1- Most scientists define that the human life starts with the brain.
2- Which is why in my first example I used MY DEATH as an example
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After threats, wife of anti-abortion GOP lawmaker goes public about own abortion
- Thread starter Dram
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1- Most scientists define that the human life starts with the brain.
2- Which is why in my first example I used MY DEATH as an example
You're a pan sympatizer, don't you?
FriedConsole
Banned
Wow GAF out-progressive each other in full force. If I say it is OK to kill a kid up to age 12 will I win the GAF progressive olympics?
Dreams-Visions
Member
"Do as I say, not as I do."
"Here's the pregancy crisis hotline. I didn't use it myself, but I still think we should take away your right not carry this (a right that I utilized). So uh...yea. gl!"
"Here's the pregancy crisis hotline. I didn't use it myself, but I still think we should take away your right not carry this (a right that I utilized). So uh...yea. gl!"
Link
The Autumn Wind
More like "Do as I say, because I'm fighting to make what I did illegal."
The bolded is not being progressive ... is being realistic.
A more progressive person would probably believe that the child has any chance of having a decent life or even surviving till they reach 12 years
But the procedure of an abortion with 9 months of pregnancy and a c-section have the diference is that the c-section is easier to do
CadetMahoney
Member
Most abortions are early term, way before "squatters rights" and viability become factors to consider.
No one born who is "human and alive" has rights pro-lifers want the unborn to have.
The reason why abortion is legal has nothing to do with "human and alive".
Eye for an Eye
Member
Four pages of non sense and no one has a clue about what they're talking about when it comes with women, women's health, and abortion.
Lets rewind the subject a bit and discuss what is actually going on here.
90% of women seeking an abortion do so within the first trimester, or up to 12 weeks from LMP (last menstrual period). They do so by medical abortion induced by pills to cause the uterus to contract and expel the pregnancy. The other option is surgical, by D&C. A D&C is generally the vacuum method. The cervix is dilated enough to allow a small thin tube through and it removes the pregnancy. The pregnancy is the size of a grape or so.
These 90% of women electing for an early termination are doing so because it is an unwanted pregnancy, or could cause health issues for the mother and it's advised she terminate the pregnancy to prevent complications.
10% of women seek an abortion in the second trimester or later, from week 13 to about week 24. There are some women that get to this point and still choose to terminate a pregnancy because they don't want a child. Sometimes it's due to lack of funding to have the procedure (further along, more the cost), sometimes it's waiting for a clinic to have an appointment available, sometimes it's a burden to travel to a clinic that could be hours away in anti-abortion states. But the vast majority of procedures done at this point are for medical reasons. Health concerns for the mother, or health concerns for the fetus; most often it's health concerns for the fetus.
Between 11 and 13 weeks a women can opt for an NT scan in conjunction with NIPT tests. This can lead to early diagnosis of genetic abnormalities, such as T13 (incompatible with life), T18 (incompatible with life), T21 (can be incompatible with life, or severe complications), Turner's syndrome, and more. Depending on when the testing is done, and the option for CVS testing and getting the results, a woman may be between 13 weeks and 16 weeks before getting diagnostic results.
Even if early screening tests come back clear, there are still developmental issues that can arise later in the pregnancy. Heart conditions, bladder obstruction, kidney failure, short bone growth (there are some variations that are lethal), are most often discovered at the 20 week anatomy scan. Heart conditions are especially hard to detect prior to 18 weeks and can sometimes not show up until 22-24 weeks. There's just no other earlier method for detecting these issues in a pregnancy. Once a problem is detected by the OB, the woman is generally sent to a MFM for a more detailed scan, and then consults with specialists, maybe an MRI or further testing to try to best see the issues. It's a whirlwind of information all within a couple of weeks from the initial ultrasound. So it's easy to see how a woman winds up at 20 weeks or later and seeking out a termination.
Now, like any other woman, she has a choice. She can continue to carry out the pregnancy knowing that the baby might die before/during/after birth, or might have to go through intensive intervention to survive. Or she can choose to end the pregnancy. Some OB's will perform the procedure at their hospital, other times the woman is referred to a clinic. Not all women get the option of L&D, but a larger majority go through D&E to end the pregnancy.
A D&E procedure begins by dilating the cervix with luminaria sticks overnight. Then the following day, the woman undergoes the Evacuation part, usually under general anesthesia. Before all this starts (even the dilation sticks), they usually begin by injecting KCl or another medicine to stop the fetus' heart, so by the time they start the surgery, the baby has passed. During the surgery, the fetus may come apart in order to prevent damage to the woman's cervix and uterus. Overall, the chance of complications are a small, small fraction of the risk of delivering a full term baby.
For any woman under going this type of procedure, she is well aware of what could happen and how the procedure is performed. It's not hidden or guised as something less than what it is. Many prefer having a D&E over L&D because they do not want to see the remains or have L&D as such a tragic experience.
D&E became the primary way of performing second trimester terminations because of the ban on "partial birth abortion" which is essentially keeping the fetus intact upon removal. So make up your damn mind....
Lets rewind the subject a bit and discuss what is actually going on here.
90% of women seeking an abortion do so within the first trimester, or up to 12 weeks from LMP (last menstrual period). They do so by medical abortion induced by pills to cause the uterus to contract and expel the pregnancy. The other option is surgical, by D&C. A D&C is generally the vacuum method. The cervix is dilated enough to allow a small thin tube through and it removes the pregnancy. The pregnancy is the size of a grape or so.
These 90% of women electing for an early termination are doing so because it is an unwanted pregnancy, or could cause health issues for the mother and it's advised she terminate the pregnancy to prevent complications.
10% of women seek an abortion in the second trimester or later, from week 13 to about week 24. There are some women that get to this point and still choose to terminate a pregnancy because they don't want a child. Sometimes it's due to lack of funding to have the procedure (further along, more the cost), sometimes it's waiting for a clinic to have an appointment available, sometimes it's a burden to travel to a clinic that could be hours away in anti-abortion states. But the vast majority of procedures done at this point are for medical reasons. Health concerns for the mother, or health concerns for the fetus; most often it's health concerns for the fetus.
Between 11 and 13 weeks a women can opt for an NT scan in conjunction with NIPT tests. This can lead to early diagnosis of genetic abnormalities, such as T13 (incompatible with life), T18 (incompatible with life), T21 (can be incompatible with life, or severe complications), Turner's syndrome, and more. Depending on when the testing is done, and the option for CVS testing and getting the results, a woman may be between 13 weeks and 16 weeks before getting diagnostic results.
Even if early screening tests come back clear, there are still developmental issues that can arise later in the pregnancy. Heart conditions, bladder obstruction, kidney failure, short bone growth (there are some variations that are lethal), are most often discovered at the 20 week anatomy scan. Heart conditions are especially hard to detect prior to 18 weeks and can sometimes not show up until 22-24 weeks. There's just no other earlier method for detecting these issues in a pregnancy. Once a problem is detected by the OB, the woman is generally sent to a MFM for a more detailed scan, and then consults with specialists, maybe an MRI or further testing to try to best see the issues. It's a whirlwind of information all within a couple of weeks from the initial ultrasound. So it's easy to see how a woman winds up at 20 weeks or later and seeking out a termination.
Now, like any other woman, she has a choice. She can continue to carry out the pregnancy knowing that the baby might die before/during/after birth, or might have to go through intensive intervention to survive. Or she can choose to end the pregnancy. Some OB's will perform the procedure at their hospital, other times the woman is referred to a clinic. Not all women get the option of L&D, but a larger majority go through D&E to end the pregnancy.
A D&E procedure begins by dilating the cervix with luminaria sticks overnight. Then the following day, the woman undergoes the Evacuation part, usually under general anesthesia. Before all this starts (even the dilation sticks), they usually begin by injecting KCl or another medicine to stop the fetus' heart, so by the time they start the surgery, the baby has passed. During the surgery, the fetus may come apart in order to prevent damage to the woman's cervix and uterus. Overall, the chance of complications are a small, small fraction of the risk of delivering a full term baby.
For any woman under going this type of procedure, she is well aware of what could happen and how the procedure is performed. It's not hidden or guised as something less than what it is. Many prefer having a D&E over L&D because they do not want to see the remains or have L&D as such a tragic experience.
D&E became the primary way of performing second trimester terminations because of the ban on "partial birth abortion" which is essentially keeping the fetus intact upon removal. So make up your damn mind....
excelsiorlef
Member
Well if it's not a god thing then take solace in the fact that fetus aren't human beings anymore than a caterpillar is a butterfly
Corronchilejano
Member
You were at least free to make that decision.
CornBurrito
Member
What makes that definition less arbitrary than any other?
Humans don''t develop self-recognition until 18 months. Why not then?
I have no idea, I am not a scientist.
My ideas about abortion has nothing to do with when it is considered a life, it is 100% based on the mother not wanting to continue pregnant
Nothing about this analogy is instructive.
cpp_is_king
Member
You're preaching to the choir, I'm all in support of early term abortions. But you gotta understand, those people sincerely believe that even a 2 week old fetus is a living person just like you and me. If you're just shutting them down then you're missing the point, it's not easy to convince someone that murder is ok
CadetMahoney
Member
Human cell, ova, zygote, embryo, etc. all human. Of course a human "being" requires a brain.
Brains are the most complex organs to complete (and disconnected neurons do not amount to one). Legally, however, it's "human status" is beside the point.
These people who think fertilized eggs have the same ontic and moral value of a newborn?
I am well aware they think they're babies, but why should I respect these nonsense opinions just because they honestly believe so with religious fervor?
CornBurrito
Member
This argument is bullshit even if you think a fetus is a child.
Unless you also believe that pictures of your own baby/toddler in the bathtub are also child pornography.
She makes joke tweets. She's not serious. Simmer down.
The Artisan
Member
Interesting this news is now as I just got done last night with that episode of house of cards where Claire makes that reveal on cnn.
Because most pregnancy that are terminated are not even in the fetus stage. You are assign human characteristics to blob of cells. The terms fetus and human being have definition to them. You twisting those definitions to suit your belief and argument are disingenuous. (Fetus stage begins at 8-9 weeks).
And barring medical terms, there is the religious aspect of when one is a legal person. Some believe it is at the moment of conception. Other various times during gestation when the soul appears. Still others do not assign human rights to fetuses- damage to them is to be paid out like damage to property- no more. Others, when the baby takes it first breath (related to God breathing life into a humans). Others do not believe babies to be humans up until 30-40 days after birth, aka when the soul arrives.
CornBurrito
Member
My post is more directed at Platy, who seems to be using a joke tweet as a serious argument.
cpp_is_king
Member
Because there's no scientific alternative explanation. It's easy to not respect nonsense opinions on intelligent design, climate change, anti vaxxing, young earth, and other theories because they are scientifically discredited. The definition of when life starts, not so much. It might not even be possible to scientifically define it, because it's an inherently philosophical question.
So you would respect it for the same reason you respect any other religion, whether it be islam, christianity, buddhism, or whatever else.
We can criticize it, sure, but at the end of the day people have deep rooted beliefs that pro choicers are literally murdering people, and if you put yourself in their shoes it's not hard to see why they're so upset
excelsiorlef
Member
One thing that will one day be something else cannot be said to be that something else currently.
CadetMahoney
Member
The definition of "when life starts" is a red herring (a logical fallacy) to the abortion topic since it has nothing to do with why abortion is legal. Arguments over it won't overturn Roe.
A fertilized egg having the same ontic and moral value as a newborn isn't a scientific claim.
Sole virtue of "being upset over it" doesn't mean denying women rights is an opinion deserving of some of respect or the underlying thought process for doing so becoming logical ("a fertilized egg is a baby because God said so"). The bible doesn't even mention the word anywhere.
But a caterpillar is entirely unlike a fetus; a caterpillar thinks and experiences and lives just as much as a butterfly does. Why should anyone award a butterfly more rights than a caterpillar?
PdotMichael
Banned
This is not true.
In biology life begins with fertilization. What we consider human being is a different question and changed in our history from even a time after birth over quickening to time x after the fertilization.
Sorry ... wrong word.
Life is a complicate definition because of virus ... but BEING ALIVE is what you need a brain
Eye for an Eye
Member
I just read this... it helps explain their craziness.
http://www.salon.com/2016/05/24/the...s_are_now_worried_about_animal_human_hybrids/
CornBurrito
Member
You know, I'm having real trouble finding where the council of most scientists decided on that definition for human life.
adamsappel
Member
They don't really believe that, though. If someone told you they had gone into their child's bedroom and smothered them to death in the crib, because it was going to be expensive to raise them, or they really would have preferred a boy, or they already had enough children, you would be horrified, want nothing whatsoever to do with that person, and hope to see them imprisoned or executed for such a heinous crime. Yet nobody on the pro-life side actually advocates for women to be tried for murder, and they routinely forgive friends, family members, and even themselves for their own abortions.
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