Ha yeah. I thought I was the only one thinking about this.
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SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion
- Thread starter thomasmahler
- Start date
Ha yeah. I thought I was the only one thinking about this.
XANDER CAGE
Member
New universe/game.
I'm also starting to wonder if they're running out of twists. Like, I honestly didn't like Minerva's Den because it felt like too much of an AND THEN JOHN WAS THE DEMONS style twist, even if the execution and pacing were interesting. I'm glad that Infinite went full bonkers, but I feel like they're running out of twists. So far in the -Shock series we've had (spoilering for people who haven't played all of them):
-The person helping you was pretending to be someone else! (System Shock 2)
-The person helping you was pretending to be someone else! Again! (BioShock)
-The person helping you was pretending to be someone else, again, for Christ's sake! (Minerva's Den)
-You're being controlled/manipulated! (System Shock 2)
-You're being controlled/manipulated literally! (BioShock)
-You're not being controlled, but you've done this 122 times and are being observed! Also everyone knows exactly what you're going to do! (Infinite)
-You're related to the bad guy! (BioShock)
-You are the bad guy, just from a different dimension! (Infinite)
-The person helping you was pretending to be someone else! Again! (BioShock)
-The person helping you was pretending to be someone else, again, for Christ's sake! (Minerva's Den)
-You're being controlled/manipulated! (System Shock 2)
-You're being controlled/manipulated literally! (BioShock)
-You're not being controlled, but you've done this 122 times and are being observed! Also everyone knows exactly what you're going to do! (Infinite)
-You're related to the bad guy! (BioShock)
-You are the bad guy, just from a different dimension! (Infinite)
There are only so many ways you can recycle the same pull-the-rug out moments, especially in the same storyverse.
Also just for fun:
System Shock 2: the problem is basically hubris
Bioshock: the problem is basically hubris
Infinite: the problem is basically hubris
Bioshock: the problem is basically hubris
Infinite: the problem is basically hubris
Sleeping Lesson
Member
I think the general consensus is that Elizabeth has her powers because of her finger being severed, thus splitting her into multiple words. Yadda yadda, quantum entanglement, PRESTO powers.
She pulled the root. Sorry I keep copying and pasting my own post, but Elizabeth tells Booker, "I can see ALL the doors and what's behind all the doors. And behind ONE OF THEM, I see him." Booker replies, "Comstock."
She's saying she sees one spot in which to kill Comstock before he has a possibility to exist in all of existence across all time and space.
Really? I'd almost always be too far, and I need to jump onto a Vox ship to get the marker to appear.
Sleeping Lesson
Member
Yeah, you can. They may have intended to make you jump to the barge first, but if you look at the closest visible section of skyline, you get the prompt. Or you can run out the way you entered the zeppelin and be plenty close to the skyline.
bodyofanamerican
Member
There's no way for me to start a new playthrough without losing all my currently saved chapters, right?
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
So, how and why get the Lutteces to build that time machine. In which universe and how does Comstock meet them? I didn't play the game but as I have no chance to play it right now just was watching some lets play in youtube.
Afther the ending I got the feeling that the Songbird is another DeWitt. Basically because how Elisabeth talks to him "It's ok, it's all over". Feels like Comstock got one of the first DeWitts and made him that thing, and Eli knew that he was just a marionette.
Afther the ending I got the feeling that the Songbird is another DeWitt. Basically because how Elisabeth talks to him "It's ok, it's all over". Feels like Comstock got one of the first DeWitts and made him that thing, and Eli knew that he was just a marionette.
Incendiary
Banned
Yeah, I wish Fink was fleshed out more. His role in Columbia was kind of drowned out by the Vox rebellion. But it was certainly implied through some voxophones that Fink was Comstock's silent partner, if you will, and he even said some things like Comstock couldn't exist without him working the other side: I.E. Comstock was the voice and the religious leader, but Fink was the one who brought in the money and finances behind the scenes.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
Aaaaand mind = blown. Somehow it never occurred to me that that might have been the moment that allows Booker to reach Elizabeth. I guess I just assumed Old Liz plucked a random Booker from the Columbian timespace continuum verse whatever, and that happens to be player Booker.
Patrick Bateman
Member
I started my second playthrough on the first day after I completed the game for the first time. I kept my eyes open right from the start and there's so much content I missed at first. It's quite impressive.
Nappuccino
Member
I wonder how they explain this when you've already gone through multiple tears and Comstock is still in each one.
SoulUnison
Banned
Goddamn, 1999 Mode Motorized Patriots and Handymen are just straight up BS.
Even when you're hitting their weak points it feels like you're doing nothing significant, and the Vigors they aren't outright immune to do basically nothing. Crows will stun a Handyman for maybe 2-3 seconds, and Shock Jockey will stun a Patriot for about 2, but it feels futile to try to do any decent amount of damage in that deceptively short window. Fully upgraded Devil's Kiss did some OK damage to Patriots my first play through, but it was only pretty late game that I was able to afford it in the first place.
They just feel like they don't have any real weaknesses. Patriots are ridiculously quick on their feet, and Handymen are that PLUS the ability to jump around areas like a cracked out monkey.
They both have ridiculously devastating melee attacks, and the Patriot's is so quick, with almost no telegraphing or animation and with such a deceptive amount of range that a couple times I've wondered just how the hell the hell I got hit, or if maybe I just glitched out.
A Patriot once beat my head in with its gun from the direct other side of a thick pillar I was hiding behind. But they're also deadly accurate with their manual crank-powered gatling guns, so there's no real effective range to fight them from.
At least the Handyman's weak point is right on its chest, though it's not *that* great a help considering how much they pinball around arenas - the Patriot's seem designed to just never give you decent access to their weak spot, and I don't mean that in a game-y sort of "You'll have to work for it!" sort of way.
I *love* challenging games. I like having to learn patterns and strategies to approach different scenarios with. I don't like when things are just handed to me.
That said, the typical Mook enemies, as well as the Firemen and the Crow dudes have been just the right level of fun and challenge in 1999 mode.
The Patriots and Handymen, however, are like the antithesis of fun for me. They're just super fast, super aggressive, super accurate bullet sponges that it feels like there's no way past except through brute force trial-and-error.
Even when you're hitting their weak points it feels like you're doing nothing significant, and the Vigors they aren't outright immune to do basically nothing. Crows will stun a Handyman for maybe 2-3 seconds, and Shock Jockey will stun a Patriot for about 2, but it feels futile to try to do any decent amount of damage in that deceptively short window. Fully upgraded Devil's Kiss did some OK damage to Patriots my first play through, but it was only pretty late game that I was able to afford it in the first place.
They just feel like they don't have any real weaknesses. Patriots are ridiculously quick on their feet, and Handymen are that PLUS the ability to jump around areas like a cracked out monkey.
They both have ridiculously devastating melee attacks, and the Patriot's is so quick, with almost no telegraphing or animation and with such a deceptive amount of range that a couple times I've wondered just how the hell the hell I got hit, or if maybe I just glitched out.
A Patriot once beat my head in with its gun from the direct other side of a thick pillar I was hiding behind. But they're also deadly accurate with their manual crank-powered gatling guns, so there's no real effective range to fight them from.
At least the Handyman's weak point is right on its chest, though it's not *that* great a help considering how much they pinball around arenas - the Patriot's seem designed to just never give you decent access to their weak spot, and I don't mean that in a game-y sort of "You'll have to work for it!" sort of way.
I *love* challenging games. I like having to learn patterns and strategies to approach different scenarios with. I don't like when things are just handed to me.
That said, the typical Mook enemies, as well as the Firemen and the Crow dudes have been just the right level of fun and challenge in 1999 mode.
The Patriots and Handymen, however, are like the antithesis of fun for me. They're just super fast, super aggressive, super accurate bullet sponges that it feels like there's no way past except through brute force trial-and-error.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
I really like this theory, it's been a pet theory of mine as well, but I just don't see how it works, with regards to time. Liz mentions Songbird's been her warden since she was a child, so at least 10-15 years I'm guessing. Booker didn't cross over to Columbia until 1912. Also, Songbird is what stops Booker every time, according to old Elizabeth. No Songbird to stop Booker, Booker succeeds. Which means no Songbird.
XANDER CAGE
Member
Totally agreed. 1999 mode feels silly considering this isn't an RPG.
Damn just that first part of you post. I've just started on 1999 mode and so far it felt not much harder but I've just got up to the monument.
I'm not looking forward to the Handymen and Patriots
GoddyofAus
Banned
Yeah I don't buy this theory at all. There is really no reason for a Bookerized Songbird (assuming he still has his own mind and faculties) would want to impede the efforts of himself.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
I just like it because it's dramatically interesting. Also remember the Songbird technology is heavily hinted to be stolen from Big Daddy tech seen through tears. Big Daddies underwent some serious psychic brainwashing to ruin their individuality. There might be a little bit left. Just enough to, say, make Booker-Songbird insanely protective of Elizabeth, but not enough that he'd recognize his former self. He's just someone out to steal his girl. You can't tell me that isn't some compelling shit right there!
I just finished it.
The ending is fucking fantastic in every way conceivable. I mean it makes the title make sense, and explains every weird thing that happened in the game with the location jumps.
I love how they jumped to old bioshock and essentially laid everything out for you. I honestly truly did not seem what was coming until the last line and the eventual death.
It's an absolute masterpiece. There are issues the middle is a bit stretched, some of the combat is wonky (and that beyond terrible "fight off all these enemies aboard the zeppelin" battle at the end).
However, this game gets my vote for the GOTY, for simply the reason that, this pushed narratively- games forward. People complain that games can't be treated as art this game is a step closer to getting games recognized as art.
Again this is all my opinion and I know some people dislike this more than me. But nothing will top this all year. I also believe this is kens magnum Opus.
It's just fantastic
The ending is fucking fantastic in every way conceivable. I mean it makes the title make sense, and explains every weird thing that happened in the game with the location jumps.
I love how they jumped to old bioshock and essentially laid everything out for you. I honestly truly did not seem what was coming until the last line and the eventual death.
It's an absolute masterpiece. There are issues the middle is a bit stretched, some of the combat is wonky (and that beyond terrible "fight off all these enemies aboard the zeppelin" battle at the end).
However, this game gets my vote for the GOTY, for simply the reason that, this pushed narratively- games forward. People complain that games can't be treated as art this game is a step closer to getting games recognized as art.
Again this is all my opinion and I know some people dislike this more than me. But nothing will top this all year. I also believe this is kens magnum Opus.
It's just fantastic
Remachinate
Member
I think it's pretty clear that Levine, like most authors, has certain themes that he likes to continue to address and revisit over multiple works. In his case, as you illustrated, those seem to revolve around 1) freedom/agency and to the extent it can be truly possessed, and 2) the danger of unwavering devotion to an ideaology. But while I agree that after a while one begins to anticipate the reveal of his plot twists such that its impact is lessened, I think there is value in looking at the same ideas through different lenses; it allows for a more considered evaluation of the themes and their implications.
Incendiary
Banned
Here's my theory that I'm going to put out:
In one of the DLCs, you'll be playing as a character and doing something throughout Columbia, and the twist for that particular story will be you end up becoming Songbird at the end.
It's more a case of finding the root and removing it (basically, Daisy's rationale to murdering the child after killing Fink).
Essentially, this action is to close out all possible existences of Comstock.
Congratulations, now I'm going to be disappointed if this doesn't happen.
GoddyofAus
Banned
I'm hoping the DLC expands upon the Lutece backstory, specifically, how they discovered the ability to tear the fabric of space time. Can't fucking wait man.
XANDER CAGE
Member
That did sort of throw me for a loop, I must admit.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
Sleeping Lesson
Member
Damn just that first part of you post. I've just started on 1999 mode and so far it felt not much harder but I've just got up to the monument.
I'm not looking forward to the Handymen and Patriots
The Handymen are so much fun on 1999 mode. You basically have to constantly be running from them, as they can (nearly) one-hit kill you. The large combat environment near the end of the game was both the hardest and most fun section of the game for me.
GoddyofAus
Banned
You do realise Elizabeth eluded to this in the final sequence, right? lol
I don't know what to make of the baptism that the player experiences at the beginning of the game. It is the sequence seen in this video starting at about the 10:30 mark.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LavmhYXNqS4
At this point, in this universe, the player character is in the role of one of the many Booker's (123 or more of them) to make it to this point along the timeline set in place by Lutece.
Comstock already exists in this universe, as does Columbia and Elizabeth. Therefore it is a separate event, a second baptism, different from the one that acts as the decisive point or the constant that leads to the split between Booker and Comstock.
Yet you as the player character have no choice but to through a baptism in order to enter Columbia, knowing that you are a Booker who had previously made the choice to walk away and deny the atonement?
It is then implied that you drowned, as you go to the Booker PI office for the first time in the game (which is where you end up after dying when Elizabeth isn't around to bring you back herself) - and then you get the first glimpse of the 1980's attack on NYC. From there you wake up coughing, laying down in a body of water inside the opening area of Columbia. Am I just reading into this too much?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LavmhYXNqS4
At this point, in this universe, the player character is in the role of one of the many Booker's (123 or more of them) to make it to this point along the timeline set in place by Lutece.
Comstock already exists in this universe, as does Columbia and Elizabeth. Therefore it is a separate event, a second baptism, different from the one that acts as the decisive point or the constant that leads to the split between Booker and Comstock.
Yet you as the player character have no choice but to through a baptism in order to enter Columbia, knowing that you are a Booker who had previously made the choice to walk away and deny the atonement?
It is then implied that you drowned, as you go to the Booker PI office for the first time in the game (which is where you end up after dying when Elizabeth isn't around to bring you back herself) - and then you get the first glimpse of the 1980's attack on NYC. From there you wake up coughing, laying down in a body of water inside the opening area of Columbia. Am I just reading into this too much?
I personally feel like it would be impossible to ever fully close the loop, and the circle was merely starting again with the last scene. More depressing, but makes more sense to me than there really being one timeline where all Comstocks can be killed. And there's is nothing to tell us that Liz can really see all possibilities other than her telling us she can. She could just as well be mistaken.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
No, I think there is most definitely something to that, I've just been unable to figure it out. Also it's the same priest as from the baptism where Comstock was 'born'.
GoddyofAus
Banned
Two different contexts. The baptism at the beginning of the game is the infinite baptism that Booker HAS to go through, but that particular one in that particular universe he only partook in out of necessity, not desire.
Patrick Bateman
Member
Am I just seeing things or is Lady Comstock modelled right after the daughter of Theodor Roosevelt, Alice?
Am I just seeing things or is Lady Comstock modelled right after the daughter of Theodor Roosevelt, Alice?
Pretty much
reddwarf42
Member
I hate stories like Bioshock Infinite and Timecrimes (a movie). They always suffer from "first one" paradox. If Booker = Comstock how did the "first" Booker give Comstock his child? Why did the "first" Comstock come to a Bookers world in the first place? Did the Comstocks have children too?
I genuinely hate time travel stories because they always suffer from paradoxes.
I genuinely hate time travel stories because they always suffer from paradoxes.
It's not a time travel story. It's a multiverse story. Think sideways movement rather than linear.
GoddyofAus
Banned
Which, when you factor in that it is a real scientific theory, is fucking mindblowing.
Said by a Red Dwarf fan?
reddwarf42
Member
Am I just seeing things or is Lady Comstock modelled right after the daughter of Theodor Roosevelt, Alice?
Why would you know this? Are you a historian or something? Are you secretly Dennis Miller who knows every piece of historical minutia known to man?
Patrick Bateman
Member
reddwarf42
Member
Yes.
ThaiGrocer
Member
It's just Reddit on the first course of reflecting back at the internet.Why would you know this? Are you a historian or something? Are you secretly Dennis Miller who knows every piece of historical minutia known to man?
reddwarf42
Member
It's a time traveling mutiverse story which is worse. Why would the first Comstock open a dimensional gate in the first place? Who found the scientists Lutece? Why did they open the dimensional portal the "first" time? To cross over the multiple dimensions someone had to do it "first".
Listening to Weekend Confirmed, I disagree with Cannata that the gameplay was the best part (because I found it rather tiresome especially outside of the few major set pieces) BUT I do agree that the game shifts from the political/religious themes of the beginning third to a trippy sci-fi dimension story in final 60% and I think the game is weaker because of that. The ending was really outstanding and the universe shifting realizations are great but the whole set up is basically tossed aside which bums me out.
Patrick Bateman
Member
Funnily I read the wiki-article about Teddy Roosevelt today and saw the picture there.
GoddyofAus
Banned
Why does their have to be a "first" time? That's like trying to debate the origins of the Universe. The player is transported into the mind of Booker who is beginning his 123rd runthrough of Columbia. There was only a first time out of those 123 because he was given the opportunity by the Luteces who were screwed by Comstock to change what he began. All the other times beforehand, he probably commited suicide from guilt or just lived out his life or some other incident, the possibilites of which are, wait for it, infinite.