus the actual progress.
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Sakura Doritos
Member
I don’t think they will either. It was a general comment. I think the guy is a hack btw. I don’t find his new stuff funny at all. But if people do more power to them.