Trump Posted His Tax Reform Policy

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Syrus said:
We need a plan like this. Me and my wife make 75-85k a year and two kids and we lose about 30% of our income to taxes and dont get crap back a year.

Wed pay a little bit less with a plan like this.

Tax reform NEEDS to happen especially for middle class. We are drowned in taxes
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You make that much together or each? Our household is only a little more (together) and I'm not paying anywhere close to 30k in federal income tax
 
TrounceX said:
Who knows. Forums are a terrible medium for this kind of discussion and I was reminded tonight why I don't post often.

I really don't care what kind of category you want to put my income level in. Doesn't mean anything to me except now, 2 hours later, we've come full circle and most seem to agree that myself (and probably many others) pay a significant amount in taxes, and that it can be alarming to someone who just stared making a decently low, less than average, not a career, not middle class, and especially not a real paycheck.

The only things I've learned are that I am not middle class, should be embarrassed, should be thankful, should get a real job, should try adult stuff then get back to you, should get educated, and most of all should not mention cutting taxes around AlteredBeast or MrGerbil at any point in the future again.

Good night GAF.
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You came in and said you were paying 1/3 of your paycheck in taxes. Even if that's true - and many here are suspect that that burden is specifically taxes, rather than taxes + other payroll deductions, like the union dues you're likely paying - only a fraction of that is federal income tax, which is the tax Trump's plan addresses. If you're including payroll tax, state income tax, and health-care, I guess I could see you approaching that number, but even still, only a little of what you are paying in taxes is addressed by Trump's current plan. And that plan, even if admirable in some respects, seems quite flawed, in terms of staying revenue-neutral.

Not to mention, you came in saying that yours is the perspective that is based in "real-world experience" of the tax code, implying that those disagreeing with you must be younger, naive, and inexperienced. Notwithstanding the condescension of this, it falls in line with an old conservative canard about "liberals being young and full of heart, conservatives being old and smart", a notion designed to invalidate liberal opinions by associating them with youthful naivety yet which has actually been studied and shown to be untrue, as people's voting patterns tend to stay consistent throughout their lives based on who they voted for in their first election.

Edit: People do need to do a better job of distinguishing between federal income tax and total tax burden. It's probably not uncommon to lose 30ish% of your income to taxes in total, but you have to include things like property taxes, state sales taxes, utilities taxes, payroll taxes, health insurance, state income taxes, etc., but all of those are handled separately, and only a few have anything to do with the federal government.

Edit: 40k for an individual is absolutely middle-class, in most places.
 
Zophar said:
15% corporate tax seems way too low.
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Think 15% is the average in Europe, not that low.

EDIT: My problem with it though is that some of it isn't explained very well & that the deficit would increase since the gubmint would prolly be taking in less revenue. But then again the current system does not encourage the government to be fiscally responsible with the taxes they collect and that is mainly where the problem lies.
 
MikeDown said:
But then again the current system does not encourage the government to be fiscally responsible with the taxes they collect and that is mainly where the problem lies.
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If by the current system you mean a free-market capitalist economy, then this is true. Kind of.
 
MWS Natural said:
At 40k he would only be middle class in two states in the US:

http://twocents.lifehacker.com/the-salary-required-to-be-middle-class-in-every-state-1695393156
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"Charitable Trust defines it as households that earn between 67 and 200 percent of a state’s median income."

What a load of arbitrary horseshit this is. Defining the middle class solely by its relation to the median income is absurd, and if you want to break it up by incomes break it up into quintiles or quadriles (20%/25% groupings). The middle class is much better understood as a combination of socioeconomic factors like upbringing, education, type of labor, autonomy in labor, etc.

"Middle class" has always been a nonsense phrase and what's been included has always shifted around willy nilly depending on who's using it. Personally I would say that the middle class includes educators, engineers, scientists, lawyers, doctors, labor supervisors, etc. Looking at that group you quickly realize you could have people making $40k all the way up to $1M, but they'd all be performing the same type of work (though at varying degrees of skill). You could be a line worker in a factory making $60k, but I wouldn't necessarily deem that a middle class job because you have zero autonomy in your work, and little education requirements.

Just considering that you can see it doesn't fucking matter what class you call people when you're talking about income. Just break wage earners up into groups of 20%s and analyze it like that if you want to consider tax policy.
 
TrounceX said:
Who knows. Forums are a terrible medium for this kind of discussion and I was reminded tonight why I don't post often.

I really don't care what kind of category you want to put my income level in. Doesn't mean anything to me except now, 2 hours later, we've come full circle and most seem to agree that myself (and probably many others) pay a significant amount in taxes, and that it can be alarming to someone who just stared making a decently low, less than average, not a career, not middle class, and especially not a real paycheck.

The only things I've learned are that I am not middle class, should be embarrassed, should be thankful, should get a real job, should try adult stuff then get back to you, should get educated, and most of all should not mention cutting taxes around AlteredBeast or MrGerbil at any point in the future again.

Good night GAF.
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Don't let the GAF bullies get you down. If you say you're paying 1/3 of your check in taxes, you'd know better than them. And you probably are, it's just that federal isn't the only thing being taken out. It's also State, Social Security, Medicare, and probably whatever health coverage you've elected. Certain people just started jumping on you when a quick analysis of your situation would have been super.

If you're making $40k as a single person, chances are you're doing just fine. You're pretty clearly "middle class" for a household of one -- that "one" being you. Maybe in the heart of a metropolis, you'd struggle. In a rural area, you'd almost be considered wealthy. It's called cost of living and just because someone on a forum makes fun of your wage doesn't mean they themselves aren't paying a ton more in personal expenses like rent, food, gas, etc.

In my state, two people working full time on minimum wage qualify as middle class according to that lifehacker link. I mean, just think about that. You make double that alone and you're not middle class? FFS. Just consider the perspective, especially when being told how you're not by some dude claiming to make $50 per hour.
 
Trump's economic plan isn't as crazy as I initially thought it was going to be. If he could effectively raise taxes on corporations higher, the math would work out in his favor.

TrounceX said:
You guys are the ones who should be embarrassed. That's a decent entry level wage where I'm from. How is it embarrassing? I just got out of college this Spring and I worked hard to get this job. You guys are super harsh, my goodness.

I was just making the point that it's a reality check seeing 33% of your income go into taxes every paycheck. This is a lot more than I was paying before. And then the top 1% pay less in taxes as a percent of income than I do. That's a joke.

I do believe that cutting middle class taxes will result in economic growth and I made the example that I would like to buy a house but am not quite there financially. Apparently this is controversial and deserved of ridicule. I'll make sure to stay away from these threads and you pretentious fucks from now on. Carry on now.
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TrounceX said:
Luckily for me it's a union job for the government with plenty of stability and potential for growth. I have short term and long term disability insurance plus FMLA if needed. And free healthcare, and a pension, and deferred comp, and a lot of other things I'm still figuring out.

None of this changes the fact that I still had sticker shock when I saw how much money gets taken out every paycheck. I have debt to repay, things to do, a life to live. 1/3 is too much. Sorry you don't agree.
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Link said:
You have all that and are still complaining about paying too much in taxes? You are definitely new to life.
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Thank you. This guy is fucking delusional. Or a perfect example of the type of people that barely get by in college.
 
TrounceX said:
Luckily for me it's a union job for the government with plenty of stability and potential for growth. I have short term and long term disability insurance plus FMLA if needed. And free healthcare, and a pension, and deferred comp, and a lot of other things I'm still figuring out.

None of this changes the fact that I still had sticker shock when I saw how much money gets taken out every paycheck. I have debt to repay, things to do, a life to live. 1/3 is too much. Sorry you don't agree.
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Maybe you should figure all these things out before complaining what's missing from your paycheck.

Again it's entirely possible you're having too much withheld too.
 
The idea of a flat tax on businesses is asinine, especially one that is limited to 15%. Also that right-wing "let's call the estate tax the death tax" nonsense out in full force.
 
Snowman Prophet of Doom said:
You came in and said you were paying 1/3 of your paycheck in taxes. Even if that's true - and many here are suspect that that burden is specifically taxes, rather than taxes + other payroll deductions, like the union dues you're likely paying - only a fraction of that is federal income tax, which is the tax Trump's plan addresses. If you're including payroll tax, state income tax, and health-care, I guess I could see you approaching that number, but even still, only a little of what you are paying in taxes is addressed by Trump's current plan. And that plan, even if admirable in some respects, seems quite flawed, in terms of staying revenue-neutral.

Not to mention, you came in saying that yours is the perspective that is based in "real-world experience" of the tax code, implying that those disagreeing with you must be younger, naive, and inexperienced. Notwithstanding the condescension of this, it falls in line with an old conservative canard about "liberals being young and full of heart, conservatives being old and smart", a notion designed to invalidate liberal opinions by associating them with youthful naivety yet which has actually been studied and shown to be untrue, as people's voting patterns tend to stay consistent throughout their lives based on who they voted for in their first election.

Edit: People do need to do a better job of distinguishing between federal income tax and total tax burden. It's probably not uncommon to lose 30ish% of your income to taxes in total, but you have to include things like property taxes, state sales taxes, utilities taxes, payroll taxes, health insurance, state income taxes, etc., but all of those are handled separately, and only a few have anything to do with the federal government.

Edit: 40k for an individual is absolutely middle-class, in most places.
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Agree with most of this. A ton of stuff comes out of your paycheck, learn what they are before commenting on a specific portion.
 
Glass Joe said:
Don't let the GAF bullies get you down. If you say you're paying 1/3 of your check in taxes, you'd know better than them. And you probably are, it's just that federal isn't the only thing being taken out. It's also State, Social Security, Medicare, and probably whatever health coverage you've elected. Certain people just started jumping on you when a quick analysis of your situation would have been super.
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I think you're mistaken. I laughed at the dude, because he's implying NeoGAF is full of people who never have a job in the very original post that started this dogpiling, specifically people who didn't think Tax Cut is answer to everything.

TrounceX said:
After this and the very reasonable interview on 60 minutes last night, I'm actually starting to like Trump. At the very least he is night and day better than any of the other Republican nominees, that much is obvious.

And I'm sorry if this sounds selfish, but as a middle class citizen I desperately want lower taxes. Just wait until you get your first real paycheck at $20+ / hour and you will understand. The government taking 1/3 of every paycheck is a cruel joke. I'd literally be in the process of buying a house right now if my taxes weren't so high.
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massoluk said:
I think you're mistaken. I laughed at the dude, because he's implying NeoGAF is full of people who never have a job in the very original post that started this dogpiling, specifically people who didn't think Tax Cut is answer to everything.
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To be fair, he has to pay... GASP, UNION DUES! All he gets is premium heath coverage.

I don't think he understand how payroll taxes work and that is for the most part a state thing.
 
massoluk said:
I think you're mistaken. I laughed at the dude, because he's implying NeoGAF is full of people who never have a job in the very original post that started this dogpiling, specifically people who didn't think Tax Cut is answer to everything.
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Why isn't that a safe bet? Why is that an insult? Doesn't GAF have a lot of members under 18?

Don't know the demographics myself, but as the focus here is on gaming I'd guess GAF was home to people of all ages, from young gamers to old farts and everything inbetween.

Just really surprised that comment raised so much ire. Reads as completely benign to my eyes.
 
massoluk said:
I think you're mistaken. I laughed at the dude, because he's implying NeoGAF is full of people who never have a job in the very original post that started this dogpiling, specifically people who didn't think Tax Cut is answer to everything.
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I didn't go back far back enough to see the entire back & forth. Saw his reply, clicked on the previous statement and saw a following one. Maybe he was baiting people but a lot of people would love a $40k / year job so I was a bit insulted when a different poster insinuated that a single person making that was poor.
 
Glass Joe said:
I didn't go back far back enough to see the entire back & forth. Saw his reply, clicked on the previous statement and saw a following one. Maybe he was baiting people but a lot of people would love a $40k / year job so I was a bit insulted when a different poster insinuated that a single person making that was poor.
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40K a year is about the minimum a college educated graduate could stand to make just entering the workforce. He said he just entered the workforce and couldn't afford to buy a home(as if he was expected to just be able to afford a home right out of college).

He's naive at best.
 
DoktorEvil said:
40K a year is about the minimum a college educated graduate could stand to make just entering the workforce. He said he just entered the workforce and couldn't afford to buy a home(as if he was expected to just be able to afford a home right out of college).

He's naive at best.
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Really depends on the profession. As an accountant I started at 43 in a mid size city. My friend who was an engineer wit only a 4 year degree started at 74 in the same city.
 
AlteredBeast said:
If you are making $20/hr, you aren't earning dick and the tax rates for that income is more than fair. The American mindset on taxes is poison. We need to be paying more. You need to be paying more. I am a middle class father of three. We are a single income house with what feels like nothing leftover month after month, but even I know I don't pay enough in taxes.
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We need to be paying more taxes? To go towards what exactly? The 600 billion military budget that practically demolishes every other budget?
 
backslashbunny said:
I addressed this is in my edit, but I guess it really depends on what you mean by corporate.
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If a corporation makes over $335,000 income, it is not subject to any marginal income tax rates and pays a flat tax rate. The first $335,000 in income is subject to the same rate as the next $335,000 in income.
 
shoplifter said:
True, but let's not forget that many other places have a VAT which at least helps to make up for the lower corporate rate.
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backslashbunny said:
Oh, I'm not saying that like it's a bad thing. Just saying that the statement is true.

It's what a lot of corporations say when they claim it's inhospitable for companies to do business here, and then move all their shit overseas and claim that it's the US's fault. They point to the high corporate tax rate and conveniently ignore all the other pieces of the puzzle.

Shitty justification for dodging tax liabilities. If I see someone ever use the "we have the highest corporate tax rate in the world" to justify what some of our corporations pull, I immediately disregard anything they have to say as naive nonsense.
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The way a VAT operates, corporations do not consider it to be an actual tax liability, but a cash flow issue. VAT that they pay on supplies are just input credits that they ultimately use to offset the VAT they need to pay that is collected from their end customers.
 
numble said:
The way a VAT operates, corporations do not consider it to be an actual tax liability, but a cash flow issue. VAT that they pay on supplies are just input credits that they ultimately use to offset the VAT they need to pay that is collected from their end customers.
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But is there no economic incidence of an ad valorem consumption tax borne by the supplier? I really have no idea how to even figure this out outside the confines of my nice undergrad micro-econ models which is the real world.

backslashbunny said:
Okay?

My point is that money flows to the government in some form or the other, so the ones that point to the "corporate tax rate" as the reason for companies not wanting to do business in the US are being dumb af because it's not like other countries with lower corporate tax rates aren't getting their money somewhere somehow. It's just an excuse to keep doing the shit that they do without taking responsibility.
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Well I imagine those corporate tax-haven countries' strategy is to increase their tax base by attracting an increased number of companies and they don't necessarily have the same revenue targets that the US has.
 
backslashbunny said:
Okay?

My point is that money flows to the government in some form or the other, so the ones that point to the "corporate tax rate" as the reason for companies not wanting to do business in the US are being dumb af because it's not like other countries with lower corporate tax rates aren't getting their money somewhere somehow. It's just an excuse to keep doing the shit that they do without taking responsibility.

If you want to get technical and talk shop about what some companies consider to be part of their actual "tax liability" versus the general concept of them having to pony up money from their business in some way to give to the government, no thanks. I get that's what you do when you wanna justify whatever you need to justify.
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I am trying to justify being accurate? Other countries get their money through VAT and higher income tax on individuals, I don't think they would disagree, and they also wouldn't disagree that that is to the benefit of the corporations.

Window said:
But is there no economic incidence of a ad valorem consumption tax borne by the supplier? I really have no idea how to even figure this out outside of the confines of my nice undergrad micro-econ models which is the real world.
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I agree that higher VAT and individual income tax would make consumers less likely to buy the company's goods. But I think they weigh the many factors in their decisions.
 
Gotchaye said:
No income tax burden. But you need to be making a fair amount of money before that's even the majority of your taxes under current policy. If you got rid of the income tax entirely you'd be massively shifting the tax burden downwards, because it's very progressive relative to other taxes we've got.
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That's a good point. Didn't consider that.
 
Besthelboy said:
Trump will cut all taxes and fund the government himself.
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We won't need a government once his economic plans make us all rich. Trump knows governments, and governments like him. They all like him. He's actual a real governing kind of guy, Trump. He'll make it work. He's made it work in business, he can make it work here.

/trumpisms
 
I'm not getting the guy saying he makes $40k and is paying 33%.. even in a state like Oregon that has no sales tax, so we have a high state income tax.. he'd be paying about 25% roughly in taxes between FIT (roughly $4), SIT ($2,600) and SSI/Medicare ($3100).

So, imagine we wiped out ALL of your Federal Tax.. that's $333/mo... you aren't probably buying a home off that extra $333 if you can't afford it now.

With the Trump plan, you'd effectively pay $1500.. so a $2500 a year savings.. $208 a month.

It's not nothing for sure.. but to say you are now drowning in taxes while still making $2500 take home (as you said you don't pay for health insurance, which could easily run you $200+ even subsidized) and that now making $2700 would be some huge burden off your chest. Sorry, not buying it.

I'm sorry, taxes are part of life. The myth that Federal Income Tax is a burden on the middle-class is absurd. There's considerably bigger problems for the middle-class than a low tax rate that's pretty unheard of in most other 1st world countries.
 
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