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[Doctor Doom]

Federal government doesn't get money from taxes, fwiw. All they do for it is remove that money from circulation.

Not really remove from circulation as the government circulates it back again, unless the supply of dollars was shrinking instead of growing it isn't removing but just controlling the rate of growth.

That said taxation also serves another purpose which is to curtail the concentration of wealth, especially the death tax that helps avoid the possibility of reestablishing some sort of pseudo nobility.

So everyone also gets things like food programs and housing benefits too?

Endgame in the far future should be eventually: guaranteed housing, guaranteed higher education, guaranteed medical care, guaranteed transportation(even travelling abroad), guaranteed water and electricity, guaranteed communication, guaranteed basic income, etc.

People have a right to live, and no one asks to be brought into this world. The least we can do is ensure those who come into this world are given the best the world can offer.

 

[MrCunningham]

Sounds... liberal?

He has to be a Hillary puppet, right?

He's just a business man. And I think he realizes that more people with deeper pockets will generate more spending in the US economy. At least that's what I think his plan is...

It was going okay until the businesses holding more cash part.

Yeah...

 

[Makai]

Even with the deductions at the top, this is one of the most progressive proposals I've heard.

 

[Makai]

Some of this sounds like a kids E3 wish list.

Imagine what programs would have to be cut or gutted to make this work.

None. Just add inflation. That's what he means by 6% growth.

 

[Joey Fox]

One thing Trump mentioned that he doesn't get credit for is the potential he has to reduce waste in government big time. Look into what he did to rebuild Wollman Ice Rink if you're curious.

 

[Zultan]

Even with the deductions at the top, this is one of the most progressive proposals I've heard.

It's an interesting proposal. He's garnering both liberals and conservatives with this one. Even this thread, with people that are hard left, are torn. Politically, probably the best thing he has done. Only real concern I have is how it is paid for.

Wonder if it has a chance to get some minority votes back to the Republican side.

 

[RustyNails]

He seems like he did his homework on taxes in the CNN interview.

 

[Joey Fox]

He seems like he did his homework on taxes in the CNN interview.

Carl Icahn is going to announce his endorsement of Trump tomorrow. If he's a strong supporter of all the tax plan's details I wonder how that will affect opinions.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

This all sounds very nonsensical to me. Fewer brackets that shifts more a burden to lower class folks, massive tax cuts to businesses, and no explanations on all these 'loopholes' that can be closed to fund all of this.

It's unicorn farts trying to sell a taxbreak for the rich, same as every other GOP tax plan in the last 30 or so years.

 

[Oblivion]

It's so stunning to me how any suggestions of trickle-down economics do not immediately get you laughed out of the room and politics.

Aside from the most recent obvious failure of this policy (from 2001 -2008), even when it was done under the Republican God-King, Ronaldus Magnus, even with the allegedly biggest economic boom in the history of civilization, even during those years, we NEVER collected enough revenue to make up for the loss in tax cuts.

And yet, this has become a literal religion by Republicans.

 

[Makai]

This all sounds very nonsensical to me. Fewer brackets that shifts more a burden to lower class folks, massive tax cuts to businesses, and no explanations on all these 'loopholes' that can be closed to fund all of this.

It's unicorn farts trying to sell a taxbreak for the rich, same as every other GOP tax plan in the last 30 or so years.

0% tax rate for like the bottom half of income earners. No lower class burden at all.

 

[ThusZarathustra]

Hilarious thread. So many nested levels of bullshit to wade through.

Trumps plan is dependent on actually closing corporate tax loopholes (which is a practical impossibility) and the assumption that there is enough money to be gained from taxing corporate overseas income (there is enough in gross amount, but not enough at the rate he's proposing, which he'll never get passed anyway.)

Higher taxes on corporations and the rich is the answer of course. If you want to exploit the American market you should have to pay to maintain the health of that market. But that won't happen in a million years so the middle class has to soldier the burden instead.

 

[Oblivion]

Furthermore, what's the contingency plan if/when there's not enough growth to offset the cost of the cuts?

 

[ThusZarathustra]

The funniest part is that raising taxes on corporations and the rich still wouldn't get the money better allocated into welfare and infrastructure where it's needed.

 

[Doctor Doom]

0% tax rate for like the bottom half of income earners. No lower class burden at all.

unless benefits are cut.

 

[Joey Fox]

Furthermore, what's the contingency plan if/when there's not enough growth to offset the cost of the cuts?

1. Taking Iraq's oil
2. Getting other countries to pay America for protection
3. (Speculation) reducing government waste

#1 and 2 aren't even contingency plans, they are Trump's actual plans I have read or heard so far

 

[Gotchaye]

0% tax rate for like the bottom half of income earners. No lower class burden at all.

No income tax burden. But you need to be making a fair amount of money before that's even the majority of your taxes under current policy. If you got rid of the income tax entirely you'd be massively shifting the tax burden downwards, because it's very progressive relative to other taxes we've got.

 

[MisterNoisy]

Interesting that there's no mention of capital gains rates. Also, abolishing estate taxes is bullshit.

 

[kirblar]

Donald Trump is a really, really interesting candidate. None of his policies are that conservative -- even on immigration, Jeb Bush is further to the right . He's actually managed to sell moderate liberal policies to reactionary voters, something most other Republicans could never accomplish.

A little bit of racist rhetoric can go a long way.

If trump gets nominated, it's a huge sea change politically. It means the left won and shifted the entire debate leftward.

 

[numble]

Because the poor have to spend all their money on buying things, and the rich actually spend very little of it on goods. So, 100% of the poor's income would be taxed, and, say, 10% of the rich's would be.

You seem to have ignored his analogous reference to the HST, which solves many of the perceived problems.

It is a broad based tax, so it applies to 1) more taxpayers and 2) also applies to purchase of services and purchases of assets--so it applies to businesses (not just individuals like a sales tax in the US) and the rich who spend more on services, or who buy expensive homes, must pay it.

It exempts many essentials: groceries, medicine and medical services, rent on housing, educational expenses, etc. So it aims to tax business to business activities and for consumers, "non-essential" activities.

It pays out money to low income families. So a low-income family with 2 children in Ontario would get paid $830 from the federal government and $1148 from Ontario. That's basically a $2000 transfer payment due to a "regressive" tax.

 

[darkace]

The inflationary effects of actually implementing this would definitely be something to see. From a safe distance, of course.

 

[n0razi]

This would make my job at H&R Block almost disappear.

I guess Trump would like that though.

Thats one thing im with him on

 

[AlteredBeast]

This isn't a necessarily horrible idea, but the top tax rate should be about 15 points higher. That tax rate is ridiculously low. Capital gains obviously needs to be taxed like regular income (with a caveat for the first x amount of dollars for the elusive middle class gains earners) and the estate tax should be increased, not decreased and ESPECIALLY not eliminated.

 

[genjiZERO]

If you make under $25k you are already getting almost everything back. Does he mean you wouldn't have to pay social security and medicare?

 

[AlteredBeast]

If you make under $25k you are already getting almost everything back. Does he mean you wouldn't have to pay social security and medicare?

Who knows. That is the benefit of both laying out a detailed plan, and leaving almost everything totally ambiguous. It is the Trump way.

 

[numble]

If you make under $25k you are already getting almost everything back. Does he mean you wouldn't have to pay social security and medicare?

Who knows. That is the benefit of both laying out a detailed plan, and leaving almost everything totally ambiguous. It is the Trump way.

You may want to look at his actual proposal, which details what he will do with deductions. This is $25,000 after the standard deduction and personal exemption. So 0% if you make $35,000 gross.

 

[reKon]

I don't understand the "tax loopholes" that could be closed and result in tax revenue comign in? Most of these multinational corporations just permanently reinvest overseas without ever repatriating back to the U.S and that's where the big money stays...

Maybe the most lower corporate tax rate would encourage company's so say "ah screw it" and bring it back?

 

[AlteredBeast]

You may want to look at his actual proposal, which details what he will do with deductions. This is $25,000 after the standard deduction and personal exemption. So 0% if you make $35,000 gross.

I just don't understand how this will actually result in a higher tax base. We need to collect more revenue.

 

[Condom]

I don't understand the "tax loopholes" that could be closed and result in tax revenue comign in? Most of these multinational corporations just permanently reinvest overseas without ever repatriating back to the U.S and that's where the big money stays...

Maybe the most lower corporate tax rate would encourage company's so say "ah screw it" and bring it back?

Bully companies into paying taxes, easy.

 

[Dr. Kaos]

This isn't a necessarily horrible idea, but the top tax rate should be about 15 points higher. That tax rate is ridiculously low. Capital gains obviously needs to be taxed like regular income (with a caveat for the first x amount of dollars for the elusive middle class gains earners) and the estate tax should be increased, not decreased and ESPECIALLY not eliminated.

Yep, and we need more tax brackets, not less. and the top tax rate should really be north of 70%.

 

[numble]

I just don't understand how this will actually result in a higher tax base. We need to collect more revenue.

That's fair, but saying his plan is "totally ambiguous" is pretty unfair--if you look at it, it is more detailed than many proposals, such as Hillary Clinton's.

 

[wildfire]

You seem to have ignored his analogous reference to the HST, which solves many of the perceived problems.

It is a broad based tax, so it applies to 1) more taxpayers and 2) also applies to purchase of services and purchases of assets--so it applies to businesses (not just individuals like a sales tax in the US) and the rich who spend more on services, or who buy expensive homes, must pay it.

It exempts many essentials: groceries, medicine and medical services, rent on housing, educational expenses, etc. So it aims to tax business to business activities and for consumers, "non-essential" activities.

It pays out money to low income families. So a low-income family with 2 children in Ontario would get paid $830 from the federal government and $1148 from Ontario. That's basically a $2000 transfer payment due to a "regressive" tax.

Thankfully that acronym was easy to find in Google. I would refrain using something that can be obscure in these discussions even if you broke it down in plain English.

I thought Trump was a minor threat at pulling low income voters on the democratic party side but if he plays his cards right and his opposition makes a misstep his ideas like Harmonized Sales Taxes would be appealing in spite of all the baggage he has.

 

[AlteredBeast]

Yep, and we need more tax brackets, not less. and the top tax rate should really be north of 70%.

I will take Carter tax rates, personally. Those days will never, ever return, though. Not even if Sanders took over and had a Democrat controlled congress for 8 years.

 

[numble]

Thankfully that acronym was easy to find in Google. I would refrain using something that can be obscure in these discussions even if you broke it down in plain English.

I thought Trump was a minor threat at pulling low income voters on the democratic party side but if he plays his cards right and his opposition makes a misstep his ideas like Harmonized Sales Taxes would be appealing in spite of all the baggage he has.

Oh, I don't know if Trump has a sales tax plan--I was just explaining Zing's reference to the HST. I was responding to Matt who was responding to Zing. Zing said he doesn't think a sales tax could put a burden on the poor because a lot of items are tax exempt and he receives HST checks every quarter:

How so? Many essential products are already free of sales tax. Besides, you simply issue "prebates" to lower income household.

Here in Ontario, I am still receiving HST checks every quarter from a tax increase years ago.

Basically, many people in the US argue that sales taxes are "regressive" and hurt the poor, but the reality is that many "socialist" countries have solved these problems (exempting essential items, using sales tax revenue to pay the poor) while also enabling greater collection of taxes (because they increase the number of taxpayers by taxing businesses and they also increase the number of taxable activities by taxing services and purchases of assets such as luxury homes).

 

[AlteredBeast]

You know, I think a Trump presidency wouldn't necessarily be so bad.

For one, I believe he does not really believe a lot of the ultra-red garbage he espouses. I think that is just to garner support from the 50% of GOPers that are absolutely bonkers. With Romney, I started to believe he was vile scum the more he talked, despite his fairly decent record as a Governor. With Trump, I actually believe less of it and it works in his favor.

I would love to see how he positions himself in the general election just to see how he pivots and how he debates Hillary or, if hell freezes over, Bernard.

I am almost positive he won't be getting my vote no matter what, but he does say interesting things.

 

[NervousXtian]

Does the plan mention the EIC... is it eliminated? Because if it's eliminated than this actually is net-tax increase on low income families.

..but no matter how you really look at it, Fed Tax effective rates for most families making less than 100k a year aren't that high at all after all the deductions.

Also, btw.. look how fucked making that extra dollar at 50k would be... cost you 5 grand.

 

[lem0n]

I really want America to follow Trump. We will have the most interesting 4 years ever if he actual had the power to do whatever the fuck he wanted to do. It'd be the experience of a lifetime.


It will probably be horrible, but it might be amazing at the same time. We'll get 4 years of horror-show, but his political-mucking might actually be the catalyst we need to completely alter the political quicksand we're in.

This is actually a hilariously good point. I mean how bad could it be, right?

 

[AlteredBeast]

Does the plan mention the EIC... is it eliminated? Because if it's eliminated than this actually is net-tax increase on low income families.

..but no matter how you really look at it, Fed Tax effective rates for most families making less than 100k a year aren't that high at all after all the deductions.

Also, btw.. look how fucked making that extra dollar at 50k would be... cost you 5 grand.

That's not how taxes work...

 

[TAJ]

Reaganomics 2015: The Re-Voodooing
He might as well just say "no taxes".

 

[Gonzo The Great]

You know, I think a Trump presidency wouldn't necessarily be so bad.

For one, I believe he does not really believe a lot of the ultra-red garbage he espouses. I think that is just to garner support from the 50% of GOPers that are absolutely bonkers. With Romney, I started to believe he was vile scum the more he talked, despite his fairly decent record as a Governor. With Trump, I actually believe less of it and it works in his favor.

I would love to see how he positions himself in the general election just to see how he pivots and how he debates Hillary or, if hell freezes over, Bernard.

I am almost positive he won't be getting my vote no matter what, but he does say interesting things.

Trump is pandering in order to get the nomination. Anybody who has followed the man for an extended period of time would know that he is a devout liberal, though he has always been firmly against illegal immigration. Using the Bible as a prop was genius, because he's somehow leading among evangelicals. Republicans will still vote for him if he moves further to the left during the general election because they'll view him as the "lesser of evils", and he'll also garner support from independents and Democrats due to his liberal leanings on social issues.

A Trump presidency could very well happen. The bigger hurdle is getting the nomination, because the establishment wants him gone.

 

[Downhome]

A Trump presidency could very well happen. The bigger hurdle is getting the nomination, because the establishment wants him gone.

As someone who isn't technically a Trump supporter, but rather a realist (thinking he he a better shot than those making jokes about him), I hope he gets the nomination just to see how quickly the GOP embraces him and starts to call him the greatest Republican candidate since Reagan. I just want to see that happen, because you know that's what they will do.

We would hear a lot of they were wrong, he has evolved, and on and on.

 

[AlteredBeast]

Trump is pandering in order to get the nomination. Anybody who has followed the man for an extended period of time would know that he is a devout liberal, though he has always been firmly against illegal immigration. Using the Bible as a prop was genius, because he's somehow leading among evangelicals. Republicans will still vote for him if he moves further to the left during the general election because they'll view him as the "lesser of evils", and he'll also garner support from independents and Democrats due to his liberal leanings on social issues.

A Trump presidency could very well happen. The bigger hurdle is getting the nomination, because the establishment wants him gone.

I agree with many of these points. Hell, a lot of Conservatives could think they have the Reagan II they have always wanted, even if Trump isn't going to be the conservative standard-bearer like Ronnie was.

 

[Orbis Tabula]

Also, btw.. look how fucked making that extra dollar at 50k would be... cost you 5 grand.

This is a common misconception, but that's not how it works. All income below 50 thousand would be taxed at that rate, and only each dollar above that level would be taxed at the new rate.

 

[Hexa]

As someone who isn't technically a Trump supporter, but rather a realist (thinking he he a better shot than those making jokes about him), I hope he gets the nomination just to see how quickly the GOP embraces him and starts to call him the greatest Republican candidate since Reagan. I just want to see that happen, because you know that's what they will do.

We would hear a lot of they were wrong, he has evolved, and on and on.

What would be funnier about that is that while he's already pretty far to the left, if he gets the nomination he's going to swing even more to the left probably. The Republicans embracing such a liberal candidate could be a tremendous leap and help fix the shit show it currently is.

 

[numble]

Ah, thanks.

So if this is true, the plan has the opposite problem -- Trump is claiming taxing foreign income would produce a lot more money and make his plan revenue neutral. If that change would produce very little additional income, then actually this change wouldn't make the plan revenue neutral at all.

Yes, he confirms it in his plan as well:

This lower rate makes corporate inversions unnecessary by making America’s tax rate one of the best in the world.

An end to the deferral of taxes on corporate income earned abroad. Corporations will no longer be allowed to defer taxes on income earned abroad, but the foreign tax credit will remain in place because no company should face double taxation.

But because tax is complex many people will think it hits at corporations for deferring tax on overseas income, when the corporations would actually be in favor of such an approach since the money will come back to the US tax-free.

 

[AlteredBeast]

What would be funnier about that is that while he's already pretty far to the left, if he gets the nomination he's going to swing even more to the left probably. The Republicans embracing such a liberal candidate could be a tremendous leap and help fix the shit show it currently is.

On the other hand, if he loses (and he would lose, come on, let's get real), it will push the crazy side of the party even further to the right. That will cause even more batshit Cruz-type sociopaths into Congress.

 

[TrounceX]

After this and the very reasonable interview on 60 minutes last night, I'm actually starting to like Trump. At the very least he is night and day better than any of the other Republican nominees, that much is obvious.

And I'm sorry if this sounds selfish, but as a middle class citizen I desperately want lower taxes. Just wait until you get your first real paycheck at $20+ / hour and you will understand. The government taking 1/3 of every paycheck is a cruel joke. I'd literally be in the process of buying a house right now if my taxes weren't so high.

 

[Citadelofmythoughts]

Just wait until you get your first real paycheck at $20+ / hour and you will understand.

I'm nearly 50 and have had plenty of real paychecks and I think Trump and anyone who supports him needs to see a therapist ASAP. Trump is one step removed from Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho

Also: http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox...ld_cost_at_least_10_8_trillion_give_lots.html

 

[biggersmaller]

Problematic, but simplifying the tax code and attempting to reign in foreign shelters is a good starting point. A complicated code is created to give loopholes to the rich and powerful. I hate to say I'm tracking with what some of what Trump is proposing...but here we are.

I agree with many of these points. Hell, a lot of Conservatives could think they have the Reagan II they have always wanted, even if Trump isn't going to be the conservative standard-bearer like Ronnie was.

Even Reagan wasn't the conservative standard-bearer neocons make him out to be. He was a pragmatist in practice, unlike the all-or-nothing hardline assholes he inspired.

 

[AlteredBeast]

After this and the very reasonable interview on 60 minutes last night, I'm actually starting to like Trump. At the very least he is night and day better than any of the other Republican nominees, that much is obvious.

And I'm sorry if this sounds selfish, but as a middle class citizen I desperately want lower taxes. Just wait until you get your first real paycheck at $20+ / hour and you will understand. The government taking 1/3 of every paycheck is a cruel joke. I'd literally be in the process of buying a house right now if my taxes weren't so high.

If you are making $20/hr, you aren't earning dick and the tax rates for that income is more than fair. The American mindset on taxes is poison. We need to be paying more. You need to be paying more. I am a middle class father of three. We are a single income house with what feels like nothing leftover month after month, but even I know I don't pay enough in taxes.