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[NanaMiku]

WRONG! The east just prefers to call their works Doujin rather than indie. Check our Playisms catalog and you will see tons of JP indies

Well, doujin means indie, they just use their language. Doujin means self-published.

One of the biggest indie game from Japan and it's a million seller:

 

[Isa]

Sorry my friend, but I will still hold to my argument that the west has fallen and badly. So has much of the world sadly, but I'd say that is due to a variety of factors those being ballooning costs, focus groups, ham-fisted corporate control and terrible management, and larger lower-skilled teams that what had come before. I think the west was as absolute powerhouse back in the day and rightly so. But compared to what has come before to me there is no question, the west is downright pathetic. Not saying Asian games or practices are perfect mind, but overall my purchases of games made in the west have all but completely stopped. I've got the money, they don't want it.

I'd also argue that from where I'm sittin' some talented artists, coders and devs have made their way into niche markets, such as the adult scene on PC, where they are much more liberated to try out new ideas and interesting stories. However as usual the asshole wanker bankers in Visa & Mastercard(starting back in the days of Bush and friends) have continuously tried to stifle any chance of a free market, dictating what can and can't be purchased on any marketplace. I'm not talking about illegal content, they just enforce puritan values which is rich coming from the line snorting June corpo banner skin they adopt. Thankfully people fight on.

Also it'd be unwise to discredit the Doujin scene, its been around forever and helped get soooooo many game devs into the industry proper, or even build them up cult status and such. Hell most artists I support are Doujin folks, as well as the games.

For me the downfall of western gaming has the hallmarks of turning the consumer into paying beta-testers, releasing buggy titles to be maybe patched up later, multi-tier superultrajumbodeluxe edition cutaway content with dlc passes for stuff they couldn't finish lol. Then with the DEI/BRIDGE stuff thrown in that was for some I assume the final straw. For me it stretches across everything, games, movies, comics, tabletop games & rpgs, music. They do something I don't like I don't give them my dollar. Life's too short. I'd rather give my spacebucks to those that respect me. I do agree there is good stuff out there, but for me much of what you posted save for Cygni just reeks of that Sweet Baby stank. I won't even risk it until I have confirmation later, if I even care at that point. Thankfully there is a sea of releases over the last 30+ years I've yet to try and they're not only fantastic, but most are totally new experiences to me. And the western indie scene is pretty cool.

 

[Generic]

After reading the thread, I noticed people mostly use single-player games as examples of "west bad, east good"

In reality the PvP scene is pretty much dominated by western games.

 

[MAX PAYMENT]

I think it's just AAA western games that have gotten bad.

 

[GigaBowser]

they do im sorry my friend

 

[ProtoByte]

Yeah Punished Miku , those aren't the best examples.

The truth is that nobody gives 2 shits about "creativity". Not that that defines Japanese titles anymore than it does Western. There's 2 things that contribute to the conversation around a game: Actual quality and narratives.

This forum has a history of pro-Japanese bias, so there's always going to be a subsection of weeb-adjacents who genuinely think the latest Tales Of game has better writing than the latest AC or some shit.

The reality is quite different. Most of the successful Japanese publishers today have gotten their by aping western shit. Whether or not people want to acknowledge it.

 

[Generic]

Yeah Punished Miku , those aren't the best examples.

The truth is that nobody gives 2 shits about "creativity". Not that that defines Japanese titles anymore than it does Western. There's 2 things that contribute to the conversation around a game: Actual quality and narratives.

This forum has a history of pro-Japanese bias, so there's always going to be a subsection of weeb-adjacents who genuinely think the latest Tales Of game has better writing than the latest AC or some shit.

The reality is quite different. Most of the successful Japanese publishers today have gotten their by aping western shit. Whether or not people want to acknowledge it.

With narrative you meant writing?

 

[ProtoByte]

With narrative you meant writing?

No, as in the narrative around a game.

We've seen how a game will have good favor closer to release, then 6 months later, it sucks. Eg GoW Ragnarok or Hogwarts Legacy. Or the reverse: Watch Dogs was a bland crime against game design in 2014, now Aiden Pierce is a gaming king and original WD represents the golden days of Assassin's Creed and Ubisoft in general.

 

[Fabieter]

Why do you compare like a dozens of countries to just japan. Let's do an asia vs western games and I would take the asian side every day of the week.

Guilty_AI made a thread a few weeks back with all the other asian countries making really awesome games too.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Why do you compare like a dozens of countries to just japan. Let's do an asia vs western games and I would take the asian side every day of the week.

Guilty_AI made a thread a few weeks back with all the other asian countries making really awesome games too.

more like a few months back, but yeah

Community - An assessment of non-japanese asian games (single-player)

With Stellar Blade approaching, i think it'd be interesting to take a look at the current state of game development in other asian countries besides Japan. I'll try to bring two released games from multiple eastern asian countries, naturally feel free to show some as well if you know any...

www.neogaf.com

 

[Fabieter]

more like a few months back, but yeah

Community - An assessment of non-japanese asian games (single-player)

With Stellar Blade approaching, i think it'd be interesting to take a look at the current state of game development in other asian countries besides Japan. I'll try to bring two released games from multiple eastern asian countries, naturally feel free to show some as well if you know any...

www.neogaf.com

Tried witchspringr for example and it's at least as good as most of the japanese rpgs. Thanks for the recommendation!

 

[EDMIX]

Globally, most games suck.

Truth.

I mean, when you look at how many games release world wide yearly, most shit sucks regardless of where it comes from.

How many good quality games anyone likes will always be a pretty limited number and I personally never boil that down from east to west

granted, a large number of special editions I bought this year have been from Japan like FFVII remake, Persona 3 remake etc

I'm still buying Steelbook versions of AC Shadows and Star Wars Outlaws this year

Good games can come from the east or west, but shit games can still come from the east or west too lol

 

[Barakov]

Sorry my friend, but I will still hold to my argument that the west has fallen and badly. So has much of the world sadly, but I'd say that is due to a variety of factors those being ballooning costs, focus groups, ham-fisted corporate control and terrible management, and larger lower-skilled teams that what had come before. I think the west was as absolute powerhouse back in the day and rightly so. But compared to what has come before to me there is no question, the west is downright pathetic. Not saying Asian games or practices are perfect mind, but overall my purchases of games made in the west have all but completely stopped. I've got the money, they don't want it.

I'd also argue that from where I'm sittin' some talented artists, coders and devs have made their way into niche markets, such as the adult scene on PC, where they are much more liberated to try out new ideas and interesting stories. However as usual the asshole wanker bankers in Visa & Mastercard(starting back in the days of Bush and friends) have continuously tried to stifle any chance of a free market, dictating what can and can't be purchased on any marketplace. I'm not talking about illegal content, they just enforce puritan values which is rich coming from the line snorting June corpo banner skin they adopt. Thankfully people fight on.

Also it'd be unwise to discredit the Doujin scene, its been around forever and helped get soooooo many game devs into the industry proper, or even build them up cult status and such. Hell most artists I support are Doujin folks, as well as the games.

For me the downfall of western gaming has the hallmarks of turning the consumer into paying beta-testers, releasing buggy titles to be maybe patched up later, multi-tier superultrajumbodeluxe edition cutaway content with dlc passes for stuff they couldn't finish lol. Then with the DEI/BRIDGE stuff thrown in that was for some I assume the final straw. For me it stretches across everything, games, movies, comics, tabletop games & rpgs, music. They do something I don't like I don't give them my dollar. Life's too short. I'd rather give my spacebucks to those that respect me. I do agree there is good stuff out there, but for me much of what you posted save for Cygni just reeks of that Sweet Baby stank. I won't even risk it until I have confirmation later, if I even care at that point. Thankfully there is a sea of releases over the last 30+ years I've yet to try and they're not only fantastic, but most are totally new experiences to me. And the western indie scene is pretty cool.

FACTS.

 

[Hypereides]

While I don't agree with the entire showcase here, I do agree with the sentiment. There's definitely some interesting western games out there to be found.

They have had a rough last couple of years. Hellblade 2, Starfield, Suicide Squad, Avatar, Alan Wake 2, Redfall, and several other western games have been mediocre at best, awful at worst. Indie games are not what most people play or want to play. Mentioning them as things people should play when people simply dont have any interest in those genres makes no sense.

There have been some great ones recently though. BG3, Helldivers 2, Spiderman 2, Star Wars Jedi Survivor and GOW Ragnorak are fairly decent games. But they are the exception not the norm. Sony studios led the way for many years in the PS3 and PS4 gen, and they have kind of dropped the ball this gen which is why the sentiment that western games are bad is worse than before. When the most celebrated publisher takes a hit, its bound to create a chasm. Something MS studios and third parties like EA, Ubisoft and Activision failed to fill.

Meanwhile, japanese studios have been fairly consistent. RE4, Zelda BOTW, Elden Rings, Armored Core, Dragons Dogma 2,Final fantasy 16, FF7 Rebirth (Though i hate this game personally) have all been received rather well compared to other western games.

I think people are just waiting for a true AAA experience from their favorite developers. I dont care what anyone says, people like what they like and they like Rockstar games, Naughty Dog games, Bioware RPGs, Elder Scrolls games, GOW games, Fable, Tomb Raider, Max Payne games, and well most Sony first party single player games. once they start coming out next year and are even a least bit competent like GOW Ragnorak and Spiderman 2, no one is going to care about Japanese games other than some Nintendo fans who really like their own favorite franchises and the anti-western sentiment will improve.

Slimy, you could've saved some text space and stated you just enjoy being closed minded.

All those legacy series, as well as developers, you listed are husks of their former selves. As a Tomb raider fan I have very little faith in whatever nonsense Crystal dynamics plans to sludge out. Regardless of how pretty the graphics will be, they won't do the series justice. Max Payne? The remakes? are you kidding me?

Personally I can't get excited for any AAA game for that matter given they'll continue to rely on the same 10 year old templates or revisions upon revisions with flashier graphics. If gaming for you is all about high fidelity graphics look then you do you. But, honestly, to me this way going about it is tremendously restrictive and boring.

 

[Markio128]

I’ve recently finished ‘Thank goodness you’re here!’ and it was a great, but only lasted a couple of hours. Funny while it lasted though.

The games mentioned by OP I wouldn’t touch with a 10 foot barge pole. Not exactly a winning argument.

 

[Woopah]

Edit: wrong thread.

 

[tommib]

It’s a fine premise, specially because the current game of the generation is Finnish.

 

[Guilty_AI]

It’s a fine premise, specially because the current game of the generation is Finnish.

Wreckfest?

 

[Punished Miku]

Why do you compare like a dozens of countries to just japan. Let's do an asia vs western games

I totally agree with that. The framing is mostly as a response to a lot of people that say only Japanese games are good. Comparing a tiny country to the entire western world obviously isn't fair. West vs Asia is an interesting thread, but my real point is honestly that there's great games coming from all over the world and having any East vs. West mindset is not great. Roberts pointed out some other emerging development countries like Brazil, Mexico, Indonesia. I know I've picked up 2-3 indie games from Indonesia this gen, one from Singapore, one from Columbia. There was a good indie games showcase this year in Central / South America, but I can't remember the country.

 

[Roberts]

It’s a fine premise, specially because the current game of the generation is Finnish.

Is it Aki Kaurismaki Cigarette Manager or Sauna Simulator 2024?

 

[ReBurn]

I prefer to judge each game on it's own merits and I think western and eastern are too broad to use to make a decision.

 

[Fabieter]

I totally agree with that. The framing is mostly as a response to a lot of people that say only Japanese games are good. Comparing a tiny country to the entire western world obviously isn't fair. West vs Asia is an interesting thread, but my real point is honestly that there's great games coming from all over the world and having any East vs. West mindset is not great. Roberts pointed out some other emerging development countries like Brazil, Mexico, Indonesia. I know I've picked up 2-3 indie games from Indonesia this gen, one from Singapore, one from Columbia. There was a good indie games showcase this year in Central / South America, but I can't remember the country.

It all comes down to personal preference. I lean toward Asian games, but if a Western game is exceptional, like "Baldur’s Gate 3" was for me last year, I’ll definitely play it. Despite my strong bias, that was my Game of the Year.

My theory on why Japanese games resonate more with people is that they tend to deliver more traditional gaming experiences compared to many Western developers. Interestingly, some of the best Western indie games draw strong inspiration from Japanese game design.

Ultimately, it’s just a matter of preference.

 

[laynelane]

It all comes down to personal preference. I lean toward Asian games, but if a Western game is exceptional, like "Baldur’s Gate 3" was for me last year, I’ll definitely play it. Despite my strong bias, that was my Game of the Year.

My theory on why Japanese games resonate more with people is that they tend to deliver more traditional gaming experiences compared to many Western developers. Interestingly, some of the best Western indie games draw strong inspiration from Japanese game design.

Ultimately, it’s just a matter of preference.

That's an intriguing theory. For my part, back when the internet was first becoming a thing, I was surprised to find there was a distinction between Japanese and Western games - even a rivalry among some people (which is better). When I looked at my collection, it turned out I very much gravitated towards Japanese games and that still holds true for today. Over the years, Japanese games have retained what I liked about them in the first place - a traditional gaming experience is a good way to put it too.

 

[Danjin44]

That's an intriguing theory. For my part, back when the internet was first becoming a thing, I was surprised to find there was a distinction between Japanese and Western games - even a rivalry among some people (which is better). When I looked at my collection, it turned out I very much gravitated towards Japanese games and that still holds true for today. Over the years, Japanese games have retained what I liked about them in the first place - a traditional gaming experience is a good way to put it too.

Japanese games not afraid of be gamey while (not all) but most western devs want to get away from their games from being gamey as if its negative thing.

 

[MLSabre]

but most western devs want to get away from their games from being gamey as if its negative thing.

The end result being a poor man's cinematic film with a few interactive elements.

Might as well go all the way and be an actual film maker instead. But what do I know?

 

[EDMIX]

Japanese games not afraid of be gamey while (not all) but most western devs want to get away from their games from being gamey as if its negative thing.

Well it definitely depends on the game and I'm not really sure I would argue that the Japanese are not afraid of something like this because they're technically the ones that even began this idea of narratively telling games in this story type fashion

vs

Again...

vs

Look at the original metal gear solid, This was extremely unique for its time where you have a game that has a plot and story and script with voice actors and even a musical score, This idea is to say that gaming is much more than simply points it is an interactive medium where the main goal can possibly be to entertain in a different way as opposed to gain any specific number competitively in terms of old school gamification

The idea of what "gaming" is has expanded greatly

As the idea of why someone might play a game will differ from person to person as not every person is actually playing a video game for actual gamey elements

Take me for example sometimes I'm very much playing a game to physically do something within that game, Sometimes I'm playing a game because of the narrative because I wish to be entertained in a specific way that I would not actually define like other titles.

So I'm not sure I would say that something with the East versus West because technically that is something Japan started with Silent Hill or titles like Metal Gear Solid

That game itself completely revolutionized how people look that games and that began the idea that games can be much more than merely points on a scoreboard.


So they're not doing that as if gamey is a negative thing, They are doing that because this idea can be multiple things....I don't even know if the term should even be called "game" as that exact idea isn't even something most are seeking with this medium compared to decades ago.

Interactive entertainment
Digital experiences lol

Point is, what someone is doing with Pong, Tetris, Fifa etc is not the same as what someone might be playing Silent Hill, Bioshock or Dead Space or The Last Of Us or something

It would be like acting as if all shows need to be like Soap Operas solely because the first show was a soap opera and then continues judge all shows based on something like this, it makes no sense and we don't actually do this in other mediums btw imho, the name simply cannot remain as the idea of what the medium is currently ,does not reflect the actual thing we are calling it.

Can someone play something for gamey ideas, sure, but that isn't the whole medium and maybe that name needs to be retired or something.

 

[ProtoByte]

Meanwhile, japanese studios have been fairly consistent. RE4, Zelda BOTW, Elden Rings, Armored Core, Dragons Dogma 2,Final fantasy 16, FF7 Rebirth (Though i hate this game personally) have all been received rather well compared to other western games.

Armored Core and Dragon's Dogma didn't even have amazing reception. DD2 especially. Plenty of people all over the internet make similar complaints about it that we do about most Western games: Despite 2 generations from the first game, they barely did anything to advance the game.

Funnily, literally all of the stuff you mentioned are sequels/Remakes. Not a great profile for "creativity" the Japanese glazers keep talking about.

 

[JayK47]

Your whole argument took a dump at Flintlock. That game IS the issue.

 

[EDMIX]

Armored Core and Dragon's Dogma didn't even have amazing reception. DD2 especially. Plenty of people all over the internet make similar complaints about it that we do about most Western games: Despite 2 generations from the first game, they barely did anything to advance the game.

Funnily, literally all of the stuff you mentioned are sequels/Remakes. Not a great profile for "creativity" the Japanese glazers keep talking about.

I actually agree.

I feel....look maybe better examples can be used lol

I love Japanese games myself, but before anyone wants to get on their fucking high horse understand, I like gamey repetitive type games too at times where I'm completely aware I am playing a dated concept that I'm familiar with and I am completely okay with this, titles like Yakuza or the Resident Evil or even Persona, Bravely Default etc i'm unusually okay with these games because I'm completely familiar with their structure and I don't really care if they do something new or not

So I sometimes think it's funny that when people make these types of negative comments when they hear me saying I'm going to play the new assassin's creed they try to make it sound like this issue has to do with the west as if I'm not fucking playing some other game for very similar reasons regarding something I'm familiar with that I understand as dated that I understand how's repetition that I'm simply playing just to play in Japan


So the sequels and remakes that SlimySnake is even talking about don't necessarily seem to advance game design if anything lots of us praise it because of that familiar design especially stuff like Elden ring and armored core (shit, I'd fucking argue that design is why I even play their games, I'm not seeking something BRAND NEW, its solid and works for them, even if dated)

I don't even get the fucking point of attacking games from the West because the stupid shit of talking about consistency from Japan is the same shit you could fucking say about Assassin's creed or Call of Duty and to my understanding the last final fantasy not even breaking massive records for them compared to the last Assassin's creed


Keep in mind I have no issue with either of this, But I believe some of the same things people are saying about those Japanese studios can be said about those Western studios even to a greater degree because I would argue they're consistency is being proven by record-breaking sales

So I'm not seeing anything from Resident Evil or final fantasy in regards to consistency that is trying to entertain that is not something we similarly get from Call of Duty or Assassin's creed...

They can both be consistent and they both can dated in concept.

Thats completely fine folks.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Looking at the top 25 games from 2024 on Metacritic it really highlight this

Best Games This Year - Metacritic

Metacritic aggregates music, game, tv, and movie reviews from the leading critics. Only Metacritic.com uses METASCORES, which let you know at a glance how each item was reviewed.

www.metacritic.com

Completely comprised of Japanese AAA and indie games

The only western AAA games are ones by studios owned by Sony.

Remember the PS360 era where western AAA ruled and Microsoft, EA, Ubisoft, Activision were all churning out bangers?

 

[Generic]

Looking at the top 25 games from 2024 on Metacritic it really highlight this

Best Games This Year - Metacritic

Metacritic aggregates music, game, tv, and movie reviews from the leading critics. Only Metacritic.com uses METASCORES, which let you know at a glance how each item was reviewed.

www.metacritic.com

Completely comprised of Japanese AAA and indie games

The only western AAA games are ones by studios owned by Sony.

Remember the PS360 era where western AAA ruled and Microsoft, EA, Ubisoft, Activision were all churning out bangers?

Now look at the "most played" list of games.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Now look at the "most played" list of games.

I was talking in terms of quality.

I also remember during the PS360 generation the likes of Capcom, Namco and SquareEnix were all struggling to get decent games out of the door.

What changed to make the tables turn? It feels like we’re back to the PS1/PS2 generation where, barring a few exceptions, all the quality bug games are coming from Japan.

 

[kurisu_1974]

There is a whole world of Japanese games that I would call B-tier but are often very interesting, from companies like Spike Chunsoft, Marvellous, NIS, ...

 

[Kotaro]

Well, doujin means indie, they just use their language. Doujin means self-published.

One of the biggest indie game from Japan and it's a million seller:

What game is this??

 

[Braag]

Let's just say when a big AAA western game gets announced these days, I no longer feel excitement, I just expect the worst and cautiously check it out.

 

[GAFFY]

I see this sentiment a lot on here, and to some extent it's obvious why. If you mostly follow the big tentpole releases from major publishers, I could see how you could convince yourself this is the truth. But as someone who mostly has preferred Japanese games for the vast majority of my playtime for decades, I feel compelled to stand up for western gaming now more than ever. It's just inaccurate to try and pretend that there's no good western games, no gameplay diversity, no new IP. In reality, there's honestly more creativity coming from the west currently than anytime I can recall.

If you're an developer of middling talent, you can go work for a big publisher and take yoga classes and take 4 weeks to do a programming task that takes normal people 45 minutes. But if you're an actually talented developer, you likely have set out to make your own indie studio because here you can actually put out new IP and make whatever you want.

Japan barely has an indie scene. It's 99% western teams making these games. And while Japanese games are great, it's not like they are making new IP non-stop either right now. I can't help but feel like people are just sticking their heads in the sand and completely mischaracterizing what is happening right now. SQEX cranks out remakes and the same IP. Capcom cranks out remakes and the same IP. From Software is working on Demon's Souls 11.

When someone writes that "western games suck," I think that literally all they see is stuff like Concord, Saints Row, I don't even know what else. In reality, this is what western gaming looks like right now. You're getting more genre diversity than anywhere, more new IP, more varied art styles than ever before.

Dungeons of Hinterberg (Austria)

CYGNI (Scotland)

Flintlock (New Zealand)

Solar Ash (US)

Cookie Cutter (England)

Demon School (US)

Jusant (France)

I could literally keep going and list hundreds of these. Lamplighters League, Worldless, Laika, Still Wakes the Deep, Prince of Persia, Pentiment, Citizen Sleeper, Immortality, Sea of Stars, Cocoon and on and on and on. This is probably the best time to be into western games literally ever.

people hate diversity or non-white characters in games.
thats the only problem gaming has.

 

[NanaMiku]

What game is this??

Ender Lilies

WTF the second game is out already?
Ender Magnolia

 

[Dr.Morris79]

WTF the second game is out already?
Ender Magnolia

Have to agree there, wtf? I never noticed it out before either?

That's never come up for me before on Steam. You're the 1st person I've seen mention it

 

[Crayon]

Shut up, round-eye.

 

[Toons]

Some people say a game "sucks" just because it features some real life things they arent entirely comfortable with yet.

That's a very different thing than a game sucking because it has actual huge problems with its story, its gampelay etc.

The line between those two gets blurred beyond any recognition which makes this argument usually a non starter for me. Almost no one not drinking the culture war kool aid says "all western games suck" nor thinks it, because they just don't lol. Theres always been good games coming out and always will be, even more so if you're willing to venture out of your comfort zone.

 

[Hawk The Slayer]

My favorite games are all western

Modded Morrowind
Modded Fallout 3
Modded Fallout New Vegas
Modded Skyrim
Modded Fallout 4

 

[NanaMiku]

Have to agree there, wtf? I never noticed it out before either?

That's never come up for me before on Steam. You're the 1st person I've seen mention it

I knew the game is coming out, but didn't realize it's already out at the beginning of the year lol

 

[Lethal01]

Western AAA games are indeed trash

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Let's just say when a big AAA western game gets announced these days, I no longer feel excitement, I just expect the worst and cautiously check it out.

It’s like you instinctively know it’s going to be some broken unfinished mess.