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[Men_in_Boxes]

I'm playing a game right now (I won't say what it is so as not to attract sidebars) where the animations are great, but the game forces you to watch them all the freaking time. Want to get on your bike? Hold square to watch your character walk over and get on his bike for 1.5 seconds. Want to pick up that gas can? Hold square to watch your character bend down and pick up the gas can for 1.1 seconds. Want to run the opposite direction? Hit right on the left stick and watch your character animate a stop so he resets and heads the other way for .6 seconds.

These animations do look excellent, but I find myself never appreciating them as my eye is always on the objective/enemy in the environment.

You add up all these animation penalties and literally years of your life are lost to watching the same animations over and over again. It's a torture device created by a Dr. Who antagonist.

Red Dead Redemption 2 had this - felt bad. Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain did not - felt good.

Why do developers do this? What's the advantage?

 

[TintoConCasera]

Why do developers do this? What's the advantage?

Immersion maybe.

It also depends on the game. For example KCD had some slow animations but that actually makes you feel part of the world. Also the game's pace is very slow so you really are in no rush to complete the action.

Meanwhile, something like that would have no place in a faster game.

 

[FatallyYours]

Jesus christ, you've already made a thread about days gone and how you don't like it, couldn't you have just put this tripe in that one instead of making a separate crappy thread?

 

[chakadave]

I voted wrong. I loved KZ2 movement and animations.

The problem is that games like Mario do both.

 

[March Climber]

It always felt like an elaborate lie.

The problem with Rockstar’s specific way of animation is that they don’t animate a way of getting out of an animation, and they don’t like animation cancelling in general, so they don’t do much to resolve it and instead market it as a realistic feature.

Humans aren’t stuck opening a door when we open a door. We can stop it halfway, we can slam it shut again, we can peek through it, etc. Rockstar’s animation doesn’t account for this. Most of the time you are locked into an animation that you cannot easily cancel, because they decided to not make specific cancelling animations for every scenario.

MGSV is a really good anti-example to bring up.

 

[The Cockatrice]

A mix of both like TLOU2 for example. It's not as tedious as RDR2 but in combat it's absolutely insane and nothing has surpassed it. Say what you want about their new game, but you can bet your ass, its combat and animations are going to be insane.

 

[Danjin44]

Meet PlatinumGames’ NieR:Automata team! | PlatinumGames Official Blog

PG game designer Takahisa Taura here. It was my pleasure to share some new information and footage from NieR:A […]

www.platinumgames.com

Here’s a common situation: You’re patting yourself on the back for making an animation that looks super-cool and flows really nicely. Then, you put your perfect animation into the game engine and try controlling it, and it dawns on you that it’s too slow, too clunky. With tears in your eyes, you go back and cut away huge parts of your magnificent creation until it finally feels good.

As an animator first and foremost, there’s a lot you can’t help but want to leave in. But you’re not making a movie here – you’re making a game, and it has to be tight and responsive. The truest sign of a skilled game animator is their ability to make something great with the number of frames they’re given.

This how I feel, at end of the day I’m playing games and I want it to be responsive and fun to control.

 

[March Climber]

Meet PlatinumGames’ NieR:Automata team! | PlatinumGames Official Blog

PG game designer Takahisa Taura here. It was my pleasure to share some new information and footage from NieR:A […]

www.platinumgames.com

This how I feel, at end of the day I’m playing games I want to responsive and fun to control.

If only Rockstar loyalists were just slightly more receptive to their competitor games, we might have had a franchise competitor still alive today, like True Crime/Sleeping Dogs.

 

[Filben]

Some games don't need tight responsive controls. First to think of are walking simulators. Or in general, games that put more emphasis on storytelling first and center before anything else.

I think there a good ways to balance this, though. Looking at Max Payne 3, it had ultra precise controls despite Max showing weight in his movements. Same goes for TLOU2.

 

[R6Rider]

A mix of both like TLOU2 for example. It's not as tedious as RDR2 but in combat it's absolutely insane and nothing has surpassed it. Say what you want about their new game, but you can bet your ass, its combat and animations are going to be insane.

This.

It's a good blend. It feels good to play.

 

[Hugare]

It always felt like an elaborate lie.

The problem with Rockstar’s specific way of animation is that they don’t animate a way of getting out of an animation, and they don’t like animation cancelling in general, so they don’t do much to resolve it and instead market it as a realistic feature.

Humans aren’t stuck opening a door when we open a door. We can stop it halfway, we can slam it shut again, we can peek through it, etc. Rockstar’s animation doesn’t account for this. Most of the time you are locked into an animation that you cannot easily cancel, because they decided to not make specific cancelling animations for every scenario.

MGSV is a really good anti-example to bring up.

And by doing so, Venom Snake moves like he used 1 ton of cocaine while sprinting or during CQC. It's not realistic, but stylized.

There should be a middle ground. Such as:

A mix of both like TLOU2 for example. It's not as tedious as RDR2 but in combat it's absolutely insane and nothing has surpassed it. Say what you want about their new game, but you can bet your ass, its combat and animations are going to be insane.

TLOU's animation blending system is incredible. Uncharted and TLOU were already amazing animation wise, but II is a masterclass.

I have hope that R* will do something similar in GTA VI, but they probably wont.

AC Unity was also great in terms of weight/responsiveness. All of the AC games after that looked bad in terms of animation.

 

[Danjin44]

If only Rockstar loyalists were just slightly more receptive to their competitor games, we might have had a franchise competitor still alive today, like True Crime/Sleeping Dogs.

Rockstar fans keep saying its for sake of immersion but in games like RDR2 it doesn’t fully commit to that either. The whole wanted system and mission design throws the whole “immersion” out the window.

 

[Codes 208]

Depends on the game. If its intentionally cinematic (like stray) then I’m fine with longer animation wind-ups, but its not something I’d want in games that are snappier or need precise controls to be effective like mario, sonic or cod

 

[Digital-Aftertaste]

Something something Zenless Zone Zero something something

 

[ToneyJ]

Game animation is supposed to be aesthetically appealing, communicate information to the player and is meant to make the visual feedback from game mechanics more satisfying. It should also never negatively impact responsiveness.

For masterclass in recent game animation, look at Zenless Zone Zero. Incredible animation and also a very responsive game.

Something something Zenless Zone Zero something something

Yes!

 

[Bartski]

And where exactly do you draw the line. Should Deacon just teleport in top of the bike rather than climb it? How about lets skip opening doors. Press x to zap over to the other side. Respecting players time!

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

There is no advantage, and there's no added feeling of immersion. As you'd mentioned, MGS5 did a spectacularly good job with this. Everything was fluidly animated and felt natural, but it didn't come at the expense of responsiveness (shame about the actual overarching game design, but that's something else entirely.)

It's bad design to prioritize animation over responsive feeling. Naughty Dog is probably the worst offender, but this is kind of Western AAA developers' MO.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Some games don't need tight responsive controls. First to think of are walking simulators. Or in general, games that put more emphasis on storytelling first and center before anything else.

I think there a good ways to balance this, though. Looking at Max Payne 3, it had ultra precise controls despite Max showing weight in his movements. Same goes for TLOU2.

I just can't imagine a game with strict animation priority being worse if it had tight, responsive controls.

I do understand it in a combat sense. Committing to attacks and wind ups is a game in and of itself, but just sluggishly moving through the environment and picking things up in an annoying matter always feels awful.

 

[March Climber]

And by doing so, Venom Snake moves like he used 1 ton of cocaine while sprinting or during CQC. It's not realistic, but stylized.

There should be a middle ground. Such as:



TLOU's animation blending system is incredible. Uncharted and TLOU were already amazing animation wise, but II is a masterclass.

I have hope that R* will do something similar in GTA VI, but they probably wont.

AC Unity was also great in terms of weight/responsiveness. All of the AC games after that looked bad in terms of animation.

You are focusing on the wrong part of my post. Regardless of the game used as an anti-example, we should be in agreeance about Rockstar being stubborn about their way of doing things.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

There is no advantage

Rockstar Games and the developers of the secret game mentioned in the OP would beg to differ, but what would their argument be?

Do they think it helps sell the game? The animations to LOOK nice, they just don't PLAY nice.

 

[Kataploom]

The only value they provide imo, is to punish button mashing in games with very tactic real time combat. Other than that, please let me cancel long animations, the ones I hate the most are long fire weapon reload, god I hate them, specially in fast paced online shooters

 

[Digital-Aftertaste]

Monster Hunter is a good example of animation times to input responses being part of the gameplay, since the combat is designed around fighting game fundamentals but with more pronounced vulnerability frames, along with invincibility frames if World and Wilds has still kept that for the dodge rolls.

 

[Danjin44]

Monster Hunter is a good example of animation times to input responses being part of the gameplay, since the combat is designed around fighting game fundamentals but with more pronounced vulnerability frames, along with invincibility frames if World and Wilds has still kept that for the dodge rolls.

That game is all about studying monster’s moves and behaviour and find opening for your attacks because depending on your weapon once you start attacking you are committing to that attack.

 

[Hugare]

You are focusing on the wrong part of my post. Regardless of the game used as an anti-example, we should be in agreeance about Rockstar being stubborn about their way of doing things.

Just took the opportunity to say a few things about MGS V, thats all.

Its often regarded as one of the best animated 3rd person games, and sure, it is. But at the expense of realism. MGS has wacky stuff like vampires and psycho mantis, but Snake is still human, or at least should be.

Ubi has an amazing opportunity with Splinter Cell remake to make animations that really shine. SC was always a series ahead of its time on this aspect.

 

[TerribleAtThisGame]

A mix of both like TLOU2 for example. It's not as tedious as RDR2 but in combat it's absolutely insane and nothing has surpassed it. Say what you want about their new game, but you can bet your ass, its combat and animations are going to be insane.

This. TLoU2 nails it. That game feels really fucking good to play in general.

 

[GymWolf]

Immersion and some people like me actually prefer heaviness over average japanese skating characters with ultra fast, kinda weightless animations (with some exceptions like mh, mgs5 and some others)

The graphic are getting too realistic to have shitty animations, games are not still frame pics.

Also, days gone is pretty snappy, it is nothing compared to stuff like rdr2.

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

Rockstar Games and the developers of the secret game mentioned in the OP would beg to differ, but what would their argument be?

Do they think it helps sell the game? The animations to LOOK nice, they just don't PLAY nice.

The animations look nice, and most people aren't discerning enough to realize that the game plays like shit. Which is okay - unless you've played a game that does it right, a random player isn't going to know any better. Most people go into a Rockstar game because 1) It's popular and they've heard of it, 2) It's conceptually interesting, 3) The gameplay is still functional, even if the mechanics are largely shit because of this exact problem.

Basically, most of the target audience doesn't realize how much better the game could be if the developers had different priorities.

 

[clarky]

I voted wrong. I loved KZ2 movement and animations.

The problem is that games like Mario do both.

When does Mario have long animations and slow player responsiveness? I take it you are talking about the mainline games?

 

[GymWolf]

The animations look nice, and most people aren't discerning enough to realize that the game plays like shit. Which is okay - unless you've played a game that does it right, a random player isn't going to know any better. Most people go into a Rockstar game because 1) It's popular and they've heard of it, 2) It's conceptually interesting, 3) The gameplay is still functional, even if the mechanics are largely shit because of this exact problem.

Basically, most of the target audience doesn't realize how much better the game could be if the developers had different priorities.

I think you are selling short how much rockstar fans love the euphoria engine and how it make the game feel different from any other game.

A super snappy gta without euphoria engine would not be the same game at all, the game has a distinct personality and it has been like this since gta4.

No offense, but 99,99% of games have snappier controls than rockstar games and no euphoria engine, can we at least have one game every 10 years that use the most advanced and dynamic animation system on the market?? i don't think it's too much to ask.

It's ok if some folks hate rockstar controls, not every game is for everyone and they definitely have enough people who love how their games feel to make bank.

 

[RoboFu]

Go play that game then come back and answer.

 

[pudel]

Both are fine.

I like it more when its fast and snappy. But if its slower (like rockstar games) you just get used to it very quickly. I agree that some animations sometimes really get boring quickly when you have to do them over and over again. But it is how it is...and sometimes you can even mod these things out on pc.

Its okay when not every game is like the other. I dont want to play the same game over and over, right!?

 

[K' Dash]

It depends on the game, if it has great exploration and it is kinda slow paced, the animations need to be good, if it something more fast paced, then I don't mind if they cut corners

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Both are fine.

I like it more when its fast and snappy. But if its slower (like rockstar games) you just get used to it very quickly.

Isn't that like saying "You get used to the odor from Dirty Sanchez pretty quick so it's OK."

There are definitely games that benefit from animation priority when it's baked into the gameplay systems, but I'm sorry, holding square to cut a Lillac flower the one hundreth time is not OK. It's the Dirty Sanchez of videogames.

 

[pudel]

Isn't that like saying "You get used to the odor from Dirty Sanchez pretty quick so it's OK."

There are definitely games that benefit from animation priority when it's baked into the gameplay systems, but I'm sorry, holding square to cut a Lillac flower the one hundreth time is not OK. It's the Dirty Sanchez of videogames.

I mean its a game. Usually that means you get a certain ruleset and have to deal with it in order to win. But I agree...i am not a big fan of "holding down" mechanics and having animations for flower/herb picking...i would mod this out if possible. Or if I would be the dev...not even put it in to begin with. Its nice and funny if you have to do it only a few times....but if thats a returning mechanic over the whole game...its bad, yes.