excelsiorlef
Member
Cops need to build one towards black folk and which includes black queer folk first...
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Pride Toronto votes to remove police floats and marches
- Thread starter Kraftwerk
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Cops need to build one towards black folk and which includes black queer folk first...
Audioboxer
Member
Yes, but the institution has had a lot of issues with the LGBT community. I'm sure you're aware of this, so why is it bad for the institution to try and make amends?
How do you improve confidence with the institution in this instance if your answer to them being there and successfully and collectively taking part one year is to then exclude them the next?
Gotdatmoney
Member
Am I missing something or have the police already said they are retaliate because of this?
Being in the pride event is a step forward imo
excelsiorlef
Member
Because they aren't making amends to us all... black queer folk are still targeted.
They should march without having to join hands with a system that discriminates against them.
Queer folk must stand for queer folk of all colours and genders or we fail our brothers and sisters.
LudicrousSpeed
Member
Showing up and not beating people's faces in is not making amends.
Amends are made on a daily basis in the precincts and meeting rooms by changing the policies and culture of the department, not by showing up to a parade.
excelsiorlef
Member
Pride is not for oppressors to seek absolution.
The pride website literally mentions inclusion so....
Audioboxer
Member
I'm pretty certain black queer folk attend PRIDE? Is the police float some exclusive white person only float? Do the police not talk to black LGBT members at PRIDE? Is there no black police there? Is it impossible for there to be a black LGBT cop?
Don't worry, mostly rhetorical questions as I dunno why you want to other black LGBT members when the whole point in PRIDE is everyone is there to celebrate LGBT regardless of any other social or biological factors.
Because there doesn't exist a gradient in between where small things, such as attendance, still count?
No, of course not, that'd be horrible to say, think or do. What they mean is that the plice have for the past 3 decades made huge efforts and leaps to better understand the LGBT community and put in place a lot of community outreach and better education for officers and been more inclusive, to the point where they were welcomed guests in the parade, including having chiefs show up in recent years. All that was possible due to the bridges they as an organization and lgbt members of their organization help build with the lgbt community
LudicrousSpeed
Member
You don't seriously think that the intended meaning of talking about inclusion is to include oppressors in the community, do you?
Gotdatmoney
Member
And those bridges are burned now because? Like unless we all think shit is gonna go backwards why are we talking about burned bridges?
There isnt lgbt police officers?
Silly me, I thought the tax funded public institution that is the police department was obligated to serve every member of their communities equally rather than appease whichever is networking with them best.
But I get it, it's easier to burn the fringes of our community instead and bleach the image of the LGBT of any imperfections.
International Iron Man
Banned
Psychoward
Banned
Genuine question from an ignorant American. Is the relationship between the police and black people nearly as bad in Canada as it is here?
I'd assume it has to be a little better but...
I'd assume it has to be a little better but...
Silly me, I thought the tax funded public institution that is the police department was obligated to serve every member of their communities equally rather than appease whichever is networking with them best.
But I get it, it's easier to burn the fringes of our community instead and bleach the image of the LGBT of any imperfections.
What are you even going on about? Yes police should be serving people more equally I agree.
But how is banning them from the event going to do anything?
Gotdatmoney
Member
Naw it is not nearly that bad brah. It isn't perfect by any means but not like that.
International Iron Man
Banned
Having them in the event aint doing anything to improve relations either if black people are still being targeted, and if a tax payer funded government org is going to abdicate its duty to protect and treat fairly all of its citizens because it couldn't have a float in the parade every one of them deserves to be in prison for theft of taxpayer money.
Plus people shouldn't have to walk side by side with an organization that oppresses them. Might as well invite the Westboro Church to come march in it too.
LudicrousSpeed
Member
It doesn't "count" because it's not actually improvement, unless you seriously think that the problems with the police are so bad that police have to demonstrate "we can tolerate standing outside with you for a few hours without going apeshit" as progress.
LGBT folks who are employed as police officers are more than welcome to come. Just not in their uniform.
Gotdatmoney
Member
Don't die on a hill that isn't going to make any difference what so ever. From the moment BLM touched this it was going to be a losing battle in terms of public perception. Dont let yourself get banned over something that was going to be virtually impossible to win from a support point of view
No but continuing to maintain bridges with the police is a great way to lower crime, make the community less fearful of the police, feel that their issues will actually be listened to if they have a problem and go to the police to have it solved.
Silly me, I thought the tax funded public institution that is the police department was obligated to serve every member of their communities equally rather than appease whichever is networking with them best.
But I get it, it's easier to burn the fringes of our community instead and bleach the image of the LGBT of any imperfections.
Oh i didn't know the police departments weren't funded taxes before the 90's, silly me. You know it's always had that mandate but there was a time where the police would not take allegations from gay men seriously. If a gay man called the cops against domestic abuse they'd chalk it up to "some homos fighting" or if some dick holes decided to go out on a Friday night for some good ol' fashion gay bashing the police didn't care, despite it being their mandate to protect everyone.
Relations with the police have gotten better over the years because of active participation within the police from LGBT officers and outside of the police through better understanding with the community. when there is community involvement, individuals are more likely to report crimes they have suffered instead of keeping quiet because they don't fear the police isn't going to ignore them.
People aren't getting shot here daily, but you'd think they were if you asked some people
Audioboxer
Member
Sounds like they are trying to make the effort to make it "count"
As I said a gradient. Small steps can lead to small improvements. All improvements are needed if we are to go forward successfully. Hence why I'm baffled at such negativity towards this. Negativity towards the police in general, sure, but this? It's like attacking them for one of the few good things they are doing. So strange. Not to mention Canadian forces are their own identity, and while Canadian GAFers have said they have their problems it doesn't sound anywhere near as bad as America.
Havibg them there helps to show lgbt people that the police are on their side. While the TO police have work to do in terms of equally treating people its not the 80s. Queer and trans is normal and mainstream now
You're from the UK, right? As in you live there now and don't live in Canada?
Oh, really? Funny then that 2 Conservative Party leadership candidates are running openly anti-lgbt campaigns. If you think being trans is mainstream now you're living in a dream world.
Audioboxer
Member
Yeah, I made that clear earlier. I don't think there is many Canadians discussing this just now. Only one I know of in the last few pages. Pretty certain that is Apathy.
Gotdatmoney
Member
So basically nothing should happen due to this if the police act like they basically should always act? Ok.
As a side note, if a portion of the LGBT community that are also people of color have serious beef with the police at pride, shouldn't the police extend an arm directly to them in a show of good faith? I mean I onow we are talking about the police and black people so . . . But in all seriousness, if they are actually concerned about the community shouldn't they. If the police have been so active in the community why has it come to this?
I'm canadian. Just for reference.
excelsiorlef
Member
And me
I understand if you don't want to answer this, and feel free to ignore me if so, but are you yourself a member of the LGBT community?
Audioboxer
Member
No I'm not. Emotional interests stem from being raised in a devout religious household and being around a lot of homosexual bigotry. Still am whenever I debate my parents on homosexuality. It's probably why you'll see me debate religion a lot on GAF. I understand this topic has nothing to do with that, but in this case I just seen this as a backwards move to try and bridge relationships for a minority.
Now that you've asked this, and where I'm from, and given your post earlier about deleting your own posts, I'm going to guess you don't like my input. Fair enough but please challenge it if that's the case and don't get too personal. I did post in here just with my feelings at the top of page 5 and then others starting engaging with me so the debate happened.
Poor GRIMES
Banned
Not Canadian, not LGBTQ, not black.
Not surprised.
Not surprised.
Gotdatmoney
Member
Phew. Almost missed this gem too.
You keep avoiding his question asking how this is a good step to help improve police relations...
excelsiorlef
Member
I like that apparently the unacceptable discrimination line is apparently did they shoot you?
Poor GRIMES
Banned
Machoke, the onus is on the police to stop targeting black LGBTQ people. Didn't think I'd have to spell that out...
police relations in Toronto can be better but problems here are not on the same level as they are in our American neighbors
Change isnt going to occur overnight. Especially not if they are banned from attending pride imo.
ginger ninja
Banned
Its the saddest thing seeing people say it's easy for policeman to just separate out their sexuality from their other overriding personal identity as a public servant who takes pride in their work.
It's kind of like telling a gay person to be have homosexual relations but stop 'acting' gay because somehow it is possible to seperate their sexuality from their identity.
It's kind of like telling a gay person to be have homosexual relations but stop 'acting' gay because somehow it is possible to seperate their sexuality from their identity.
Gotdatmoney
Member
I'm not gonna put words in his/her mouth. I'm just gonna say the statement reeked of "whiney overexagerating black people fronting on your problems".
Which in itself doesn't even bother me because you aint gon win that battle. I get more passionate about America than here. I already know shit here will be downplayed so it's w/e.
excelsiorlef
Member
Not it's not...that's a horrendous analogy.
LudicrousSpeed
Member
I'm pretty sure that LGBT officers don't spend all of their free time in uniform. In fact, I'd wager a guess that when they're off the clock and not working a security detail (do Canadian cops even do that?), they're probably in regular ass clothes and not their uniform.
This is a really bad analogy.
Poor GRIMES
Banned
If being banned from a fluffy parade prevents the people in power from doing their jobs fairly then...well, idk what to tell you tbh!
Don't bother engaging, especially when it comes to anything involving that last one.
Why is it the citizen's responsibility to fix the relationship with law enforcement?
Law enforcement is at fault here, no one else. Citizens don't have to do a damn thing for law enforcement.
People are born cops?
Look I just believe banning police is going to do nothing and most likely not help relations with police and lgbt people.
Id love to be proven wrong though I guess we agree to disagree?
I am also not excusing disgusting police practices like profiling
How exactly? Are police going to start harassing people in the LBGT community because they can no longer have a float in their parade?
Lol no guy im just saying burning a bridge is generally not a good idea
International Iron Man
Banned
The best way to show people that the police is on their side is by actually doing the work day in day out that proves it.
Not a fuckin float.
LudicrousSpeed
Member
Exactly.
And when the police have demonstrated that they actually are on their side, then maybe it's time to reconsider letting them have a float.
What bridge is it burning? Cops have to do their job regardless of whether or not they are allowed to have a float in a parade.
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