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[Aaravos]

This is great news all round, I'm sure even the next Xbox will probably benefit from this however Sony being on the ground floor with AMD will have advantages

 

[vkbest]

"Not many", I listed 3 games. I'm not even sure GTA6 will come out this year.

You are not interested in playing in “your” PS5, but you are living in PS5 Pro threads. Maybe you should check with a Psychologist your obsession with this console

 

[Mibu no ookami]

I remember Jensen tried to define a metric when they originally introduced RTX, called RTX-OPS, which combined raster, AI and ray tracing to give a single number. It was mostly marketing spin to downplay the non-RT performance uplift, so it never caught on and nobody cared for it. They seemed to have dropped the idea entirely after that generation. I do wish there was one number that could give us a clear representation of the hardware's capability.

Regardless of the hardware's capability though, you're always going to get developers who utilize it differently. At the end of the day, it comes down to what the developers do. Some devs like to push raytracing and others don't use it at all. Some devs make big open world games while others push for linear games.

Why don't we have a number to measure how open world a game is? Because it doesn't matter.

It's a bit ironic that we are actually becoming more qualitative and less quantitative with advancements in graphics. Like... we can talk about TFs and AI TOPs and RT intersections per second, but there is no sense of what that translates to. When 3Dmark used to be a great way to compare cards, the manufacturers found ways to tune and cheat the benchmarks, so that couldn't be used either. Now we need to benchmark a dozen games to gauge relative performance, but even then it's not clear as the final output muddies the water with different upscalers and image quality :/

The need for benchmarking is in itself diminished. Games take forever to develop because every blade of grass has to look perfect and every tree, mountain, cloud, building, e.t.c. has to look just as photo realistic.

I think the industry is about to readjust drastically and we're already seeing that with the shrinking of staffs and closures of studios for AAA games.

 

[viveks86]

Regardless of the hardware's capability though, you're always going to get developers who utilize it differently. At the end of the day, it comes down to what the developers do. Some devs like to push raytracing and others don't use it at all. Some devs make big open world games while others push for linear games.

True. That's been the case since the beginning of computer graphics. But without metrics, it's very difficult to ground any hardware conversation or speculation. My eyes have been melting since Mortal Kombat 1, when I thought graphics can never look better. It's not a useful metric to keep track of tech advancements or its rate of growth

 

[Mibu no ookami]

True. That's been the case since the beginning of computer graphics. But without metrics, it's very difficult to ground any hardware conversation or speculation. My eyes have been melting since Mortal Kombat 1, when I thought graphics can never look better. It's not a useful metric to keep track of tech advancements or its rate of growth

There are other mediums we enjoy that we don't need metrics to measure.

Books, movies, music... why do we need metrics to enjoy games? Technology is advancing for movies, but generally people don't care. It's even advancing for music too.

 

[Bojji]

You have to wait 1+ year for a PC port.

How old are you?

?

I can play many (list is long) games right now with the best ML reconstruction tech: DLSS4.

You are not interested in playing in “your” PS5, but you are living in PS5 Pro threads. Maybe you should check with a Psychologist your obsession with this console

I'm interested in tech and game graphics. Failures and successes of Pro are interesting to observe - this is one big beta test for PS6. Sony is learning.

 

[viveks86]

There are other mediums we enjoy that we don't need metrics to measure.

Books, movies, music... why do we need metrics to enjoy games? Technology is advancing for movies, but generally people don't care. It's even advancing for music too.

None of the other mediums you mentioned require the level of active participation as videogames. You watch, flip a page (kids don't even do that anymore with audiobooks) and/or listen. And even amongst those, the moment you have control/choice over how the medium is consumed, enthusiasts will arise. You think there aren't forums to talk about televisions or headsets/speakers and all the metrics that go with them?

And I feel it's more appropriate to compare videogaming to other more active hobbies like photography or archery. Sure you can just do it for the endorphins and the experience, but a class of enthusiasts who care about every single aspect of the tech will always emerge and want to talk about it. We can't suggest passively consuming games like other art forms when PC gaming is alive and thriving. If you enter a PC thread and say "don't worry about the metrics, just enjoy the content", they will laugh you out! It's less of a thing with console gaming as choice is limited, but it still becomes a topic a couple of times every generation.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

None of the other mediums you mentioned require the level of active participation as videogames. You watch, flip a page (kids don't even do that anymore with audiobooks) and/or listen. And even amongst those, the moment you have control/choice over how the medium is consumed, enthusiasts will arise. You think there aren't forums to talk about televisions or headsets/speakers and all the metrics that go with them?

I'm a moviebuff. I own 3 OLED tvs, 2 active noise cancelling headphones, and a home theater system. I'm on all the forums you're referring to.

My point is that these aren't how these mediums are marketed. Which doesn't mean they don't get marketed. They're just marketed on their merits, which is fine.

And I feel it's more appropriate to compare videogaming to other more active hobbies like photography or archery. Sure you can just do it for the endorphins and the experience, but a class of enthusiasts who care about every single aspect of the tech will always emerge and want to talk about it. We can't suggest passively consuming games like other art forms when PC gaming is alive and thriving. If you enter a PC thread and say "don't worry about the metrics, just enjoy the content", they will laugh you out! It's less of a thing with console gaming as choice is limited, but it still becomes a topic a couple of times every generation.

We'll reach a point where PC gamers don't care about metrics either.

I remember in the 90s and 2000s everyone was talking about horsepower. Today, people barely care. Times change and marketing changes around it.

 

[viveks86]

My point is that these aren't how these mediums are marketed. Which doesn't mean they don't get marketed. They're just marketed on their merits, which is fine.

Not sure what you are trying to say here. The videogame medium is never marketed that way either. At least not most of the time. Did I miss the part where Neil Druckmann talked about teraflops and upscaling during his Integalactic reveal? It's only the hardware that is marketed that way (for the most part), just like a TV or an audio system.

 

[Mithos]

1000€ did I miss the price increase memo?

The ML capabilities are in line with modern GPUs.

The model has no price or class of cards. DLSS4 also works on the plucky RTX 2060. Does this make the Transformer model that of a $250 card from 2018? Of course, not.

A PS5 Pro is around €915 here (Sweden) and if you also want the blu-ray drive it's around €160, so about €1070 for both.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Not sure what you are trying to say here. The videogame medium is never marketed that way either. At least not most of the time. Did I miss the part where Neil Druckmann talked about teraflops and upscaling during his Integalactic reveal? It's only the hardware that is marketed that way (for the most part), just like a TV or an audio system.

Right and my point is that hardware is becoming less important in video gaming as we reach diminishing returns.

 

[Loxus]

This was shot down

I got that understanding from the Digital Foundry video.

 

[viveks86]

Right and my point is that hardware is becoming less important in video gaming as we reach diminishing returns.

You mean diminishing returns in terms of cost vs performance gain or diminishing returns in terms of photorealism? I agree with the former. I don’t think we are anywhere near the latter. We have been saying that for 2 generations already and are still making leaps forward. Outside of a very few exceptions like rdr 2 and tlou 2, there is a very clear jump between last gen and current gen. It’s becoming way more pronounced with games like DS 2 and GTA 6. I’ll probably agree on those diminishing returns after 2 more generations.

 

[jm89]

and silent hill 2 forever will stay on broken pssr version.... I just know it

They haven't even fixed those disgusting puddles after months. I won't hold my breath for them to update PSSR

 

[Mibu no ookami]

You mean diminishing returns in terms of cost vs performance gain or diminishing returns in terms of photorealism? I agree with the former. I don’t think we are anywhere near the latter. We have been saying that for 2 generations already and are still making leaps forward. Outside of a very few exceptions like rdr 2 and tlou 2, there is a very clear jump between last gen and current gen. It’s becoming way more pronounced with games like DS 2 and GTA 6. I’ll probably agree on those diminishing returns after 2 more generations.

There are diminishing returns in terms of photorealism as well.

It takes entirely too long to make games like this and the financial incentive to do so is diminishing. It's actually entirely too risky in most cases.

 

[viveks86]

It takes entirely too long to make games like this and the financial incentive to do so is diminishing. It's actually entirely too risky in most cases.

Currently yes. But I believe AI, automation, better outsourcing models and game engines will address that. Games are already starting to prove that great visuals can be achieved on much smaller budgets like KCD2, Clair Obscur and Silent Hill 2 Remake. After GTA 6 sets the benchmark, there is simply no going back. Lol.

 

[Loxus]

I don't have to wait for anything.

The PS5 Pro is the most powerful console on the market. It plays games better than the base units. I don't need to wait for anything nor do I need to drop a grand plus on PC and deal with headaches. I work in IT the last thing I want to do is tweak settings or configurations on a computer. I had a bad fan on my PC and I waited more than six months to replace it and used my Macbook instead. I probably have a bad ram module too. Doubt I ever replace it.

That the PS5 Pro is only going to get better is even MORE reason to own one. Not only are the experiences better now, but they're only going to get better.

And do you know how I know you know this? Because you keep trying to tell yourself that the PS6 is coming out in 2027 when everything we've seen (court documents) suggests it will come out in 2028 if not later (no incentive for Sony to release the PS6 too early).

I feel bad for you because your narrative is falling apart right before your eyes.

Sony themselves already said they're not going to delay the release of the PS6, so 2027 the earliest and 2028 the latest.

PlayStation Co-CEO: PS6 Won't be Delayed, Consoles to Remain Core of Business - News
Sony Interactive Entertainment's CEO of Studio Business Group and Hideaki Nishino in an interview with Famitsu (and translated by MP1st) said Sony won't be delaying the release of the PlayStation 6.

"We believe that PS5 will have a long lifecycle, just like PS4," said Nishino.

"However, I don’t think it is right to delay the timing of the launch of the next product that incorporates new technology because of the long time it will take. The timing for the launch of new hardware is related to the time frame in which technology evolves and the time frame in which we are able to implement that technology.

"Therefore, I think it is important to offer new products while people play the ones that are currently being used, and to expand the total number of games we offer."

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Sony themselves already said they're not going to delay the release of the PS6, so 2027 the earliest and 2028 the latest.

PlayStation Co-CEO: PS6 Won't be Delayed, Consoles to Remain Core of Business - News
Sony Interactive Entertainment's CEO of Studio Business Group and Hideaki Nishino in an interview with Famitsu (and translated by MP1st) said Sony won't be delaying the release of the PlayStation 6.

"We believe that PS5 will have a long lifecycle, just like PS4," said Nishino.

"However, I don’t think it is right to delay the timing of the launch of the next product that incorporates new technology because of the long time it will take. The timing for the launch of new hardware is related to the time frame in which technology evolves and the time frame in which we are able to implement that technology.

"Therefore, I think it is important to offer new products while people play the ones that are currently being used, and to expand the total number of games we offer."

That says nothing of when the system will launch..

Bolding the actual part you should be paying attention to

 

[KeplerL2]

2027 still on the cards for sony and ms?

Yep

60-80% better raster than pro, 2x CPU, 2x AI TOPs, 2-3x ray tracing and hopefully a ton more memory bandwidth would be my guess.

That's a reasonable assumption

 

[Loxus]

That says nothing of when the system will launch..

Bolding the actual part you should be paying attention to

There's enough info that says otherwise.


Don't think Kepler ever mentioned it'll use HBM though.

 

[TheRedRiders]

That's a reasonable assumption

I have my doubts that we'll see the rastersation increase anything more than 50%, Mark Cerny said that going forward graphics hardware will be more heavily focused on improving machine learning performance, and ray-tracing. I suspect we'll see a doubling in ML performance to support things beyond just upscaling, like neural shaders, denoising and such.

He said he expected there to be "several quantum leaps in ray-tracing performance over the next 10 years", my hunch is some of that was based on him seeing AMD's roadmap for graphics so I think at the very least the PS6 will double RT performance over PS5 Pro.

Just speculation my side but I could be dead wrong.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

There's enough info that says otherwise.


Don't think Kepler ever mentioned it'll use HBM though.

"based on their release cadence"

vs

actual court documents relating specifically to this product...

hmmm

 

[Loxus]

"based on their release cadence"

vs

actual court documents relating specifically to this product...

hmmm

So you're going to just ignore Kepler leaks?
He been pretty accurate with his info.

Not to mention Sony saying they're not going to delay next-gen.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

So you're going to just ignore Kepler leaks?
He been pretty accurate with his info.

That wasn't a leak, that was clearly speculation...

Release Schedule: Based on Sony’s usual cadence, the launch is expected in the second half of 2027.

 

[SolidQ]

I have my doubts that we'll see the rastersation increase anything more than 50%,

RX 9070XT/RTX 4080 perf is fine, in 2027 gonna be cheaper.

 

[viveks86]

That's a reasonable assumption

 

[jroc74]

I'm a moviebuff. I own 3 OLED tvs, 2 active noise cancelling headphones, and a home theater system. I'm on all the forums you're referring to.

My point is that these aren't how these mediums are marketed. Which doesn't mean they don't get marketed. They're just marketed on their merits, which is fine.



We'll reach a point where PC gamers don't care about metrics either.

I remember in the 90s and 2000s everyone was talking about horsepower. Today, people barely care. Times change and marketing changes around it.

Seeing the Ghz battles when dual core cpu's first launched was a sight to see.

Time is a flat circle.

 

[PaintTinJr]

You would think they'd stop doing this after their FUD about variable profile speeds of the PS5 and the whole 9 TF hate campaign where they were wrong. But nope.

Assuming the transcript is correct, in the text that followed Alex was still guessing about sparsity and thinks it was used to speed up DLSS as a Nvidia DLSS is better flex - what an idiot.

He still doesn't understand the maths of why you need sparsity for training but not so useful for inferencing in general, and probably not needed at all for Generative Adversarial Network inferencing where the input counts are static or almost static.

Sparsity is only really useful if you need to eliminate a double percentage figure or more of calculations, where a zero value is present in a row or column frequently when multiplying. A maths identity states that anything multiplied by zero equals zero so obviously these calculations are redundant processing that could have been filled with values that when multiplied generated non zero values, and the sparsity feature is an advance way of transposing all the rows and columns without zero calculations into the vector registers so as to bin pack the registers with work, while avoiding redundant processing.

Inferencing in upscaling is taking non-zero parameters and multiplying them by non-zero coefficients to infer values, So needless to say zero values would mean that what you are inferencing is a less precise value, so by design you wouldn't want to be dealing with non-data(zeros).

 

[paolo11]

This is good news however there are ps5 games that have not been PSSR patched yet (Final Fantasy 16 and 7 remake). I pray they fix it

 

[mckmas8808]

What did this generation teach us about teraflops and power?...

It's not the main thing that matters, but TFs and power do matter to a degree. Don't take the bait\lie that TFs and power don't matter at all. That's a literal lie that's being sold to you. If the PC or console is balanced well, TFs still do matter to a degree.

That's the nature of current GPU scaling. There's a reason Nvidia 50 series wasn't that big a jump over 40 series. And it's not just because they are greedy (probably a factor though). The same factors are going to force Sony to keep the costs down. They will look for AI and RT gains to act as bigger multipliers instead.

The ps5 pro is not giving a 64% raw uplift, despite the raw teraflops. This is likely due to other bottlenecks, such as memory bandwidth. If that bottleneck is removed with a generational shift, there is already more to gain in terms of actual performance. In another 3 years, I just can't see them doing a bigger uplift than another 60-70% without blowing out the costs. My guess is only on the raw TFs, around 27 to 30. No idea about gains in raster efficiency until we have a better idea of UDNA and if that yields anything at all. Though I can't imagine it being 40%. I think those days are long gone as well.

The bolded is what the PS6 will need to NAIL 100%! If they can't, then delay the darn thing. And relative to RDNA2 and a Zen2 processor, I'd hope the efficiency gains are more than 40% LOL! Like come on.....what are we buying if not that?

 

[viveks86]

The bolded is what the PS6 will need to NAIL 100%! If they can't, then delay the darn thing. And relative to RDNA2 and a Zen2 processor, I'd hope the efficiency gains are more than 40% LOL! Like come on.....what are we buying if not that?

There will be architectural efficiency gains. These will go towards reducing power consumption and cost per transistor. There were big jumps in those between each generation (performance per watt). They will likely shrink to 2 nm transistors as well? Without those gains, it won’t even be feasible to have any uplift on raster performance. So that will definitely happen. But I just don’t see how that will change what a TF means anymore. So 30 TF will still be 30TF. We just need to hope all of it can be used with fewer bottlenecks and AI and RT gains can compensate as force multipliers for a generational improvement in performance

 

[Lysandros]

It's not the main thing that matters, but TFs and power do matter to a degree. Don't take the bait\lie that TFs and power don't matter at all. That's a literal lie that's being sold to you. If the PC or console is balanced well, TFs still do matter to a deree.

I happen to be somewhat informed on the subject, thank you. First, 'power' do of course matter but floating point calculations per sec. is only 'a' contributing factor to it (among many others) not the whole. Second, even in the confines of this specific metric, real world throughput dictated by architecture efficiency matters much more than max theoretical ceilings. Thus, all those teraflop centric posts remain surface level and somewhat meaningless in my opinion.

 

[SolidQ]

Also Jack posted

 

[mckmas8808]

I have my doubts that we'll see the rastersation increase anything more than 50%, Mark Cerny said that going forward graphics hardware will be more heavily focused on improving machine learning performance, and ray-tracing. I suspect we'll see a doubling in ML performance to support things beyond just upscaling, like neural shaders, denoising and such.

He said he expected there to be "several quantum leaps in ray-tracing performance over the next 10 years", my hunch is some of that was based on him seeing AMD's roadmap for graphics so I think at the very least the PS6 will double RT performance over PS5 Pro.

Just speculation my side but I could be dead wrong.

Saying "several quantum leaps in ray-tracing performance over the next 10 years" and the PS6 only doubling RT performance over the PS5 doesn't compute LOL! Something is off here.

 

[mckmas8808]

I happen to be somewhat informed on the subject, thank you. First, 'power' do of course matter but floating point calculations per sec. is only 'a' contributing factor to it (among many others) not the whole. Second, even in the confines of this specific metric, real world throughput dictated by architecture efficiency matters much more than max theoretical ceilings. Thus, all those teraflop centric posts remain surface level and somewhat meaningless in my opinion.

Yes, the bolded is all I was saying. If there's proper context, the TF number still means "something". It tells part of the story. Obviously you shouldn't begin and end at the TF number for the PS6.

Also Jack posted

When will people start to understand that there's a reason all these AMD folks keep thanking and praising Sony for helping the creation of FSR4? I REALLY REALLY will be curious how Digital Foundry deals with this going forward.

 

[viveks86]

Saying "several quantum leaps in ray-tracing performance over the next 10 years" and the PS6 only doubling RT performance over the PS5 doesn't compute LOL! Something is off here.

A few things to reconcile with that statement:

1. PS6 will, at the minimum, double RT performance on the Pro. Not the base PS5. The Pro already more than doubled RT performance to the base. So we are already looking at 6-7x leap between PS6 and PS5.
2. It is likely that there are both hardware breakthroughs, where more than just ray intersections are HW accelerated, and SW breakthroughs such as AI denoising and ray reconstruction over the next 10 years that does effectively make path tracing viable on console grade hardware. I wouldn't be surprised to see a couple of path traced 30 fps games on the PS6 and may be even hit 60 fps with the PS6 Pro. I think it may even become the standard for rendering by the time PS7 comes around. I'm aware that I'm being a bit too optimistic here, but that's my take away from "several quantum leaps in next 10 years", setting aside what may just be innocent hyperbole.