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Audiophile GAF
- Thread starter Maiden Voyage
- Start date
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
Korranator
Member
Tested:
Radiohead - Paranoid Android (lovely DR11 rating) plus lots of good change ups from acoustic to amplified guitar.
Total War: Warhammer 2 - opening movie
The HD 6XXs just mop the floor with vs the 560s. They are better in every way. The 560s sounded almost muffled at times in comparison. It's almost like someone turned on a loudness switch and opened the sound stage a bit more.
I believe you, but I wonder why Joshua Valour and DMS say the 560S has a bigger soundstage?
Also, what format did you listen to Paranoid Android? Lossless, MQA, etc?
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Korranator
Member
No idea. Better or more accurate Equipment Than what I'm using or a longer testing session. Unfortunately, a lot of this hobby boils down to subjective opinions.
Lossless, and to be honest I personally don't Hear any difference Between FLAC and 320. FLAC is just a better file format for storage since it's a purer form.
***UPDATE EDIT***
Just realized the confusion here, I just literally found out that there is a new 560s. My comparison was the original HD560 not the brand new 560s. In my defense I did mention that I have owned them for over 10 years. Sorry guys.
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Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
So I (finally) got my HD 6XX:
I thought about describing each song I tested but I’m a noob, so I’ll speak in noobish terms: before the HD6XX, my preferred the DT 770 pro. I didn’t find it as bass heavy as others - I liked the warm signature, but I don’t like the confined sound stage. I heard the 6XX wasn’t known for bass. I hooked it up to my Schiit stack and put on “Wanna be Starting Something” from Michael Jackson. It doesn’t have as much bass as the 770 but it’s far more detailed, so it’s my most detailed headphone. With the 6XX, it just “opened up” songs. With my other headphones all the instruments and vocals just mooshed together, but with the 6XX I got better separation and soundstage. Admittedly it wasn’t a stunning revelation, but it is a significant improvement.
Now about that bass - I booted up Peace and used Autoeq. It was very hard to hear a difference when equalized. I think having the preamp set to -6.4 db doesn’t help. But even when I set the preamp back to 0 (used autoclipping), it was hard to tell a difference. I have a feeling the 6XX is maxing out my Schiit stack, which makes me want to upgrade to the Magnius/Modius...
It’s a good headphone, but you need the proper equipment to get it singing. With the magni/modi, it all ready sounds better than any of my other headphones but I can “feel” it can do better if that makes sense.
Question: would there be an improvement if I just got a Magnius and connected it to the Modi? I’d be using a single-end input and using the Modius’s balanced output, so I wonder if there would be any improvement.
I thought about describing each song I tested but I’m a noob, so I’ll speak in noobish terms: before the HD6XX, my preferred the DT 770 pro. I didn’t find it as bass heavy as others - I liked the warm signature, but I don’t like the confined sound stage. I heard the 6XX wasn’t known for bass. I hooked it up to my Schiit stack and put on “Wanna be Starting Something” from Michael Jackson. It doesn’t have as much bass as the 770 but it’s far more detailed, so it’s my most detailed headphone. With the 6XX, it just “opened up” songs. With my other headphones all the instruments and vocals just mooshed together, but with the 6XX I got better separation and soundstage. Admittedly it wasn’t a stunning revelation, but it is a significant improvement.
Now about that bass - I booted up Peace and used Autoeq. It was very hard to hear a difference when equalized. I think having the preamp set to -6.4 db doesn’t help. But even when I set the preamp back to 0 (used autoclipping), it was hard to tell a difference. I have a feeling the 6XX is maxing out my Schiit stack, which makes me want to upgrade to the Magnius/Modius...
It’s a good headphone, but you need the proper equipment to get it singing. With the magni/modi, it all ready sounds better than any of my other headphones but I can “feel” it can do better if that makes sense.
Question: would there be an improvement if I just got a Magnius and connected it to the Modi? I’d be using a single-end input and using the Modius’s balanced output, so I wonder if there would be any improvement.
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
Is that your first open back headphone?
I’ve not heard either the 770s or the 6xxs. I’ve been tempted to get a pair of the 6xxs based on all the positive reviews but it’s hard to justify another pair of headphones
I have Grados (SR80, SR325) and the Sennheiser HD558 (not bad, equalizes fairly well).
They say because of their popularity, the HD6XX/650 has a familiar sound signature for a lot of audiophiles. If you have a decent amp, and are patient, the 6XX is excellent for the price, especially if you have a balanced amp and cable. After taxes I paid around $243 for the 6XX but it took over a month to arrive.
Massdrop x Sennheiser HD 6XX | Top Rated Open-Back Headphones | Drop
Our all-time best selling open-back audiophile headphones, the Massdrop x Sennheiser HD 6XX is a replacement to the original HD 650 with a refreshed aesthetic & improved utility.
drop.com
It looks like the next batch won’t ship until May 31st
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
I have Grados (SR80, SR325) and the Sennheiser HD558 (not bad, equalizes fairly well).
They say because of their popularity, the HD6XX/650 has a familiar sound signature for a lot of audiophiles. If you have a decent amp, and are patient, the 6XX is excellent for the price, especially if you have a balanced amp and cable. After taxes I paid around $243 for the 6XX but it took over a month to arrive.
Massdrop x Sennheiser HD 6XX | Top Rated Open-Back Headphones | Drop
Our all-time best selling open-back audiophile headphones, the Massdrop x Sennheiser HD 6XX is a replacement to the original HD 650 with a refreshed aesthetic & improved utility.
It looks like the next batch won’t ship until May 31st
I've got a pair of DT 1990 Pros as my dailies. I have ATH M50xs & Sennhesier Momentum 2 On-ears as well. I power them with a Modi/Magni combo and haven't had much for complaints. I have been eyeing the Modius & Magnius but I feel it's probably excessive for what I have.
I tend to use my speakers more than anything. I greatly prefer those over headphones nowadays.
Still Waiting for the Loki Mini+ to ship. That will be the last piece of kit I buy for a while.
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
The next closed back headphones I’d like to get is the 1770.
For the HD6XX, I think at least a balanced amp is the best way to get the most out of it, particularly if you want to EQ.
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Korranator
Member
After my visit to Schiit's retail store were I demoed, the magni/modi, magnius/modius, asgard, and bifrost/valhalla. I honestly think the magni does hold the modi back, and if you look at Schiitt's product lineup you can see they have the same opinion (reading between the lines here). The modi3+ has a AK4490 inside, same DAC you can order with the Asgard, and even the Jotunheim. The Modius is a different animal using the higher end AK4493. The specs on each headphone amp tell the true story and you can hear the difference on each:
Magni = Maximum Power, 16 ohms: 2.8W RMS per channel
Magnius = Single-Ended Maximum Power, 16 ohms: 2.2W RMS per channel/ Balanced Maximum Power, 16 ohms: 6.0W RMS per channel
Asgard = Maximum Power, 16 ohms: 5W RMS per channel
Jotunheim = Single-Ended Maximum Power, 16 ohms: 2.4W RMS per channel/ Balanced Maximum Power, 16 ohms: 7.5W RMS per channel.
If you want to stay single ended and not satisfied with the magni/modi then the Asgard with the AK4490 is the cheapest way to go, or balanced magnius/modius. The draw back of going balanced requires more money on cables.
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Thanks for the tips. I’m thinking of eventually going the magnius/modius route. A few questions:
- I have a Modi 3. Is there much of a difference between that and the 3+?
- Could I initially get a Magnius and hook it up to the modi via RCA, or is that a waste?
Korranator
Member
1. I'm honestly don't know the specs of their older modi 3 model, but you could probably find them online somewhere or ask Schiit themselves.
2. It would be a waste or a downgrade to be honest. 2.8W RMS down to 2.2W RMS. Where the magnius shines is balanced at 6.0W RMS.
Would it be a waste to connect the Modi to the Magnius via RCA, then connect my HD 6XX to the Magnius via xlr (balanced)? Would I get the full 6 watts?
Korranator
Member
I don't see why not in theory that hook up should not effect it's output, but would contact Schiit and ask them.
General observations about the audiophile experience:
- the low end seems to get better and better
- the whole format war argument (lossless vs mp3, etc) is moot if the recording is bad. A well recorded, well mixed and mastered song will be apparent even on an MP3
- I find it’s good to remember a song you like and try to imagine how you’d like it to sound, and then try to find equipment that will get you there
- the advice is true - start with the thing that makes the noise and move backwards. Focus on the buying the headphone/speaker before getting the amp/dac
- to my surprise, a good headphone can redeem a bad recording (to a degree)
- some headphones equalize well, others can’t handle it
- like with other hobbies (like gaming) there’s a huge sense of elitism. You’re not really “serious” about the hobby unless you spend at least thousands of dollars on equipment
- as with other hobbies and pursuits, you have to learn when to stop. Spend time with new equipment, learn the ins and outs before you buy something else. Unless you’re this guy:
What have you guys observed?
- the low end seems to get better and better
- the whole format war argument (lossless vs mp3, etc) is moot if the recording is bad. A well recorded, well mixed and mastered song will be apparent even on an MP3
- I find it’s good to remember a song you like and try to imagine how you’d like it to sound, and then try to find equipment that will get you there
- the advice is true - start with the thing that makes the noise and move backwards. Focus on the buying the headphone/speaker before getting the amp/dac
- to my surprise, a good headphone can redeem a bad recording (to a degree)
- some headphones equalize well, others can’t handle it
- like with other hobbies (like gaming) there’s a huge sense of elitism. You’re not really “serious” about the hobby unless you spend at least thousands of dollars on equipment
- as with other hobbies and pursuits, you have to learn when to stop. Spend time with new equipment, learn the ins and outs before you buy something else. Unless you’re this guy:
What have you guys observed?
Mistershine.
Banned
I've sold a £1500 0.5M USB cable, people will buy anything if the think it'll make a bit of difference.
regawdless
Banned
I've tried many different cables from cheap to extremely expensive, doing a blind test with a friend. There is no difference. Like, really none.
It's the craziest thing that some people are obsessed with cables. Pick one that's light, looks cool and is well build, be happy and never think about it again.
Might be different on HiFi systems with speakers. But not on headphones.
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
I tend to stick with either BlueJeans or Audioquest Evergreen, whichever is cheaper. I prefer the Evergreens due to how much easier they are to work with. The BJ ones are so bulky, it makes routing difficult over short distances.
Actually ordered 2 sets of Pyst Snake Oils cables with the Loki Mini+ to try out. Mainly because of how short they are.
Actually ordered 2 sets of Pyst Snake Oils cables with the Loki Mini+ to try out. Mainly because of how short they are.
Emailed Schiit, got this response:
“ You'll get more power output from the Magnius' balanced output, regardless if a single ended or balanced connection to the Magnius is used. ”
Con_Z_ǝdʇ
Live from NeoGAF, it's Friday Night!
I second that and hope it gets even better as technology progresses.
It is definitely something to argue about. I agree to what you wrote and would like to add that the render quality is also important. Like bit depth, sample rate or overall bitrate.
The format itself doesn't tell the whole story.
I stated it already in this thread, about headphones, but it is also true for other sound converters that we are at a point where it is also about your personal preference and not just about quality.
We have so many good sounding equipment that suits to a lot of music overall but not to every music genre perfectly. It is also not that easy to find something that covers diverse tastes at once.
It is also really interesting to change something in signal chain or signal flow once you establish a good one to see what changes you get.
Can, yes. It has to do with the sound signature of the headphone. While many of them pretend to be neutral in frequency response they are actually not.
And while they boost certain frequencies some records may sound better. Goes hand in hand with what you said about remembering a song you like and finding the best converter.
Once you get something that is called obsession it is really difficult to argue on an objective basis. Some friends tell me that it is all about clean electricity. Just like the japanese guy in the video you posted.
They spend thousand of dollars for something like the Gordian Lab 12 and tell me i know nothing if i don't use this thing. You have to draw the line somewhere.
Once you start investing in better quality equipment it becomes clear that the more you invest the better the sound you will get.
But just to a certain point. Diminishing returns is the term, i think. After that it is more about characteristics.
Con_Z_ǝdʇ
Live from NeoGAF, it's Friday Night!
I tried pure copper and pure silver cables from about 100€ to 600€ for headphones and speakers.
I say as long as the build quality is good and the materials are clean you sure don't have to spend 1000€ or more for good cables.
And that is just the beginning.
You can buy a car for that.
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
I love that John started doing these:
Korranator
Member
lol you guys are killing me here.
Like any hobby, there will always be elitist's who try to ruin it for everyone else.
Like any hobby, there will always be elitist's who try to ruin it for everyone else.
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
I'm telling my mom on you.
Korranator
Member
For those wondering what I final decided upon, I went a bit over my budget and bought the Bifrost ($700 ouch). The sound so far is amazing, instant noticeable upgrade from my modi-muli/magni that was neck and neck with my Yamaha RXA700. It really just opened up the sound stage to amazing levels, and I'm hearing things that either were barely noticeable in the background or just more detailed.
Now I just have to decide on which amp to keep. Either the Asgard or the Jotunheim. I just got the packages yesterday, and today is when I was able to really listen to them. For now I'm using the Asgard, and will continue for a day or so then switch. More later.
Now I just have to decide on which amp to keep. Either the Asgard or the Jotunheim. I just got the packages yesterday, and today is when I was able to really listen to them. For now I'm using the Asgard, and will continue for a day or so then switch. More later.
What made you choose the Bifrost over the Modius?
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Korranator
Member
Currawong nails the comparison for me, and describes it better than I could. I also like his hint and can't wait to do my own comparison that the Bifrost can do even better than what the Asgard offers.
I personally prefer the older R2R multi-bit DAC sound over the newer Delta sigma. IMO it opens the sound stage more and gives it more depth.
I personally prefer the older R2R multi-bit DAC sound over the newer Delta sigma. IMO it opens the sound stage more and gives it more depth.
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regawdless
Banned
Most headphones benefit from better amplification to a certain degree. My Focal Clear are easy to run and have low impedance, but connecting them to a good amp opens them up and improves the sound.
Different headphones scale differently though. I use a cheap JDS Atom and the sound is amazing, there's no need for more power for the Clear in my case.
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Update on my HD6XX: well, it’s my best headphone. The separation, soundstage and clarity trump all my other headphones. Switching between the 6XX and the DT 770, the 770 sounds very compressed and even “mushy” in comparison.
Question: I want a closed back balanced headphone to complement my HD6XX. I like the sound signature of the 770 pro, but want more in terms of at least detail and separation. Even though it’s twice as much as the 6XX, would the DT 1770 Pro complement the 6XX in terms of quality?
Question: I want a closed back balanced headphone to complement my HD6XX. I like the sound signature of the 770 pro, but want more in terms of at least detail and separation. Even though it’s twice as much as the 6XX, would the DT 1770 Pro complement the 6XX in terms of quality?
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regawdless
Banned
The new Focal Clear MG (not Pro) is so damn beautiful.
Here's a good review comparing it to the OG Clear and the Elex. Spoiler, the MG and OG Clear sound nearly identical with just very small differences.
Here's a good review comparing it to the OG Clear and the Elex. Spoiler, the MG and OG Clear sound nearly identical with just very small differences.
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
The Kef Q150 are on sale for $300 again:
Amazon.com: KEF Q150B Q150 Bookshelf Speakers (Pair, Black): Home Audio & Theater
Buy KEF Q150B Q150 Bookshelf Speakers (Pair, Black): Everything Else - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases
www.amazon.com
dead monkey uk
Member
Have a look at AKG K371s they are closed back, I bought them to replace a set of DT770 at work. I like the K371s far more than I ever liked the DT770s.
Korranator
Member
Has anyone wrote up a tier list on DACs and Headphone Amps?
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
Yeah, they're all over the internet. Lots of YouTubers especially. Reddit has a guide by price point, but it seems to be super out of date.
Korranator
Member
Thanks, I'll have to research it a bit more.
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
Budget is definitely the best starting point. Which headphones are you going to be driving?
Korranator
Member
I was just curious. Tier lists can a useful guideline.
regawdless
Banned
The more I see and hear about the HiFiman Arya, the more I want it. Especially regarding it's soundstage. Would be the perfect partner for my Focal Clear, with it being great intimate, dynamic headphones with a heavy punch. While the Arya has a wide stage and perfect balance, without slamming that much in the bass region.
BUT the price is just too much for me in the foreseeable future. My Zeus have to suffice until then.
BUT the price is just too much for me in the foreseeable future. My Zeus have to suffice until then.
macfoshizzle
Member
Anyone into vintage speakers? I’m looking for one now under $100. Any brands to look out for?
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
This might be controversial but I skip over vintage gear most of the time simply because of how much better gear has gotten in the past 20 years or so. High quality can be had at much cheaper price points and less hassle to match amps.
Of course there are exceptions to this. I would honestly just go case by case.
Another question: do any of you use Windows 10 as a music player/source? I looked up a few tidbits online and came away with this:
- they say set your output to 44.1/24-bit because anything above that would be compromised by the OS’s upscaling
- you can bypass this issue using WASAPI which would give you bit perfect playback, I assume?
- in FOOBAR, you can use a component to link to your Spotify account, and then use WASAPI component to get bit perfect playback from Spotify on your computer
Does anyone else use FOOBAR for streaming services? How do you guys set up your computers for audio playback?
- they say set your output to 44.1/24-bit because anything above that would be compromised by the OS’s upscaling
- you can bypass this issue using WASAPI which would give you bit perfect playback, I assume?
- in FOOBAR, you can use a component to link to your Spotify account, and then use WASAPI component to get bit perfect playback from Spotify on your computer
Does anyone else use FOOBAR for streaming services? How do you guys set up your computers for audio playback?
macfoshizzle
Member
What you say is true. But you can get some really quality stuff that sounds just as good if not better for half the price. And there’s also something about the way they look and how it was made back then.
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
WASAPI overrides any post processing done by windows.
Not sure if you can integrate streaming services with Foobar. Tidal & Qoubuz tend to integrate with 3rd party platforms (Roon, Plex). But I haven’t seen anything related to Foobar.
Korranator
Member
Demoed and going to return the Sound Blaster X G6. For a $150 this little box sounds great. Musically, it's nothing special, but gaming is where it really shines. Take a modern game that focuses more on high end special effects some like the Total War series, and the SBX G6 creates a huge soundstage and does a fantastic job of imaging and creating a surround sound effect. Push the little scout mode button and it goes to the next level.
So why an I returning it? The software sucks. It constantly starts popping and eventually loses it's USB connection.
So why an I returning it? The software sucks. It constantly starts popping and eventually loses it's USB connection.
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
Maybe an external DAC & Amp will get the same results without the headache?
Korranator
Member
Actually the SBX G6 is a external DAC/AMP.
I really just wanted to hear it and see if it lived up to the hype. My original thought was to use it for gaming, but it's too buggy. I have read up on some possible fixes online, about disabling USB power management, but to be honest it wouldn't be worth the trouble in my case since the my Bifrost out performs it even when used in gaming. It think it would be better for console users where they wouldn't have to worry about such set ups. Just plug in it and go, and they would get a fantastic performance for a $150.