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[Punished Miku]

I see this sentiment a lot on here, and to some extent it's obvious why. If you mostly follow the big tentpole releases from major publishers, I could see how you could convince yourself this is the truth. But as someone who mostly has preferred Japanese games for the vast majority of my playtime for decades, I feel compelled to stand up for western gaming now more than ever. It's just inaccurate to try and pretend that there's no good western games, no gameplay diversity, no new IP. In reality, there's honestly more creativity coming from the west currently than anytime I can recall.

If you're an developer of middling talent, you can go work for a big publisher and take yoga classes and take 4 weeks to do a programming task that takes normal people 45 minutes. But if you're an actually talented developer, you likely have set out to make your own indie studio because here you can actually put out new IP and make whatever you want.

Japan barely has an indie scene. It's 99% western teams making these games. And while Japanese games are great, it's not like they are making new IP non-stop either right now. I can't help but feel like people are just sticking their heads in the sand and completely mischaracterizing what is happening right now. SQEX cranks out remakes and the same IP. Capcom cranks out remakes and the same IP. From Software is working on Demon's Souls 11.

When someone writes that "western games suck," I think that literally all they see is stuff like Concord, Saints Row, I don't even know what else. In reality, this is what western gaming looks like right now. You're getting more genre diversity than anywhere, more new IP, more varied art styles than ever before.

Dungeons of Hinterberg (Austria)

CYGNI (Scotland)

Flintlock (New Zealand)

Solar Ash (US)

Cookie Cutter (England)

Demon School (US)

Jusant (France)

I could literally keep going and list hundreds of these. Lamplighters League, Worldless, Laika, Still Wakes the Deep, Prince of Persia, Pentiment, Citizen Sleeper, Immortality, Sea of Stars, Cocoon and on and on and on. This is probably the best time to be into western games literally ever.

 

[Dacvak]

The fate of western games rests solely with Retro; if Metroid Prime 4 is good, western gaming is saved. If it’s bad, western gaming is doomed.

So it has been said, so it will be decreed.

 

[cormack12]

Um

Where is forspoken

 

[Woopah]

Fully agree. There's absolutely some bad Western games out there, but there's also lots of great ones.

 

[Fake]

Thats my secret captain, they always do.

 

[Miyazaki’s Slave]

Dungeons of Hinterberg (Austria)

Thank you for the post. I had this on my wishlist but didn't realize it had released....purchased.

 

[Miyazaki’s Slave]

The fate of western games rests solely with Retro; if Metroid Prime 4 is good, western gaming is saved. If it’s bad, western gaming is doomed.

So it has been said, so it will be decreed.

In Nintendo We Trust

 

[The Cockatrice]

They may be diverse but they're still just meh in my eyes. More than half the games you mentioned are something I'd never touch nor are they exactly great.

 

[SHA]

You want western games at least change your perspective, you're really doing yourself a favor by doing that.

 

[mrcroket]

When people talk about the Western industry, they mean the AAA or AA industry, games made by big studios with big budgets.

It is not that talent has obviously been lost in all western developers, but that the industry has decided to drift towards an approach where game development and quality has been seriously diminished.

We could discuss the reasons that have led the industry to this (economic, political, GAAS....).

 

[Bring Back Scalebound]

Any "_______ sucks now" type of sentiment or dismissal is either based on true dissatisfaction, or laziness to actually search for good games. I partially (*fully) agree with you that there are a lot of people in that latter category.

I totally don't think it was your intention, but saying that people are basing their disappointment or dismissal of Western games on Saint Row (A game literally nobody talks about anymore) and Concord, was a bit dishonest.

Speaking only for me here, the games you mentioned, don't catch my eyes at all (I did like what I saw of CYGNI, but I'm biased because I like the genre the game is in)

And the indie scene is still filled with too much nostalgia/retro/homages/____-likes dick riding for my taste.
If I want Retro, I go for Emulation. And I don't want Nostalgia to be a factor in game development, ever.

There hasn't been many western games that made feel something looking at them.
Returnal was one (but lost me on how it handled saving).
Again, CYGNI was one.

But for the most part, their art direction tends to bore me to tears, their character designs, even worse.
And gameplay wise, they aren't doing much that interests me...

 

[Guilty_AI]

i generally agree with your sentiment, but i do have to say eastern countries do have a healthy indie scene going for them.

 

[Gamer_By_Proxy]

meh, indies were never really the problem or what people meant when saying Western games have taken a downturn.

The issue is the AAA devs all trying for GaaS money grabs or cloning what has worked in the past but now with more woke.

 

[lughnasadh123]

They never did but people are going to hug that narrative tight regardless.

 

[hyperbertha]

Google Image Result for https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/sfGT4fg7zehh7rFFQFqW3w--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTY0MA--/https://s.yimg.com/os/en-AU/homerun/y7.beau/2c4677f9b292faeb6a8769749cd41579

 

[fallingdove]

90% of indie games aren’t very good and there are way too many of them. All but maybe 1 game you listed are among the indies I’ve given a second thought to after having finished it. They are underwhelming or incomplete and often as derivative as the paint-by-numbers AAA western games that this forum is so critical of.

I don't have the time or the patience to wade through the endless sea of poorly realized indie games out there but have enough experience with it to know that you haven’t made a case for western games.

 

[killatopak]

Japan barely has an indie scene.

This is wrong. Japan has a huge indie scene that predates even the flash games children used to play 20 years ago.

They just aren’t translated so they have less international exposure. They have had indie awards going back in the 90s as far as I know. Comiket is also a huge event where they do sell these before the internet boom and that continues to this day.

 

[vaibhavpisal]

i generally agree with your sentiment, but i do have to say eastern countries do have a healthy indie scene going for them.

This is wrong. Japan has a huge indie scene that predates even the flash games children used to play 20 years ago.

They just aren’t translated so they have less international exposure. They have had indie awards going back in the 90s as far as I know. Comiket is also a huge event where they do sell these before the internet boom and that continues to be this day.

How about you post some here?

Or better yet make a thread.

 

[fallingdove]

Any "_______ sucks now" type of sentiment or dismissal is either based on true dissatisfaction, or laziness to actually search for good games. I partially agree with you that there are a lot of people in that latter category.

I totally don't think it was your intention, but saying that people are basing their disappointment or dismissal of Western games on Saint Row (A game literally nobody talks about anymore) and Concord, was a bit dishonest.

Speaking only for me here, the games you mentioned, don't catch my eyes at all (I did like what I saw of CYGNI, but I'm biased because I like the genre the game is in)

And the indie scene is still filled with too much nostalgia/retro/homages/____-likes dick riding for my taste.
If I want Retro, I go for Emulation. And I don't want Nostalgia to be a factor in game development, ever.

There hasn't been many western games that made feel something looking at them.
Returnal was one (but lost me on how it handled saving).
Again, CYGNI was one.

But for the most part, their art direction tends to bore me to tears, their character designs, even worse.
And gameplay wise, they aren't doing much that interests me...

Spot on.

 

[Black_Mamba]

Indie games are more a problem than the merit of western developers imo. There're too many of them and they all look very stylish, but seldom it's a good game. I'd rather see a joint effort of all these talented western devs to create something ambitious like Black Myth Wukong (hoping it's really good) than an infinite number of small games that will get lost in the digital stores.

 

[killatopak]

How about you post some here?

Or better yet make a thread.

Uhh Touhou, Tsukihime, Yume Nikki, La Mulana, Corpse Party to name a few that I have played and has huge popularity outside Japan.

I have also played quite a few where I only saw it on Youtube and decided to play it. GU-L and Peret em Heru are some of those.

 

[Generic]

Fortnite is the best game ever made, so yeah, western games are doing well.

 

[FoxMcChief]

Globally, most games suck.

 

[Švejk]

They're still not what they use to be, and sadly never will be again.

And just my (hard) two cents on Cygni; just because they're based in Scotland, the devs are FAR from being "western" devs.

 

[ssringo]

How about you post some here?

Or better yet make a thread.

Dlsite.com

It's Japanese focused and lots of stuff doesn't get translated but the site itself can be viewed and navigated in English and has a pretty good filter for genres and such. It's skewed (heavily) towards the more pervy/adult side of things but not all of it. Some of the bigger names to come out of the Japanese indie scene released there before coming west (like Recettear).

There's lots of games, doujin, manga, etc getting released every day.

 

[Guilty_AI]

How about you post some here?

Or better yet make a thread.

I literally did... sort of:

Community - An assessment of non-japanese asian games (single-player)

With Stellar Blade approaching, i think it'd be interesting to take a look at the current state of game development in other asian countries besides Japan. I'll try to bring two released games from multiple eastern asian countries, naturally feel free to show some as well if you know any...

www.neogaf.com

Well, for JP which aren't included there, here's a few i happen to remember rn:

 

[_Ex_]

In reality, there's honestly more creativity coming from the west currently than anytime I can recall.

So you weren't alive in the '90s.

 

[SmokedMeat]

“Western games” encompasses so much that it’s flat out foolish to look at some AAA games and claim they suck.

Asian games are no different really. You’ve got your mediocrity, and your decent stuff.

Either way only indies are pumping out anything with originality and a focus on gameplay.

 

[Loomy]

People need to play more games. You’re doing yourself a disservice if you only part attention to the AAA games Ubisoft, EA, and Sony puts out.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

meh

These are all indie tier trash

 

[sigmaZ]

Thank you for the post. I had this on my wishlist but didn't realize it had released....purchased.

I wonder what the gameplay loop is like? It's on Gamepass, so I might try it eventually.

I think there are plenty of decent western indie games, but many lack the oomph of the games that I've played throughout my life and long for in games.
The two best western indie games I've played are Celeste and Nobody Saves the World. Both of them had the same feel of a well-polished Japanese-developed game the likes of something Nintendo is known to put out.

 

[IAmRei]

Japan barely has an indie scene.

Speaking of indie japan, I think japanese also had indie, and as long as i recall, they are have lot of indies, but called doujigames. They are underground and not go international mostly. Long before indie booms at the west, they hold indies in their own. They just like underground, or they dont need to get outside.

Speaking of western games, i see they are now, mostly, not good for me, as before.

I recall there are good games from west, such as crysis, killzone, deus ex, torchlight 2, titan quest, mass effect 2, farcry 2 and lot more.

But today is anotherday, their game only pretty in graphic, but not more engage like before. Too bad...

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

I won't be supporting games like that because they're just not my cup of tea.

 

[diffusionx]

Ayo this dude posted flintlock siege of dawn to prove western games are good LMAO

 

[MikeM]

Sales say otherwise.

 

[Chukhopops]

I wonder what the gameplay loop is like? It's on Gamepass, so I might try it eventually.

I think there are plenty of decent western indie games, but many lack the oomph of the games that I've played throughout my life and long for in games.
The two best western indie games I've played are Celeste and Nobody Saves the World. Both of them had the same feel of a well-polished Japanese-developed game the likes of something Nintendo is known to put out.

It’s a mix of Persona (social links, calendar activities) and Wind Waker era Zelda for the dungeons (light platforming, puzzles, a bit of combat). It also takes a lot of ideas from other Nintendo games especially Mario Galaxy.

It’s surprisingly good at every aspect except maybe the character designs who look like woke Miis. It’s also the first game I can think of to succeed at this « western cel shading » style. If you have GP it’s worth a try for sure.

 

[Katajx]

I think the last couple of generations the west had made some really fun, and amazing games.

The teams that made them seem to be shells of their former selves. Corporate strategies and development seems to of shifted, and it hasn’t been without its ups and downs.

I used to enjoy Ubisoft,Bethesda,Rocksteady,BioWare, and several others, but the quality just seems to have declined.

 

[Punished Miku]

It’s also the first game I can think of to succeed at this « western cel shading » style

Sable is also a looker, but yeah the art style is amazing.

 

[balls of snow]

Sales say otherwise.

You really wanna play that game.

Grand Theft Auto V total unit sales 2024 | Statista

GTA 5 sales reached 200 million copies, making Grand Theft Auto 5 one of the single most popular video games of all time.

www.statista.com

 

[Danjin44]

I’m excited for this game, if we ever get released date for it.

But that’s it.

 

[Roberts]

I have fond memories of visiting Japan, I love Japanese culture, both old and new, I adore Japanese cinema (all the way from Ozu to Sono), but I could never really get into Japanese games. There are notable exceptions (I dig many Capcom games, for example) and for the most part I admire their originality and imagination, but there are things that instantly put me off. For example I tried to play both Octopath Traveller games and found the pacing lethargic, writing and VA infantile, dull and repetitious. I absolutely hate all the dweeb shit in so many games. So, it is not much of a surprise when I say that I have a way stronger appreciation of western games in general, even when they are directly being inspired by Japanese games. I mean, I have seen people comparing Dungeons of Hinderberg to Persona games. I played Persona 5 for an hour before I gave up but breezed through DoH like nobody's business. I absolutely loved the atmosphere, the humor and gameplay of aforementioned Nobody Saves the World and I'm fully aware that the game wouldn't be possible if not for its Japanese influence. If that means I have a shit taste in gaming then I'm OK with that.

But yeah, It is great time to be a gamer atm if you are into western indie games. I finish around 50 games each year, majority of them being western indies and most of them are memorable, exciting experiences.

 

[Punished Miku]

I have seen people comparing Dungeons of Hinderberg to Persona games. I played Persona 5 for an hour before I gave up but breezed through DoH like nobody's business.

I've been really trying to get through Persona 3 Reloaded and it's been a slog. So much about the game is great, but it suffers from a lot of wasted time in the dialogue.

 

[Generic]

meh

These are all indie tier trash

Indie devs experiment more than AAA studios.

Ayo this dude posted flintlock siege of dawn to prove western games are good LMAO

What's the issue?

 

[Labadal]

You're a cool poster in my book OP, but the games you so highly praise, they were almost all duds for me.

 

[Roberts]

I've been really trying to get through Persona 3 Reloaded and it's been a slog. So much about the game is great, but it suffers from a lot of wasted time in the dialogue.

Yes! I guess what I expect from storytelling in games is similar to how I appreciate cinema. I don't want everything to be expressed and explained in words and if there is need for exposition, it is ok to tell me it once, but, man, Japanese games are so guilty of just repeating the same information million times. It is as if nobody fucking edits their scripts.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Currently playing Fallout London and it’s pretty awesome. Amazing to get a new Fallout game, it’s not quite the size of their mainline games but doesn’t seem much smaller then say, New Vegas.

 

[StueyDuck]

Wasn't this meant to be a thread proving games are good

Could've at least put actual good indie games like animal well

 

[cireza]

So you weren't alive in the '90s.

This. Back then Japanese games were of high quality for sure, but there wasn't a lot of variety. From Western devs we would get many interesting and creative games. On the MegaDrive alone (for example), if you look at Western games, you get super interesting and original games and engines. I will list a few ones.

Desert Strike series
Dune on Sega CD
Dune II on MD
D&D Warriors of the Eternal Sun
Both Ecco games
Sub Terrania
Road Rash series
The Haunting
Worms
Core Design games, for example Thunderstrike
Zombies ate my neighbour
and many more...

 

[AJUMP23]

Thank you for the post. I had this on my wishlist but didn't realize it had released....purchased.

It is on Gamepass I think

 

[Guilty_AI]

Could've at least put actual good indie games like animal well

eh, a friend who played it said it was fine but nothing particularly special compared to similar games.