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When did game development get to the point where millions of sales wasn't good enough?

Fbh

Member
Innovation of gameplay rarely sells games. Successfull innovation is a thing you can't predict - devs might think that new gameplay is innovative, but players will think that it's boring, stupid or crazy - and such innovations no one wants to play.
You have a whole indi scene where every pit filled to a brim with various "innovations" and 99.9% of them are rotting in those pits. Only a very few successed and those gameplay mechanics quickly adopted into higher budget tiers. And most are not even innovation, like Souls-like and Rogue-like, it's just old but niche gameplay became popular for whatever reason.
Mass market wants high production values, not some obscure artistic "innovative" hardly playable stuff.

It's all about setting expectations.
The mass market wants high production values because most of the AAA industry has spent the last decades setting the expectation that each new game needs to have even better graphics and more content than the previous. That has left us in this scenario with 6 years long development cycles with hundreds of employees making games that need to sell 8+ million units to be profitable.

Fromsoft is a good example.
They never focused on graphics so at this point their fanbase doesn't expect them. No one cares if Elden Ring doesn't look as graphically impressive as Demon Souls Remake, no one cares if Armored Core 6 doesn't look as good as Horizon Forbidden West, no one cares if they recycle some animations and assets from like 10 years ago.
If Fromsoft had spent the last 10 years focusing on improving the graphics and production values of their games then eventually that's what people would expect from every new game from them. And now we'd be waiting 6 years for their next game because they'd have to ensure it pushes even better graphics or their audience will be upset.

Same with Nintendo.
That Zelda game later this year will probably sell 5+ million units and make more money in a few months than TLOU2 probably did in a few years.
Why? Because Nintendo stopped building their brand and appeal on production values so they can "get away" with selling a simple looking game .
If every new Zelda looked as good as Hellblade 2 then eventually that's what people would expect.
 

fallingdove

Member
This is the topic. I asked why. Smaller teams made ground breaking games for 30 years then in the past 10 years, everything has been "this game that isn't better than the last few gens sold 4x more than the previous games, and its not profitable". I think there's more of a budgeting issue than cost of games.
Smaller teams didn't make ground breaking games up until 10 years ago.

Budgets just overtook the typical profit that video games could expect — accelerated by the fact that gamers complain about every $5 increment they have to spend on a game to the point that minimum viability requires your game have perfect graphics/animation/cutscenes/story/lighting/physics, a dozen entries in the series, an insanely addicting gameplay loop, an art style never seen before, unmatched scope, or you are a Nintendo game.
 

Felessan

Member
It's all about setting expectations.
The mass market wants high production values because most of the AAA industry has spent the last decades setting the expectation that each new game needs to have even better graphics and more content than the previous. That has left us in this scenario with 6 years long development cycles with hundreds of employees making games that need to sell 8+ million units to be profitable.
It's a bullshit. You probably think that mass market are dumb and can be led anywhere - it's not.

Fromsoft is a good example.
They never focused on graphics so at this point their fanbase doesn't expect them. No one cares if Elden Ring doesn't look as graphically impressive as Demon Souls Remake, no one cares if Armored Core 6 doesn't look as good as Horizon Forbidden West, no one cares if they recycle some animations and assets from like 10 years ago.
If Fromsoft had spent the last 10 years focusing on improving the graphics and production values of their games then eventually that's what people would expect from every new game from them. And now we'd be waiting 6 years for their next game because they'd have to ensure it pushes even better graphics or their audience will be upset.
Elden Ring is a 200mil game that copied it's gameplay from previous games. Zero innovations. It's exactly what modern AAA game do.
And high production values does not mean super-modern engine tech for sure now. Art, animations, setting story, small details etc (and Elden Ring spend a lot on these for sure) are more important for value perception. Top graphics exists only in small niche games like DSR, HB2 etc that are not even AAA.
 

Kamina

Golden Boy
Everyone and their grandma wants to make AAA titles and is willing to invest boatloads of money, which can only be covered by 10s of Millions of sales.
However high production values don’t ensure “good gams”. If the gameplay and/or story sucks, or if it is once again GaaS trash made to milk players, the game may fall short of expectations, leaving greedy publishers and their developers dumbstruck.
 
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Nickolaidas

Member
I've been gaming for a really long time and I remember when Diablo 2 hit it's milestone of a million sales. It was a huge deal. Selling millions in the 80s/90s and into 00s was just a bit more rare. Eventually, games got more and more popular and for some reason it seems like we've hit a point where too many games have to hit 10s of millions to recoup. What's the deal with that?

Even indie games I'll see something stating that a million sales didn't help them recover loses. Indie games. How? And given how graphics haven't jumped this gen to astronomical wow levels, I have no idea what these budgets are going towards. Halo Infinite is a good example of bloat budgets. There's nothing revolutionary about this game but it had some incredible budget that wasn't justified.

Games are supposed to take way longer yet they're not giving us gameplay that's much better than the previous two gens. And with more advanced tools like the new UE, it seems that the games should be easier and cheaper to make. Wasn't that Matrix Awakens demo, while not a full game, done in less than a month?
I think people here answered the question perfectly. Back in the 8-bit era, all it took was one guy to make a game in like, three weeks. Now, it takes 500 people, 6 years of development, marketing, licensing fees, and a need to make a game which takes about 200 hours to 'see everything'.
It's different when game devs own their own studio. Stellar Blade, for instance, sold "only" 1.4 million (last I heard), but that is enough for them to keep going, to keep making games. They don't have shareholders barking at them for more money and higher profits.
Well, they went public just recently, so expect to see more of the same pitfalls with that company too.
Since Corporate CEOs and investors took over gaming.
Now constant growth is all that matters for game development, and CEOs and company executives still want their massive bonuses even if it's at the expense of the game and the game developers actually making the games.
Yup. Publishers see X game selling a gazillion copies, so they want the same profits for their game. Games are no longer made with innovation or fun in mind - instead they are made with a 'how much money can we milk from our consumers?' mentality.
yea, thats what happens when you keep the price the same for several generations.
So, what, I should be paying half the price of a PS5 for each game, now?
Somehow that she-hulk tv show was $225M across 9 episodes. There was talk about this in the OT way back. $25M/episode.

It came from articles. And one guy was shocked saying at $225M you could had made a Hollywood movie.

Crazy.

Similar to tech companies, a lot of media have insane budgets where some reason nothing is ever too much or too over budget.
Yup, She-Hulk is definitely a living embodiment of mismanagement and piss-poor choices during development.
No one cares if Elden Ring doesn't look as graphically impressive as Demon Souls Remake,
Well, someone definitely missed all those complaints about Elden Ring not looking as good as DS Remake here and on Reddit when the first screenshots came out.
 

Ozzie666

Member
I think the 3DS and the GBA were the last systems where development costs were well in control. Nintendo and the Switch maybe too, but I hope it continues for the next gen. Cost control and hard ware limitations are important. PC gaming is dangerous, just look at Star Citizen or whatever, unlimited power and less limitations.

PS3 and beyond, budgets, management, return on investments, stock holders, ceo salaries just got way out of control. The success and bragging of games like HALO bringing in more than Hollywood block busters, attention was paid and investors flocked. Not the most stable of industries to invest in, with flops left and right.

I personally blame America and American corporate culture and the flow on affects. Sorry America, but it's out of control. Most the world survived the 83 Atari Video game crash, this time America, your taking us down with you ;p

Partially kidding, don't hate.
 
There's so many small indie dev teams embarrassing these massive pubs/devs, the answer is simple.

As I get older I'm starting to see, It never goes well when more humans get involved. At work, in relationships, in general.The more humans the more ego, pride, and ignorance
 

Hypereides

Gold Member
Innovation of gameplay rarely sells games. Successfull innovation is a thing you can't predict - devs might think that new gameplay is innovative, but players will think that it's boring, stupid or crazy - and such innovations no one wants to play.
You have a whole indi scene where every pit filled to a brim with various "innovations" and 99.9% of them are rotting in those pits. Only a very few successed and those gameplay mechanics quickly adopted into higher budget tiers. And most are not even innovation, like Souls-like and Rogue-like, it's just old but niche gameplay became popular for whatever reason.
Mass market wants high production values, not some obscure artistic "innovative" hardly playable stuff.
Sounds like you may be one of these types who hangs out in boardrooms on a regular basis. What do you define as an "innovation"? What determines if its "boring, stupid or crazy"? Does that mean any kind of innovation should be halted entirely? Should companies just stop trying?

Look at the current state of AAA. Its fully stagnated thanks to this notion that innovating is "pointless" and "doesn't sell". Its some times hard to believe this is supposed to be the "premier" AAA output coming from the gaming industry. Maybe we're at a point where AAA has become too risk averse for its own good. High fidelity presentation will only carry you so far until it inevitably peaks. Then what? Buy out or takeover a promising company with fresh semi-popular IPs to continue the cycle of exploitation anew?

Maybe the partial blame lies within the marketing departments who fail to do their job accordingly and figure out proper ways to make the masses excited about something that's new and different that's the core issue. Not the innovation itself entirely. Perhaps you should consider its how that innovation is wrapped and presented instead. Of course, it will also come down to how strongly and determined the creative team believes in that vision will bring in an audience.

Unique ideas can still attract new audiences regardless what some stats or graphs would probably tell you out of a spreadsheet. AAA has a massive opportunity to be far more successful than those "rotting indies" in pioneering and exposing the world to new ideas due to their capacity and capital.

Perhaps it might be time for western AAA to make some waves that may seem counter intuitive to their current modus operandi.
 
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Nickolaidas

Member
I think the industry needs to sit back, unwind, go smaller, but unfortunately, that's not how corporations work, which is why a video game crash is what is going to be needed to course-correct. Video games need to stop being mainstream in order to stop being the #1 entertainment avenue, so that investors can go away and let the industry heal itself. Give games back to gamers, not suits.

So until that mythical thing which will replace video games as top entertainment is revealed, I don't know how the industry is going to get out of this problem.
 

sigmaZ

Member
The marketshare is too big and corporations have optimized many parts of the market for optimal profit, feeding off sheep and whales. The people who defend mindless payment schemes, etc. are equally culpable, but sheep gonna sheep. There are still corporations that try to balance ambitious creative projects vs ones more likely to be more profitable, but since the market is being so highly optimized for profit, when an ambitious project fails to generative enough profit, there's pressure to adopt more optimized methods of development. This can only be done by completely banning pay as you go experiences imo, but I am not sure that SHOULD be done. I just know that it is having a huge impact on the market. On the other, it also generates a lot more revenue which attracts more investment and can help companies fund bigger, more ambitious projects, so it's a double-edged sword.
chocolate fountain GIF
 

Felessan

Member
It's different when game devs own their own studio. Stellar Blade, for instance, sold "only" 1.4 million (last I heard), but that is enough for them to keep going, to keep making games. They don't have shareholders barking at them for more money and higher profits.
It's funny how people don't know what they are talking about.
SB developer a) partly owned by Tencent b) has NIKKE (yes, that F2P anime gacha gaas everyone hates) as primary source of revenue.
SB for them is just a pet project that allows them to throw costumes and events for free as they for sure not depend on SB success to meet their end needs.

Sounds like you may be one of these types who hangs out in boardrooms on a regular basis. What do you define as an "innovation"? What determines if its "boring, stupid or crazy"? Does that mean any kind of innovation should be halted entirely? Should companies just stop trying?

Look at the current state of AAA. Its fully stagnated thanks to this notion that innovating is "pointless" and "doesn't sell". Its some times hard to believe this is supposed to be the "premier" AAA output coming from the gaming industry. Maybe we're at a point where AAA has become too risk averse for its own good. High fidelity presentation will only carry you so far until it inevitably peaks. Then what? Buy out or takeover a promising company with fresh semi-popular IPs to continue the cycle of exploitation anew?
Innovation by itself is meaningless. Only those innovations that people like and want are required innovations, everything else is just some shit ideas dozen for a penny.
No one will allocated 200 mil for some half-baked idea that only good in the head of inventor. Because it's a fast way to loose money, and corp are for earning money, not loose them.

No one saying that there are should be no innovation. But everything has it right time and place. And innovation place is a small teams on small budgets - startups and indies where ideas can be tested and proven and transform from some wild delusional fantasies to something real and interesting. And after proof of concepts actually proven themselves - scaling takes place. This is how this world, and not just gaming, works.

It actually takes a lot of time and efforts and several not so performing iterations to make it from idea to an implementation popular in mass market. All really innovative stuff like smartphones, social networks, messengers etc took many years and several iterations to get widespread recognition. It took almost 30 years for Elden Ring to became what it is now and first games in the series (kings field) certainly not justify current AAA budgets as the idea and it's implementation was still too rough and flawed back then

Current state of AAA is just fine as it do what it's expected to do - make a high quality product that people wants and expect, not some weird experiments. It's works just fine, it earns corps money (they are not particularly in red for the most part) - it's how matured industry works. All of big companies have their own sandboxes where they experiments on small projects (internal accelerators) but its not affect how AAA structured
Look at Apple and iphone - they has less innovations than any other phone maker. They implement featurea years later than pioneers. And they still on the top, because they make quality and not some junky and glitchy half-baked "innovation". And unless they miss some big paradigm shift - they will be just fine with current approach. And of course they will have quite a hefty sum of money.
 
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ProtoByte

Weeb Underling
Think of Tango Gameworks, for instance. They weren't shut down because their game wasn't profitable. They were shut down because their game wasn't profitable enough. It didn't generate the income that a robust GaaS title would, or even a blockbuster AAA title. That's where all the money and investment is getting funneled now, at least in the big, publicly traded corporations. As gaming has gotten bigger and more corporate, we've seen more of this. The demands for profit keep rising.
I don't think that's a fact. Hifi Rush was in dev for 4-5 years, and flopped everywhere. It didn't sell and didn't get played very much on Gamepass, and definitely didn't increase Gamepass subscriptions.

I can very easily see their purchase by Krafton turning out like those Embracer acquisitions.

It's different when game devs own their own studio. Stellar Blade, for instance, sold "only" 1.4 million (last I heard), but that is enough for them to keep going, to keep making games. They don't have shareholders barking at them for more money and higher profits.
As Felessan Felessan has pointed out, this isn't true. You'll find a lot of less prolific studios, self owned or otherwise (which Shift Up is not) are maintained by some type of recurring revenue stream. I mean, even look at Square Enix. Look at Tencent, whom Shift Up is backed by, and their myriad of glorified gachas.
 
By the way, speaking of figuring out ways to remain profitable, the way the big 3 have decided to do this are different. Microsoft is cutting costs and moving towards purely services/publishing, and Sony is sticking with their hardware business but choosing to expand their userbase by going after PC players with multiplayer and GAAS. Nintendo isn't changing their video game business as much (at least nothing that has been announced or rumored) but they are expanding their IP licensing and entrance into other forms of entertainment (movies, theme parks, toys, very Disney-like approach).

One thing is clear, the business can't be allowed to stagnate.
 

Hypereides

Gold Member
(...)

Innovation by itself is meaningless. Only those innovations that people like and want are required innovations, everything else is just some shit ideas dozen for a penny.
No one will allocated 200 mil for some half-baked idea that only good in the head of inventor. Because it's a fast way to loose money, and corp are for earning money
, not loose them.

No one saying that there are should be no innovation. But everything has it right time and place. And innovation place is a small teams on small budgets - startups and indies where ideas can be tested and proven and transform from some wild delusional fantasies to something real and interesting. And after proof of concepts actually proven themselves - scaling takes place. This is how this world, and not just gaming, works.
You didn't answer the question: what do you deem as an "innovation" and, let me add, when would you classify it as redundant or "meaningless"? What does a "shitty idea" entail? Is it something thats foreign to you? Is something "delusional" because you may not understand it and therefore reject it? Do you have any examples to illustrate your point?

The fact that you call it "meaningless" shows you speaks from a position of a non-creator whose disassociated with this "lowly" gaming community. Not to mention, possesses marginal imagination to see/perceive the potential value from the average gamer. Its little to no surprise western AAA has plateaued if unimaginative people with this perception populate and run the show up top. Look, I fully understand this is a business, not a charity. However, your concern over profitability seems to far outweigh that of the creative aspect. Seeing this industry from an only and strictly monetary pov, in a creative industry no less, is negligent and detrimental. It will eventually slap you in the face.

We're beginning to see mid budget AA and select indie developers emerge and that are becoming an actual threat to AAA. If AAA persists the way it does, and if those AA studios catch up, then the real stress test of the AAA model will begin. By that time, ripping off "shitty amateurs" may not save them.

Current state of AAA is just fine as it do what it's expected to do - make a high quality product that people wants and expect, not some weird experiments. It's works just fine, it earns corps money (they are not particularly in red for the most part) - it's how matured industry works. All of big companies have their own sandboxes where they experiments on small projects (internal accelerators) but its not affect how AAA structured
Look at Apple and iphone - they has less innovations than any other phone maker. They implement featurea years later than pioneers. And they still on the top, because they make quality and not some junky and glitchy half-baked "innovation". And unless they miss some big paradigm shift - they will be just fine with current approach. And of course they will have quite a hefty sum of money.
Lets leave Apple's business out of this equation. They are incomparable in this case and service an adjacent, but different field.

There's the issue. They've gone from being actual creations to cynical business driven products. Most AAA games have been reduced to "sterile assembly line" products. They carry barely any ounce of authenticity in them. No human element whatsoever. They're no different than test tube embryos. Trying to disguise that lack with their high production values is a strategy that will eventually wear out. Western AAA has already become over reliant on 10 year old templates and reused gameplay with a glossy coat of paint slapped on top. Eventually those templates will run their course.

Of all AAA companies the only exception to this rule would probably be From software. Somehow they've managed to avoid getting fully engulfed in pure corporatism and maintain some semblance of artistic integrity. Same can not be said about the western counterpart. Their western AAA peers could perhaps jot down a note or two from them.

The way I see it, most of the actual talent and valuable creators (read: not auteurs) have long since flown away from AAA. The corporate work environment isn't appealing to them or has ousted them. If you wonder why those AAA incubator projects keep turning out to be duds, maybe that's why.

It all went to shit after RTS games died.
There's been a recent revelation, from a former EA developer, that EA stopped developing RTS like C&C due to some marketing suit concluded they didn't know how to market them. They fired an entire team of circa 50 people instead of replacing that one marketing guy. Take that as you will.
 
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Hudo

Member
There's been a recent revelation, from a former EA developer, that EA stopped developing RTS like C&C due to some marketing suit concluded they didn't know how to market them. They fired an entire team of circa 50 people instead of replacing that one marketing guy. Take that as you will.
This is the saddest and most infuriating shit I have heard all week...

Thanks for telling me, tho...
 

IAmRei

Member
either people who look often for grander scale which is equivalent with larger production budget, which mean time and cost expand greatly.
or company who doesnt have creativity and use RAW power to best visual over gameplay templates, raw power cost more budgets

i already said this when people started to see the game are only for visual, graphic, cinematic, all over gameplay which started in 2006-2008 i think.

It is unpopular opinion back then, and i believe this kind of opinion will remain the same today. some people keep asking for better (expensive) graphic, and yet they only want to keep the price $60 or possibly lower.
 

Felessan

Member
You didn't answer the question: what do you deem as an "innovation" and, let me add, when would you classify it as redundant or "meaningless"? What does a "shitty idea" entail? Is it something thats foreign to you? Is something "delusional" because you may not understand it and therefore reject it? Do you have any examples to illustrate your point?

The fact that you call it "meaningless" shows you speaks from a position of a non-creator whose disassociated with this "lowly" gaming community. Not to mention, possesses marginal imagination to see/perceive the potential value from the average gamer. Its little to no surprise western AAA has plateaued if unimaginative people with this perception populate and run the show up top. Look, I fully understand this is a business, not a charity. However, your concern over profitability seems to far outweigh that of the creative aspect. Seeing this industry from an only and strictly monetary pov, in a creative industry no less, is negligent and detrimental. It will eventually slap you in the face.

We're beginning to see mid budget AA and select indie developers emerge and that are becoming an actual threat to AAA. If AAA persists the way it does, and if those AA studios catch up, then the real stress test of the AAA model will begin. By that time, ripping off "shitty amateurs" may not save them.


Lets leave Apple's business out of this equation. They are incomparable in this case and service an adjacent, but different field.

There's the issue. They've gone from being actual creations to cynical business driven products. Most AAA games have been reduced to "sterile assembly line" products. They carry barely any ounce of authenticity in them. No human element whatsoever. They're no different than test tube embryos. Trying to disguise that lack with their high production values is a strategy that will eventually wear out. Western AAA has already become over reliant on 10 year old templates and reused gameplay with a glossy coat of paint slapped on top. Eventually those templates will run their course.

Of all AAA companies the only exception to this rule would probably be From software. Somehow they've managed to avoid getting fully engulfed in pure corporatism and maintain some semblance of artistic integrity. Same can not be said about the western counterpart. Their western AAA peers could perhaps jot down a note or two from them.

The way I see it, most of the actual talent and valuable creators (read: not auteurs) have long since flown away from AAA. The corporate work environment isn't appealing to them or has ousted them. If you wonder why those AAA incubator projects keep turning out to be duds, maybe that's why.


There's been a recent revelation, from a former EA developer, that EA stopped developing RTS like C&C due to some marketing suit concluded they didn't know how to market them. They fired an entire team of circa 50 people instead of replacing that one marketing guy. Take that as you will.
Innovation should have 2 aspects - first it's something new, second - it brings to a product something that consumer perceives as additional value.

And this value (and not money) is the most important and the hardest part of innovation. I bet your never tried to put your "bright idea" into practice or manage others "bright ideas" to see how this innovation process work in reality. It's hard and long process with lots of setbacks. DEA for example is a perfect idea on the paper and the world spent whole 20th century implementing and benefitting from it (woman rights, banning of segregation etc). Current DEA got heavily derailed and has completely shit implementation in games that everyone hates. It's an "innovation" that is not bringing a value to consumers and widely perceived as shitty idea.

You just want some fictional world and have little idea just how hard is to first to find a good new idea and then how to polish to make it popular. By the time it got polished enough for AAA expectations - it's already "old and boring usual stuff".
It's hard to understand the full scope of ideas, without practice as you vision only focus on good ideas and ignoring bad, but in practice it's hard to tell beforehand which idea is good and which is bad, especially when actual implementation of idea impact heavily result and it's a problem in itself. Even carefully selected, only 1 idea of 10 will be regarded as innovation, 3 will be be neutral to somewhat positive improvement and the rest will be perceived as unnecessary, bloating or straight harmfull to gameplay, reducing perception of the game (worse perception, less sales, less money)
I would point to FF7R2 as an example - it has tons of mini games. One of which is really good and widely acclaimed (QB), some of them ok. Half of mini games are straight out bad and some are fucking insane (piano for example). Someone did approve all of them and thought that they all might be innovative.

There is a reason why "creators" rarely given a blank check. Creators themselves often wine about this "we are creators, just give us money and not interrupt our work". But in reality creators overvalue their work most of the time, so for healthy company creators always should be kept in check - does their creation create value, does this value more that it was spent on it? If not - it's not a commercial creativity and thus should be left to amateurs who can create out of passion not bothering about negative net value. Companies cannot afford this as they will go defunct and all people will lose jobs for the sake of ego of creator.

AAA doesn't really threatened by indi and AA because AAA steals proven and popular mechanics all the time. When those mechanics proven to work and be popular - AA simply becomes new AAA. AAA don't close door for innovation, they just play it safe. They for sure will not be the next Mihoyo, but at least they will not have Square moment where company barely avoid bancrupcy (twice) because people in charge decided to pursue some bright and innovative (as they thought) ideas.

Let's look at one of the highest pillar of AAA gaming - CoD. Does it threatened by innovation of indies? Not really. Does it adapt to a changing environments? Yes, it adds new modes, it created a warzone to tap F2P market. It "adopt" zombie rush, BR innovations in gameplay. It's hold on MP shooters space is as strong as ever.

And what innovation does From Software have? They are bona fide AAA developer now, they just went through whole curve of "innovation" - from niche to A to AA and finally to AAA game. What new is in Elden Ring? Open world that are proven mechanics? Being Souls-like with tens of games in genre where previous installments already sold over 10M? What really did ER innovate?
 
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efyu_lemonardo

May I have a cookie?
The key areas to pay attention to, in my opinion, are:
1)Talented and experienced development teams are necessary for more efficient execution.
2) Good planning and management are necessary for setting the appropriate restrictions for the project.

When you don't have both of these at the same time, production is inefficient and planning is poor. The result is a waste of resources.

And having both doesn't come along as often as you think, especially when turnover rate is so high and especially in an industry that strives to constantly do what's never been done before.

Poor management leads to burnout which leads to high turnover. Lack of experience leads to expensive mistakes which lead to bankruptcy.
Lack of talent leads to unattractive products and low profits.

Perhaps unintuitively:
Constant technological change comes at a cost both to creativity and expertise, for both development and management.
High budgets are more often than not detrimental to the quality of a product.
Add to these high turnover and you've got yourself a mess.

tl;dr there is a huge difference between what the best teams together with the best managers can produce under the best conditions, and what an average team and average management can produce under common conditions.
 
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Bernardougf

Member
Greedy CEO’s, bloated budgets and unreal expectations of profit. These companies today want every game they make to be the next moneymaker like Fortnite. Then when reality sets in despite decent sales it’s still not enough. It’s never enough for them and that’s why you have this problem….greed. Pure and simple. Just look at the recent story with the Bungie exec and his collection of cars. If that doesn’t clue you in then nothing will.
Its a problem that started with hiring practices in the west but its multi-factorial... you have bloated studios with incompetent diversity hires, you have not important shit (knitting classes ? Wtf?) Distracting your work force, you want to do big 80-100 hours bloated games with top end graphics, it became unsustainable... not every game can be GTA and sell 100 millions copys.

Aim for work efficient, assemble your studios and hire better only by merit, fuck off with not important shit, you there to work so work, do smaller 20-30 hour max games, invest in inovation and gameplay, graphics are more than fine since the middle of last gen no need to spend hours to make your puddle reflect better.

Devs teams are running wild with budgets and timeframes using whatever excuse they can, specialy 4 year old covid.
 
Its a problem that started with hiring practices in the west but its multi-factorial... you have bloated studios with incompetent diversity hires, you have not important shit (knitting classes ? Wtf?) Distracting your work force, you want to do big 80-100 hours bloated games with top end graphics, it became unsustainable... not every game can be GTA and sell 100 millions copys.

Aim for work efficient, assemble your studios and hire better only by merit, fuck off with not important shit, you there to work so work, do smaller 20-30 hour max games, invest in inovation and gameplay, graphics are more than fine since the middle of last gen no need to spend hours to make your puddle reflect better.

Devs teams are running wild with budgets and timeframes using whatever excuse they can, specialy 4 year old covid.
All very true. Well said.
 

PeteBull

Member
Now since we got example of game with good planned budget(robocop rogue city), lets show example of terrible budgeted game that destroyed its ip/franchise and made its dev studio clousure:
Hereby i introduce u to

This game had everything that makes any game fall:
Terrible character design(fortnite alike, super inclusive aka dei- very offputing to any fan of the series, u literally were rooting for the bad guys in the annoucement trailer coz they at least didnt look liike pussies).
Big budget, long time in production including 6 months delay.
High expectations in terms of sales from both dev studio and publisher- known ip, huge budget etc.
Terrible story, tons of bugs, "purple look".
Below avg reviews(for a big budget game its a death sentence) despite many professional journos inflating the review score.
Target was ofc the unicorn, aka "modern audience", so not fans of the franchise but totally new crowd(which doesnt play this genre of games, they only post on twitter;p).

What was result which we- players- predicted righht after announcement trailer?
In November 2022, Embracer Group stated that Saints Row "did not meet the full expectations and left the fanbase partially polarized", but financially "performed in line with management expectations in the quarter." It subsequently announced that Volition would be transferred from Deep Silver to Gearbox Entertainment, stating that it "has all the tools, including an experienced management team in the US, to create future success at Volition".[41][42] In August 2023, Embracer shuttered Volition.[
 

EverydayBeast

ChatGPT 0.1
The difference between 1 million and 15 million is huge for example a game like dead space 2 sold 4 million but cost 60 million to make I think games are in development for years and the release isn’t the right situation.
 

Felessan

Member
When GTAV generated $1 BILLION dollars on it's first three days in the market.
Every thirsty slimy CEO wants to ape that success.
And T2 regularily in red - so not really. GTA is a case when games sold a lot of copies, but profits are temporary and tiny.
Every CEO wants CoD (or FIFA), not GTA. CoD steadily brings money every year. It's a cash cow that prints money. And GTA... well GTA is a phenomenon, but not a business one.
 

MacReady13

Member
Let's say Doom sold 200,000 copies in the first year and made money.

Which of the two will benefit the most from the sales?

The current ID software staff?

5Q5MKZO.jpeg


Or these dorks?

Q4VPvkW.jpeg
Isn't it amazing that what those 6 guys in that picture made all those years ago is today being repackaged for a modern audience. Still the same game. Still that same brilliant gameplay and level design. And it is better than anything being made and released today. BETTER GRAPHICS DON'T MEAN A GAME IS BETTER! Focus on gameplay and level design. Fuck your Hollywood style story and worry about the actual gameplay! Nintendo know this and make millions! Why can't others see it???
 

Astral Dog

Member
One reason is that game development complexity has skyrocketed,
before you could make a great retail game with only 20-50 people, now they need 300-600+ teams

The other is that the economy is crashing, intentionally , it will affect all companies , inflation and taxes make living unaffordable as videogames will become more of a luxury item

Games are selling well despite that and are making money, but its unstable
 

PeteBull

Member
No one gives a shit about the revenue if the time and money spent is only giving a fraction of that as profit.
When dev studio/publisher waste game budget on stupid and unnececary things ofc game makes very lil actual profit.
We all know wokeness doesnt sell, actually it usually makes ur game bomb, so why those stupid devs make all kinds of references and waste precious cash on stuff that doesnt increase quality of the product but pushes woke agenda at humongous cost?

Let those devs/pubs suffer, and let them suffer hard, next example of that is concord, gonna launch in a week, actually, so we all can see how it crashes and burn.

And its not tiny game, its big budget AAA project that will simply have miniscule sales/playerbase, think of anthem just not with fake trailer ;P

And quick info from wiki, on how long it took to make concord:
Concord is the first game developed by Firewalk Studios, which was founded in 2018. Firewalk initially developed Concord in collaboration with its parent company, ProbablyMonsters, until the studio was acquired by Sony Interactive Entertainment in April 2023.[4]
Firewalk Studios officially announced Concord during the PlayStation Showcase on May 22, 2023, with a CGI trailer.[5] The game is scheduled to release for PlayStation 5 and Windows on August 23, 2024. A beta for the game was released in July 2024 to underwhelming player numbers.
So 6 fricken years, studio is in bellevue,washington so very high dev salaries obviously.

Tldr: This shit costed hundreds of milions of usd only to bomb super hard week from now :)
 

efyu_lemonardo

May I have a cookie?
Came across this video and I think it's a good example for this thread because it shows how both talent and good management and planning contribute to achieving an optimal result given limited resources.

The VFX artist is contracted to create a shot for a SAW like thriller. The main character has to crash his Jeep into a building, killing a pedestrian, in order to save his daughter. The only shot missing is the actual crash, and the VFX artist is given three attempts to work on it, each with more time than the last. He's given a shot of the pedestrian and the building and has to superimpose a Jeep and any damage caused by the crash.

Skip through the video to see the result of each attempt. The rest of the process is also interesting, but it's not the main point of this post.

@5:40 - the result of 5 minutes of work.
@18:00 - 5 hours of work.
@26:30 - 5 days of work.



The original intention behind this video was to demonstrate that more time leads to a better result, but I think it ends up demonstrating that there is a middle ground between too little and too much.

The artist is unquestionably talented but I think the second attempt is much more bang for your buck than the third, and perhaps something similar is happening in the video game industry, leading to much larger teams working much longer hours with a much bigger budget, and ultimately not necessarily delivering something that justifies spending all those extra resources.

What do the rest of you think? Which attempt is your favorite?
 
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mhirano

Member
Game industry is mostly speculative stuff right now.
The people who run it (corporate greedy mofos) see games as investments with high ROI, where if you put big money, even bigger money will return to your pockets.
There is no passion involved, just safe-samey-comfort-food-Disneylike games with large budgets
 
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