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Dave_at_Home
Member
Keep in mind Sony was helping AMD with Navi from the very beginning. Those clocks have always been the focus. Mark Cerny, even said himself that they could clock higher, but would run into logic issues.but the thing is, increasing clock speeds is the easiest way to do just that.
was PS5 targetting 2.23ghz from the start? we wont know. but let see where Amd 7nm+ rdna2 ends up in their clocks.
Because of this
Now, we know PS5 can't reach XSX on GPU performance raw expect some engine prefer frenquency over CU. (depending how dev make the game).
The only interesting thing on PS5 over XSX is the AMD SmartShift (CPU can help GPU and vice versa)
This is not exactly a fair comparison to what the PS5 will be capable of considering they're looking at RDNA1. Not to mention all the customization done within their GPU among other things such as the custom geometry engine, cache scrubbers (keeping CU saturated), etc. Digital Foundry is grasping at straws here. Anyway, yeah, SmartShift can occur hundreds of times per second, so it will be interesting to know what kind of performance uplift this causes.
Dave_at_Home
Member
There's been talk that the CU's are larger in PS5 due to the nature of variable frequency and the utilization of SmartShift. Could be wrong, though.
Yup. The new thing is called LCUE, btw.
They are bigger because RDNA 2 CUs are bigger than GCN CUs. This isn’t unique to PS5
dead monkey uk
Member
I am probably one of the few people who is old enough to know what hell you are prattling on about.
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jonnyp
Member
Tagline checks out.
freefornow
Gold Member
"You try and tell the young people of today that, and they wont believe you!"
PaintTinJr
Member
Yeah, but I think the PS5 CU workgroups will be bigger because of the cache scrubbers - as that surely requires some additional unit to liaise with the memory controller that brings data to and from the unified ram to the L2 cache, wouldn't you think?
Also - can't remember if it was in an AMD, DF, Cerny or UE5 demo deep dive video, interview, technical docs or tweets, I watched/read. or if I've imagined it
- but I've got it in my head that the PS5 GPU has 3 levels of cache hierarchy (L0, L1 and L2) - and that it might be custom to the PS5 because of the scrubbers. IIRC an L0 cache has been added to avoid CU WGPs thrashing the L1 cache and being forced to wait when the shared L1 cache gets updated. IIRC the 3 tier system allows the L2 cache to be updated , the L1 caches to partially change as needed, and the L0 cache to be used, uninterrupted until data needs move to/from the L1 cache. Hopefully I haven't imagined that, and some else remembers the same thing.
SF Kosmo
Banned
Yeah I think apart from the digital foundry microscopes you're not gonna see a big difference between the two for most multiplatform titles, especially once we get a year in or so and people understand hot to optimize for the hardware.
PaintTinJr
Member
Even though the point will be sort of moot, because hardware accelerated RT - instead of UE5 demo ACE software based RT will be used for 70-90% scene (eg background) - will almost certainly be reserved for just the main foreground scene assets in most games, the theoretical difference is still 10TF versus 12TF.
Although, in reality between the cache scrubbers, faster cache, and the faster "command buffer" which Cerny explicitly mentioned in the Road to PS5, the higher the ray density per frame - that exceeds the XsX command buffer rate and/or exceeds the L2 cache data - the PS5 will have an advantage of being able to partially update the cache without stalling the workload, and will be able to launch more workloads. So in all likelihood it is better at both hardware and software RT in real-world situations.
Full RT games by third parties are unlikely to happen anyway, because it would effectively be a generation exclusive + PC top tier niche game - which limits their opportunities on the license free PC market.
MaulerX
Member
I'm just going to leave this here and people can make what they want of it... A respected era insider, who also happens to be a mod there, left this nugget last night:
Realistically, how is Microsoft expected to compete with Sony next generation? Can they?
Sony literally entered the industry by buying devs, having them turn coat on their contracts and then happily footed the bills after they lost in court for their anti competitive practices.Tomb Raider a Sega exclusive that started as a Sega exclusive called Project Pyramid for 32X, Wipeout and...
www.resetera.com
"I'm not going to say too much, but from some murmurings I've been hearing, I'll just say I suspect this topic is going to age "interestingly" when a few more details on both platforms are revealed.
I mean this in a few more ways, but to give the broadest idea, I'll just say the Xbox X is by far more powerful than the PS5 if we're just talking raw power, multi-platform games will run better on Xbox X is something people are going to have to prepare themselves for. Add to this Microsoft are ready to lowball Sony when it comes to price. They can more easily make a sacrifice and get back profits from Game Pass than console sales than Sony can from that comparatively."
njean777
Member
I never they would, they can if they want is the truth. They are one of the richest companies in the world. If they really wanted to they could undercut Sony 150$ Per console and be just fine. Not that they will, but they could. People seem to forget that Sony is not like MS when it comes to money. If MS wanted to really sell these consoles they will make it happen no matter what and they could afford it. Simple as that
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njean777
Member
We don’t need to, they have lost the power war already. I am not claiming that the XSX is better, but by numbers it is and will always be. You can not argue facts and numerical data.
are you calling 1-800-nut-bag ?
Thirty7ven
Banned
I'm just going to leave this here and people can make what they want of it... A respected era insider, who also happens to be a mod there, left this nugget last night:
Realistically, how is Microsoft expected to compete with Sony next generation? Can they?
Sony literally entered the industry by buying devs, having them turn coat on their contracts and then happily footed the bills after they lost in court for their anti competitive practices.Tomb Raider a Sega exclusive that started as a Sega exclusive called Project Pyramid for 32X, Wipeout and...
Here we go.
Like Clockwork.
PaintTinJr
Member
How does that address your claim about RT on each? Or undermine the technical argument I made - for why I believe (IMHO) you will be wrong about RT on both systems?I'm just going to leave this here and people can make what they want of it... A respected era insider, who also happens to be a mod there, left this nugget last night:
Realistically, how is Microsoft expected to compete with Sony next generation? Can they?
Sony literally entered the industry by buying devs, having them turn coat on their contracts and then happily footed the bills after they lost in court for their anti competitive practices.Tomb Raider a Sega exclusive that started as a Sega exclusive called Project Pyramid for 32X, Wipeout and...
"I'm not going to say too much, but from some murmurings I've been hearing, I'll just say I suspect this topic is going to age "interestingly" when a few more details on both platforms are revealed.
I mean this in a few more ways, but to give the broadest idea, I'll just say the Xbox X is by far more powerful than the PS5 if we're just talking raw power, multi-platform games will run better on Xbox X is something people are going to have to prepare themselves for. Add to this Microsoft are ready to lowball Sony when it comes to price. They can more easily make a sacrifice and get back profits from Game Pass than console sales than Sony can from that comparatively."
Are you now pivoting your point to compare cross-gen (multiplats without RT) on XsX and PS5, now? It is fine if you are, I don't disagree with that assertion, because I expect most UE4 and Unity based engine games will run better on XsX than PS5 for 2years until third parties release games using next-gen engines.
Oh yea I never heard about the other stuff you mentionedYeah, but I think the PS5 CU workgroups will be bigger because of the cache scrubbers - as that surely requires some additional unit to liaise with the memory controller that brings data to and from the unified ram to the L2 cache, wouldn't you think?
Also - can't remember if it was in an AMD, DF, Cerny or UE5 demo deep dive video, interview, technical docs or tweets, I watched/read. or if I've imagined it
.
Ascend
Member
I suspect that it has to do with AMD's mediocre scaling with large amount of CUs with the GCN architecture. They assumed AMD would still have that problem down the line, so they opted for as high clocks as possible while being relatively narrow, to avoid the exponential increase in inefficiencies with larger CUs.
RDNA doesn't seem to have the same scaling issues, but we won't be sure until we see the 64/72/80CU GPUs.
RDNA doesn't seem to have the same scaling issues, but we won't be sure until we see the 64/72/80CU GPUs.
MaulerX
Member
I'm not "pivoting" anything. I made a claim and you made yours. Now we sit and wait.
We are not in a gender studies class.
Tech arguments that cannot be defended are just fud and bullshit.
Are you refusing to defend yours?
Soulja
Member
No.
Kumomeme
Member
probably:
-sony throw more budget into SSD, less on gpu side.
-as explained by cerny higher clockspeed 36cu is equal to 48cu so 36 is 'cheaper' than 48cu plus with additional rasterization performance
-ps4 backward compability perhaps?
- based on this gen, its 'common' for console manufacturer use mid range gpu and itseems the gpu sony use is midrange but on other hand, MS going all out for stronger monster gpu 52cu which is probably something sony didnt expect?
-Cerny believe 36cu is enough
-there interview before where devs claim lesser cu mean easier work for devs...i dont know if we can count on that or not.
-Sony actually considering Pro version from beginning so they do not worry for 'lesser specs' of ps5
-They know, in the end content matter not hardware
-sony throw more budget into SSD, less on gpu side.
-as explained by cerny higher clockspeed 36cu is equal to 48cu so 36 is 'cheaper' than 48cu plus with additional rasterization performance
-ps4 backward compability perhaps?
- based on this gen, its 'common' for console manufacturer use mid range gpu and itseems the gpu sony use is midrange but on other hand, MS going all out for stronger monster gpu 52cu which is probably something sony didnt expect?
-Cerny believe 36cu is enough
-there interview before where devs claim lesser cu mean easier work for devs...i dont know if we can count on that or not.
-Sony actually considering Pro version from beginning so they do not worry for 'lesser specs' of ps5
-They know, in the end content matter not hardware
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llien
Banned
We don't know how RT is packaged at all, nor whether it will become an actual thing this gen.
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anothertech
Member
399 vs 599
MrFunSocks
Banned
They've got a cost budget and a die size budget and they chose to put that money and space somewhere other than the CUs, nothing more. There's no magic in those CUs that MS don't have. AMD aren't in the business of screwing over one customer for another by hiding tech. Sony spent their money elsewhere (like the SSD), hoping that the higher clock speed can make up for a massive amount less CUs. I don't see it working, since variable clock speeds are worse in pretty much every way than constant clock speeds.
The XB1 had less CUs than the PS4 because of the eSRAM. While MS likely had the PR out going about how the eSRAM will make up for the CUs, or something else will, that's all it is - PR. Of course Cerny and Sony are going to say that their design is the best and gives them advantages and makes up for the lack of CUs, they're salesmen selling a product. It still baffles me to this day that people think Cerny has no vested interest and will only tell the honest to god truth so that means the PS5 is the more powerful console.
The XB1 had less CUs than the PS4 because of the eSRAM. While MS likely had the PR out going about how the eSRAM will make up for the CUs, or something else will, that's all it is - PR. Of course Cerny and Sony are going to say that their design is the best and gives them advantages and makes up for the lack of CUs, they're salesmen selling a product. It still baffles me to this day that people think Cerny has no vested interest and will only tell the honest to god truth so that means the PS5 is the more powerful console.
I think with 360games XOX/XSX is using CPU emulation in the first place. And rest is about graphics API, which I assume is not a problem for MS.
Maybe there is other possibility, why Sony has "only" 36 CUs. Remember fan arguing wether PS5 has RDNA1 or 2? And Mark Cerny said, that they closely cooperated with AMD to make custom chip and if some features of it will be available also on desktop, it will be success?
What if:
1)Sony develops custom RDNA1 chip with lot of new features - but with limitation of 40CUs
2)AMD uses some of these features for RDNA2, where there isnt this low CU limit
3)MS takes shelf RDNA2 for themselves
What if.... But that would make sense.
Its similar like with cell cpu. Sony developed it with IBM with one main core and seven utility cores. MS went to IBM and they sold them cell with 3 main cores. So it seems Sony always try to develop own designs and MS takes what is available.
Azurro
Banned
These FUD attempts keep getting more and more stupid. At least put effort into the conspiracy theory.
BootsLoader
Banned
No, because they have money does not mean they can undercut Sony 150$. The can’t do this even if they want it. It’s a huge loss and the XBOX division will close. You have to understand the economics behind companies. It’s more complicated than we think. Also you can’t just sell more because you are cheaper. You have to provide value. Microsoft wants to, but can’t for now.
Elog
Member
You repost a reply from era that got retracted by the author a few pages later as well as on twitter - and you repost that reply here when all of the retraction and backtracking was known without that added information. That is just sad.
PaintTinJr
Member
That's disappointing, I was hoping - like Cerny's Road to PS5 - you were going to dispel some prior thoughts I had about hardware.
FYI the first paragraph of: Expected behaviour/Terms of service strongly suggest that substantiation is expected here on Neogaf. God knows what the rules are on resetera - I've only been here, since early in the year and am not familiar with the other place ?
llien
Banned
PS4 has essentially 7870.
This card has been released back in 2012 for MSRP of $269. (212m2 die size)
PS4 was released in 2014.
PS5 has a GPU that is faster than 5700XT, which was released in summer 2019 for $399. (about 250mm2 die size on a vastly superior process)
It is faster than 95% of what steam users are using (per steam hardware survey)
Why would they go with even bigger/faster chip, based on the previous history?
Microsoft's 56CUs are crazy.
This card has been released back in 2012 for MSRP of $269. (212m2 die size)
PS4 was released in 2014.
PS5 has a GPU that is faster than 5700XT, which was released in summer 2019 for $399. (about 250mm2 die size on a vastly superior process)
It is faster than 95% of what steam users are using (per steam hardware survey)
Why would they go with even bigger/faster chip, based on the previous history?
Microsoft's 56CUs are crazy.
PaintTinJr
Member
The bolded part is completely wrong. The Cell BE is a HSA chip - the first ever - the "H" stands for "Heterogeneous" in Heterogeneous System Architecture. The Xenon chip was scaled down AS400 technology like the PowerMac 4 (IIRC) and is a "Homogeneous" chip like standard intel multi core
M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Except is correct, the main controller PPE core of PS3 got tripled in X360 cpu. It did not have SPEs.
Here is book about the whole ordeal at IBM https://www.amazon.com/dp/0806531010/?tag=neogaf0e-20
A on the wiki:
These cores are slightly modified versions of the PPE in the Cell processor used on the PlayStation 3.
Xenon (processor) - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Yeah its homogenous because it has 3 main cores. I wrote it.
And read this:
Redirect Notice
www.google.com
Theres ton of articles about it. If you want to know it.
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MrFunSocks
Banned
BC doesn't require the same hardware. Look at the 360 BC on the XB1. The XSX doesn't have 12 or 24 CUs just so it can have BC with the XB1.
B is the answer. They have a budget in size and cost, and their SSD and other things required for it blew out that budget, so they had to scale back the GPU and try to compensate for it with higher clock speeds.
Lots of the team blue diehards don't understand that the main core of the Cell is basically the same as a single core in the 360 because they think the cell was some amazing witchcraft. IBM used the same knowledge to build both. The Cell is a fantastic number cruncher, but it should never have been used for gaming. It was one of the biggest swing and a miss's of the tech world in history tbh. Sony wanted it to be used in *everything*, from your mobile phone to your fridge to your tv to your game console. It was only ever used in a single device, and it was the reason why that device lost them billions of dollars.Except is correct, the main controller PPE core of PS3 got tripled in X360 cpu. It did not have SPEs.
Here is book about the whole ordeal at IBM https://www.amazon.com/dp/0806531010/?tag=neogaf0e-20
A on the wiki:
These cores are slightly modified versions of the PPE in the Cell processor used on the PlayStation 3.
Xenon (processor) - Wikipedia
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Why? These things happen. For example that cell cpu. What about it is stupid?
We dont know what happens between AMD, Sony and MS. Its wild guess of course. But according what happened in past (CELL CPU), these type of practices happens.
Someone takes shelf parts, someone co-develop own ones.
I dont know how it was, but this make sense primarily for number of CUs and speculations about PS5 having RDNA1+ GPU.
If it's "rdna1" but with features of rdna2 and on rdna2 tech process - it is rdna2
PaintTinJr
Member
You said they "sold them a Cell", that's the part that I am asserting is false and wrong. a CPU with three 2-way PPC Cores is not a Cell BE in any shape or form. The Xenon isn't a HSA chip, which is the fundamental part of that made a Cell processor a "Cell"
Thugnificient
Banned
I love how fanboys attempt to appear educated then spew hyperbolic bullshit like that lol.
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I wrote they sold them cell with 3 main cores. What is contrdictive in this. Maybe I could write "cell with ONLY 3 main cores" to be perfectly acurate. If that is what was misleading, Im sorry for that.