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[Cyan]

Judging by this thread, "dismemberment abortion" is an impressively effective use of reframing terminology.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Judging by this thread, "dismemberment abortion" is an impressively effective use of reframing terminology.

Is "reframing terminology" an euphemism reframing terminology for "propaganda"?

 

[Dash_Riprock]

Judging by this thread, "dismemberment abortion" is an impressively effective use of reframing terminology.

Hey, its the same group of people that gave us Intelligent Design. Brilliantly worded and "scientific sounding," but still boils down to "God did it."

 

[ThisGuy]

I personally always had hang ups when it came to the second trimester. If the progress of the baby is where I think it to be it's just hard for me to be okay with it. Women's body of course. Seems like such a hard thing to deal with.

 

[Blader]

Why do people care so much about what other people are doing? Everyone has to validate their own decisions by forcing them on to others.

It's for scoring points to get you into heaven.

 

[GurgleBot20]

Call it an "area" instead of a line then. There are already tons of examples in life where people do not have control of their own bodies. Suicide is illegal, drugs are illegal, there are lots of things you cannot do to your own body, particularly when they affect or infringe upon the lives of other people.

So I don't think it's hypocritical at all. The only problem is determining when life begins. If somehow all the pro-choice people spontaneously agreed that life began at conception, then there would be no more debate because you simply don't have the right to choose to murder someone.

So the "line" now is currently drawn somewhere else. Is it hypocritical to call yourself pro choice while saying that abortions should not be allowed while a woman is in labor? What's your position on that? You have your own personal line about when abortions should be performed, and presumably for you it's black and white. For me it's not, I don't think the fetus instantly becomes human one moment, I think it becomes human over a period of time, and I don't see why its rights shouldn't reflect that.

But that kind of pertains to "when" an abortion is performed. I'm curious as to your original comment, and wondering why it matters as to "how" it occurs.

 

[Volimar]

She has no memory of that night, Stephanie Chatfield said. She knew only by her appearance and physical condition the next morning that she “had been taken advantage of.” Three weeks later, she learned that she was pregnant.

If you have no memory of the night, how can you be sure it wasn't consensual?

 

[Brakke]

If you have no memory of the night, how can you be sure it wasn't consensual?

Because she was drunk; she couldn't have consented.

 

[CornBurrito]

The only moral abortion is my abortion

Edit: didn't see Ziffles' post.

Hmm...

Except she regretted her decision, and felt super guilty.

Can you please point to where she said or suggested her abortion was ok to her?

Or is this basically "mistakes are forever", and people are never allowed to learn from their mistakes and try to prevent others from making them?

 

[cpp_is_king]

But that kind of pertains to "when" an abortion is performed. I'm curious as to your original comment, and wondering why it matters as to "how" it occurs.

Well, the term "humane", by definition, requires humanity. So if we can agree that the humanity forms gradually as opposed to instantaneously, then we should be able to agree that the level of humaneness with which they are treated during the abortion process should also increase accordingly, one step of which would be "abortions are no longer allowed", but perhaps with other increasing degrees of humaneness before that.

 

[Volimar]

Because she was drunk; she couldn't have consented.

And if the guy who had sex with her was also drunk, did she rape him as well?


I'm not an apologist or anything, I just think it's odd to jump to that conclusion. You wake up, discover you obviously had intercourse but have no memory of it. "Must have been raped" seems a bit of a jump considering people get black out drunk and have sex all the time.

Then again, maybe she was bruised or had defensive wounds or something that made her think that way. It just jumped out at me.

 

[CornBurrito]

Why do people care so much about what other people are doing? Everyone has to validate their own decisions by forcing them on to others.

This post is extremely funny if you stop to consider that these people think abortion is equivalent to murder.

 

[LiquidSword]

And if the guy who had sex with her was also drunk, did she rape him as well?

Dude no matter how disgusting someone's views are, don't downplay that she was a victim of rape. Cmon really?

 

[GurgleBot20]

Well, the term "humane", by definition, requires humanity. So if we can agree that the humanity forms gradually as opposed to instantaneously, then we should be able to agree that the level of humaneness with which they are treated during the abortion process should also increase accordingly, one step of which would be "abortions are no longer allowed", but perhaps with other increasing degrees of humaneness before that.

Okay, then i do see where your coming from.

But, because I think the choices/body of the woman are more important than the rights of fetus, I still feel the safest method of the medical procedure should take place.

 

[CornBurrito]

And if the guy who had sex with her was also drunk, did she rape him as well?


I'm not an apologist or anything, I just think it's odd to jump to that conclusion.

If you are drunk enough to become black out drunk (which is how drunk she was given that she had no recollection of the night), you can't legally consent.

 

[Volimar]

Dude no matter how disgusting someone's views are, don't downplay that she was a victim of rape. Cmon really?

That's not what I'm doing though?

If you are drunk enough to become black out drunk (which is how drunk she was given that she had no recollection of the night), you can't legally consent.

I absolutely agree with this.

Forget this specific incident for a second. What do you call it when two people get blackout drunk and have sex? Mutual rape?

 

[TheRagnCajun]

I once had chocolate ice cream and thought it tasted vile, so now I'm campaigning to have it banned.

That doesn't make me a hypocrite, but I'm still an asshole.

That's a horrible analogy.

This thread is about how this woman's past has come to light. You can think she's an asshole if you want. Her abortion probably doesn't change that opinion one way or another. I just thinks it's sad this information was used as a scandal to exploit her because I really don't think its public interest. It doesn't make her a hypocrite. It seems like a gotcha moment where someone was trying to paint her that way.

 

[kame-sennin]

Okay, I see you are getting upset, and that was not my intention. So I'll just leave the thread.

Good thinking. You should also consider never spewing your bananas regressive opinions in the presence of thinking human beings.

Many anti-choice women are convinced that their need for abortion is unique -- not like those "other" women -- even though they have abortions for the same sorts of reasons.

I've heard stories like that before. I've never understood it.

I'll explain: the "other women" are black.

 

[faceless007]

If she believes that it's the wrong choice (in general, not just for her), it's entirely consistent for her to want that choice denied to people. Like a recovering heroin addict would support keeping heroin illegal.

"I did this, it was a mistake. I don't want others to make that same mistake I did. I don't think it's ever the right choice to make."

Come at it as nanny-stating if you want, maybe contrast it to her opinions on healthcare or something, but on its own it's not a hypocritical stance to take.

She's not obligated to answer since she isn't a lawmaker, but the relevant follow-up question would be whether she believed those who get an abortion should face criminal prosecution (as the label "pro-life" generally implies, although not all subscribe to that).

Aside from that, it's true that there's no real "hypocrisy" angle at play here since she's not making a policy recommendation. Though the rather self-aggrandizing subtext of "I regret it but that's OK because God forgave me" from her post naturally raises the question of whether that applies to other women as well.

 

[FriedConsole]

If you have no memory of the night, how can you be sure it wasn't consensual?

Are you Bill Cosby's lawyer?

 

[CornBurrito]

That's not what I'm doing though?



I absolutely agree with this.

Forget this specific incident for a second. What do you call it when two people get blackout drunk and have sex? Mutual rape?

I dunno. Maybe make a different thread instead of trying to hijack the thread with irrelevant "But what really IS rape?" bullcrap.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

If you are drunk enough to become black out drunk (which is how drunk she was given that she had no recollection of the night), you can't legally consent.

His argument was what if they were mutually as drunk and neither could give consent. Niche case since one party usually has to be sober enough to actually do the deed.

 

[Volimar]

Are you Bill Cosby's lawyer?

Alright, you know what. I'm just going to drop it since people seem to want to make it look like I'm saying something I'm not.

I dunno. Maybe make a different thread instead of trying to hijack the thread with irrelevant "But what really IS rape?" bullcrap.

Perfect example here. That's not even where I was going, but okay. Dropping it.

This angle is totally off-topic in a thread about the consequences of sex. In this case, she got pregnant and then got blackmailed over it. I'm pretty sure he didn't, so I don't really care about him here. She's not using the fact of the rape to excuse her decision to abort.

If you wanna muse about the morality of drunk sex, this just isn't the place for it.

Gotcha. Wasn't trying to slut shame or discuss the morality, was just interested in what it meant. But this isn't the place, you're right.

 

[Brakke]

And if the guy who had sex with her was also drunk, did she rape him as well?

This angle is totally off-topic in a thread about the consequences of sex. In this case, she got pregnant and then got blackmailed over it. I'm pretty sure he didn't, so I don't really care about him here. She's not using the fact of the rape to excuse her decision to abort.

If you wanna muse about the morality of drunk sex, this just isn't the place for it.

 

[LiquidSword]

That's not what I'm doing though?

Seems like it to me when you come in asking basic questions about consent. Your first post questions whether she was raped at all. Are your consent questions relevant to the topic at all?

 

[Punchy4486]

Do as I say, not as I do.

It's different in my case because...

Yeah, but...

I'm one of the good ones.

 

[Bearjewpiter]

I cannot find a youtube link to this scene so sorry for the wall of text but it's from E12 S3 of House. The most important part is the last line but I think the whole scene is well written.


HOUSE: You understand? You okay? I know you're not okay. Are you more or less not okay than you were five minutes ago.

EVE: About the same.

HOUSE: Termination procedure is unpleasant.

EVE: I don't wanna terminate.

HOUSE: You wanna keep the baby?

EVE: Abortion is murder.

HOUSE: True. [nods] It's a life. And you should end it.

EVE: Every life is sacred.

HOUSE: Talk to me, don't quote me bumper stickers.

EVE: It's true.

HOUSE: It's meaningless.

EVE: It means every life matters to God.

HOUSE: Not to me, not to you. [getting up to pace around] Judging by the number of natural disasters, not to God either.

EVE: You're just being argumentative.

HOUSE: Yeah! I do do that. What about Hitler? Is his life sacred to God? Father of your child? Is his life sacred to you?

EVE: My child isn't Hitler.

HOUSE: Either every life is sacred or...

EVE: [shouts] Stop it! I don't wanna chat about philosophy!

HOUSE: You're not killing your rape baby because of a philosophy.

EVE: It's murder! I'm against it. You for it?

HOUSE: Not as a general rule.

EVE: Just for unborn children?

HOUSE: Yes! The problem with exceptions to rules is the line drawn. Might makes sense for us to kill the ass that did this to you. But where do we draw the line? Which asses do we get to kill? Which asses get to keep on being asses? Nice thing about the abortion debate is we can quibble over trimesters, but ultimately there's an ice-cold line - birth. Morally, there isn't a lot of difference. Practically, huge.

 

[faceless007]

And if the guy who had sex with her was also drunk, did she rape him as well?

Let's not derail the thread with hypotheticals that aren't germane, because going down that road rarely ends well. She never (as far as we know) made an accusation of rape against anybody from that night so your worry isn't really relevant to why this story is being reported.

Let's please get back on topic.

 

[Volimar]

Damn. House going in on that. Does she end up getting the abortion?

Let's not derail the thread with hypotheticals that aren't germane, because going down that road rarely ends well. She never (as far as we know) made an accusation of rape against anybody from that night so your worry isn't really relevant to why this story is being reported.

Let's please get back on topic.

Absolutely. If you'd look up a few posts you'd see I already agreed to drop it.

Spoiler

she dies later in the episode I beleieve

...

 

[Bearjewpiter]

Damn. House going in on that. Does she end up getting the abortion?

Spoiler

she dies later in the episode I beleieve

 

[CornBurrito]

Do as I say, not as I do.

I'm one of the good ones.

Is "do as I say not as I do" also something you say when you see those anti-smoking advertisements from former smokers who lost a lung from cancer? As a general rule, do you think it is inappropriate for someone to learn from a mistake, and then work to prevent other people from making that mistake?

Also I dunno where you're from, but "guilt and immense regret" and "worst decision of my life" hardly sounds like she thought her decision was good.

 

[AzureRonin]

I cannot find a youtube link to this scene so sorry for the wall of text but it's from E12 S3 of House. The most important part is the last line but I think the whole scene is well written.


snip

What a great example of patriarchy haha. A man telling a woman what she should be doing.

 

[CornBurrito]

What a great example of patriarchy haha. A man telling a woman what she should be doing.

I agree. Male doctors should not be allowed to advice female patients.

 

[perfectchaos007]

I agree. Male doctors should not be allowed to advice female patients.

Would a male OBGYN be mansplaining?

 

[conman]

Judging by this thread, "dismemberment abortion" is an impressively effective use of reframing terminology.

The GOP has turned these faux-terms into the hallmark of their political theatrics. I mean, which sounds worse an inheritance tax or a "death tax"? A medical panel or a "death panel"? A terminated pregnancy or a "partial-birth abortion"? The list goes on.

 

[CornBurrito]

Would a male OBGYN be mansplaining?

Yes. Doctors should not be allowed to tell patients what the best course of action, medically speaking, is. Especially not in life or death matters.

To do so would be patriarchy.

 

[Volimar]

What a great example of patriarchy haha. A man telling a woman what she should be doing.

Is it the patriarchy if you know he acts like that with all his patients?

 

[exmachina64]

Yes. Doctors should not be allowed to tell patients what the best course of action, medically speaking, is. Especially not in life or death matters.

To do so would be patriarchy.

So we should ban all men from being medical professionals?

 

[CornBurrito]

Is it the patriarchy if you know he acts like that with all his patients?

Or that giving medical advise it literally part of a doctor's job.

So we should ban all men from being medical professionals?

Unlike AzureRonin, I'm not serious.

 

[ExVicis]

What a great example of patriarchy haha. A man telling a woman what she should be doing.

I guess for all female patients they should bring in a female doctor to come in and give medical advice then so they don't accidentally oppress them.

 

[Bearjewpiter]

What a great example of patriarchy haha. A man telling a woman what she should be doing.

 

[AzureRonin]

guys... there is no medical advice being dispensed in that quote. He's basically shaming her.

 

[ccbfan]

This has got to be one of the most disgusting topics I've ever read on GAF.

People here are jumping on a poor woman who was practically rapped for having an abortion that she regretted and was blackmailed into admitting it just because her husband is a Republican.

 

[Bearjewpiter]

guys... there is no medical advice being dispensed in that quote. He's basically shaming her.

(THE FEMALE INTERPRETATION OF) HOUSE: Either every life is sacred or...

EVE: [shouts] Stop it! I don't wanna chat about philosophy!

(THE FEMALE INTERPRETATION OF) HOUSE: You're not killing your rape baby because of a philosophy.

EVE: It's murder! I'm against it. You for it?

(THE FEMALE INTERPRETATION OF) HOUSE: Not as a general rule.

EVE: Just for unborn children?

(THE FEMALE INTERPRETATION OF) HOUSE: Yes! The problem with exceptions to rules is the line drawn. Might makes sense for us to kill the ass that did this to you. But where do we draw the line? Which asses do we get to kill? Which asses get to keep on being asses? Nice thing about the abortion debate is we can quibble over trimesters, but ultimately there's an ice-cold line - birth. Morally, there isn't a lot of difference. Practically, huge.

That do anything for you?

 

[CornBurrito]

guys... there is no medical advice being dispensed in that quote. He's basically shaming her.

Have you watched an episode of House once in your entire life?

For context, House is an ass towards all of his patients. His method of getting them to accept medical advise is to go "you're fucking dumb, I'm the doctor, listen to me moron."

edit: Actually I need to confirm that. I think I may be getting wires crossed and misremembering.

edit2: Yep, wires crossed. This woman was not dying.

 

[Extra Sauce]

I know. It will be hard as fuck. It may take centuries. But my utopian side would love to see something like that some day. I definitely cheer for the idea of contraception, more education, a more civilized society. I hope the day comes when men and women can enjoy their sexuality freely and safely without having to go "whoops! Pregnant! Let's just get rid of it" like if it was nothing.

You think women who go through the ordeal of abortion do so like it was nothing?

I realize you have good intentions but you've put your foot in your mouth enough times in this thread. It's time to stop posting.

 

[Ordlan]

People here are jumping on a poor woman who was practically rapped for having an abortion that she regretted and was blackmailed into admitting it just because her husband is a Republican.

Not because her husband is a republican, but because she and her husband want to ban abortion. I can see why you made that leap, though.

 

[AzureRonin]

(THE FEMALE INTERPRETATION OF) HOUSE: Either every life is sacred or...

EVE: [shouts] Stop it! I don't wanna chat about philosophy!

(THE FEMALE INTERPRETATION OF) HOUSE: You're not killing your rape baby because of a philosophy.

EVE: It's murder! I'm against it. You for it?

(THE FEMALE INTERPRETATION OF) HOUSE: Not as a general rule.

EVE: Just for unborn children?

(THE FEMALE INTERPRETATION OF) HOUSE: Yes! The problem with exceptions to rules is the line drawn. Might makes sense for us to kill the ass that did this to you. But where do we draw the line? Which asses do we get to kill? Which asses get to keep on being asses? Nice thing about the abortion debate is we can quibble over trimesters, but ultimately there's an ice-cold line - birth. Morally, there isn't a lot of difference. Practically, huge.

That do anything for you?

Women can embody the patriarchy as well. It's just a bad example to use in this situation.

 

[Kettch]

I'm impressed at some of the responses here. She was raped, no sympathy there? Rapist is free obviously, no investigation, no nothing; abortion got you covered.

What's the hypocrisy? She had an abortion and regrets it to this day, can't someone change her views or opinions over time? That's totally her right.

And dismemberment abortion is awful and completely inhumane IMO, just don't do a google image search...

She's free to change her view on what she would want to do, but she got to make her choice. Now she wants to take that choice away from other women. That's not her right.

 

[Brakke]

You think women who go through the ordeal of abortion do so like it was nothing?

I realize you have good intentions but you've put your foot in your mouth enough times in this thread. It's time to stop posting.

Is this what we mean by "dog pile"? You're jumping on a pile, responding to the activity around a person more than you are to the person himself? Ishida saw it was time to stop posting, and did:

Okay, I see you are getting upset, and that was not my intention. So I'll just leave the thread.