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[AngularSaxophone]

If the holy spirit is god what is the holy spirit?

The Holy Spirit isn’t “God” The Father. She’s the Holy Spirit although she is in AGREEMENT with God meaning witness and in doing his will just as Christ did.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

In what respect is the person being worshipped?

(for the third time now)

Asking me "and how is it not worship?" is not answering the question.

Calling to attention our past is how we can preserve "the great cloud of witnesses" spoken about in Hebrews 12 for the purpose of "[throwing] off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and [letting] us run with perseverance the race marked out for us".

When you conflate a feast to idol worship, I'd expect you to back up your position instead of falling prey to the warning in Titus: "But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless."

In how many different ways do I need to say it? You’re saying this is doctrine given to ALL CHURCHES. Therefore changing it from an intimate family event to something the entire church is supposed to be on board with. I don’t know who this woman is. I never met her. She never preached the gospel to me nor is she my salvation. Why am I supposed to join in feast for her again?

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

In how many different ways do I need to say it? You’re saying this is doctrine given to ALL CHURCHES. Therefore changing it from an intimate family event to something the entire church is supposed to be on board with. I don’t know who this woman is. I never met her. She never preached the gospel to me nor is she my salvation. Why am I supposed to join in feast for her again?

I never said "doctrine", and I could be wrong (can't speak for others) but I do not believe any church believes this "doctrine" needs to be followed as an essential part of a person's walk with Christ. I may be speaking out of ignorance here, so if there are examples of Christian members being "compelled" to follow these feasts I would not be in agreement with that stance.

The feasts themselves, though? I grew up (for instance) celebrating Passover with a Messianic message interwoven throughout. Was it because we believed YHWH required our lamb sacrifice or for us to paint the blood on the doors (both things which were omitted from our Seder)? Is that why we engaged in this ancient feast? No, it's because it was an excellent reminder of the continuity between God's covenant to the Hebrews of the Exodus and how it foreshadowed Christ's sacrifice.

Historical awareness might help you grasp the concept. In many parts of the world for much of the Christian church's history, they did not have unfettered access to copies of the Bible. Feasts, periods of fasting, and the structure of the liturgies have all played a very important role in communicating and preserving Christian truths when open access to the Bible was not available. For obvious reasons, providing access to the Bible is preferrable but it was by no means the default.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Passover is a far cry from putting some random person on par with the supper had by Christ and his disciples. She heal anyone? Cast out any demons? Raise any dead?

Let me ask a simple question. If you were alive in Peter’s time, and could ask him if we could dedicate a feast to him and make it so that feast would be had in his name among the churches, what do you think he’d say?

 

[VAL0R]

Passover is a far cry from putting some random person on par with the supper had by Christ and his disciples. She heal anyone? Cast out any demons? Raise any dead?

Let me ask a simple question. If you were alive in Peter’s time, and could ask him if we could dedicate a feast to him and make it so that feast would be had in his name among the churches, what do you think he’d say?

Of course Peter, in his humility, would say he was not worthy. Which makes him all the more worthy.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

And if God himself wants to give him a feast he’d do so in the new earth. Not this one. It’s not a matter of not being worthy. It’s a matter of knowing better to not put yourself at that level. Even the angels that walked the earth never let anyone bow to them or allow themselves to be exhaulted. The Son of God even gave all praise to the Father. If you want to praise anyone you could praise God for the work that was done by her obedience.

Back to Peter tho. So you say that he wouldn’t allow it which would be true, yet what is being done as far as these feasts go would be against his wishes but also against any teaching of Christ. Wouldn’t that effectively be going against the Church?

If Peter is one of the early church fathers, and scripture says that we do as we see our fathers doing, and we know he WOULDNT have a feast dedicated to himself, what does that say?

 

[AngularSaxophone]

I’ve been listening to this for the past couple days.



“So the sun stood still, And the moon stopped, Till the people had revenge Upon their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.”
‭‭Joshua‬ ‭10:13‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[Bolivar687]

I meditated on the Sorrowful Mysteries today - the agony in the garden and the arrest; the scourging at the pillar; the crowning with thorns; the carrying of the cross; and the crucifixion. I had to confront my own inability to conceive of such a prolonged culmination of injustice, humiliation, and violence. I read recently that contemporary society has made it all but impossible to understand the Paschal Mystery, because we've 1) used the atrocities of the 20th century to paint human nature as irredeemable, 2) trivialized sin by enthroning moral relativism, and 3) done away with our ability to empathize, or to understand the concept of earning the forgiveness of another, due to how individualistic and materialistic we've become. At the same time, many churches have turned away from emphasizing the crucifix, to instead place other, more wholesome representations front and center.

How do you guys stay mindful of the sacrifice?

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

I meditated on the Sorrowful Mysteries today - the agony in the garden and the arrest; the scourging at the pillar; the crowning with thorns; the carrying of the cross; and the crucifixion. I had to confront my own inability to conceive of such a prolonged culmination of injustice, humiliation, and violence. I read recently that contemporary society has made it all but impossible to understand the Paschal Mystery, because we've 1) used the atrocities of the 20th century to paint human nature as irredeemable, 2) trivialized sin by enthroning moral relativism, and 3) done away with our ability to empathize, or to understand the concept of earning the forgiveness of another, due to how individualistic and materialistic we've become. At the same time, many churches have turned away from emphasizing the crucifix, to instead place other, more wholesome representations front and center.

This is thoughtful. Thanks for posting it. I was confirmed into the Lutheran church this past year (although I've been a Christian since childhood) and I appreciate the Lutherans liturgical approach to church service. Our pastor's messages are simple and there is always a reading from a Gospel passage every Sunday. Coming from an evangelical background and having quite a lot of experience with "outreach" and "evangelism", this sometimes struck me as "plain". However, truth of the matter is these simple mysteries are far harder to hang on to and need to be repeated. We don't need the window-dressing and "wholesome representations" (as you put it) to be the focus. The Gospel itself is too easy to forget. The sacrifice itself is too easy to forget. We need to have a "bitter reminder" -- like the sprigs of celery leaves in saltwater in the Seder -- of the hardships endured, not just the positive message of the resurrection.

I don't dwell on the sacrifice as if to fetishize it, though. Or even to scold myself, like "starving kids in Africa would eat that broccoli" kind of scolding... "you'd better not do that! Christ had to endure that whip, don't forget!" and waving a finger. It makes more sense to focus my gratitude on the One who did the sacrificing.

How do you guys stay mindful of the sacrifice?

I already kinda answered this above, so I'll add something else: one of the things my family did growing up was a Messianic Seder. It made a clear connection between the historical Seder -- preserved in Jewish heritage, mind you, not in Scripture itself -- and the Christian message. To hear these ancient Jewish stories and symbolism and then to see it connect to the gospel is a cool facet of Christianity that most people don't get to experience. Anyway, one of the mini-messages in the seder is that of bitter herbs dipped in saltwater, to represent the crying/tears of slavery in Egypt and the bitterness of slave-labor. This is analogous of course to the Christian notion of being sorrowful for your sin. It's not meant to be pleasant, but there is a purpose to the reminder.

Anyway, I brought that up because I always found it cool how even in old pre-Christian Jewish traditions you could see whisperings of the gospel message. More learnings about Seder. And the Haggadah.

 

[mcz117chief]

How do you guys stay mindful of the sacrifice?

Where I live there are still many crosses with Christ so that is the most obvious way. The other would be mass, occasional contemplation like you described and confession or a conversation with other people.

 

[Bolivar687]

Anyway, I brought that up because I always found it cool how even in old pre-Christian Jewish traditions you could see whisperings of the gospel message. More learnings about Seder. And the Haggadah.

Absolutely. I've been building a larger appreciation for Christianity's Jewish roots and how indispensable it all is to really understand Jesus. Too many people want to invert Matthew 5:17 and insist he abolished the law, rather than fulfilled it. I'm also really appreciating the Jewish roots of the Catholic liturgy as well.

 

[CaliggyJack]

Man now I'm in the mood to read the Bible again for the 5th time and then forget everything I read cuz my memory is whack.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Read Matthew mark luke John Hebrews and revelation.

 

[Humdinger]

Wow, you've got an actual thread on Christianity here. I'm impressed. I expected it to be filled with the usual trolling, but there's actual, thoughtful discussion...

 

[mcz117chief]

Absolutely. I've been building a larger appreciation for Christianity's Jewish roots and how indispensable it all is to really understand Jesus. Too many people want to invert Matthew 5:17 and insist he abolished the law, rather than fulfilled it. I'm also really appreciating the Jewish roots of the Catholic liturgy as well.

I actually wrote my dissertation on the relations between the OT and NT, specifically daemonology. The goal was to explain why there is very little to do with daemons in OT and yet we have such colourful accounts in NT, especially in Mark 5. My work took me to the intertestamental period, which is filled with truly amazing works especially the Dead Sea Scrolls and The Book of Henoch. My research helped me massively in understanding the relationship between the OT and NT and that was just through one tiny aspect. Studying the Bible and the works around it is truly amazing, you will never in your whole life understand everything that is written there, there is so much to discover and link together, truly the Book of books.

 

[Bolivar687]

I actually wrote my dissertation on the relations between the OT and NT, specifically daemonology. The goal was to explain why there is very little to do with daemons in OT and yet we have such colourful accounts in NT, especially in Mark 5. My work took me to the intertestamental period, which is filled with truly amazing works especially the Dead Sea Scrolls and The Book of Henoch. My research helped me massively in understanding the relationship between the OT and NT and that was just through one tiny aspect. Studying the Bible and the works around it is truly amazing, you will never in your whole life understand everything that is written there, there is so much to discover and link together, truly the Book of books.

I'm curious what kind of answers you found. I read that bringing people the one true God in place of the old pagan and tribal religions liberates them from their pantheons and fear of demons, bringing rationality to the world. However, the exorcisms that Jesus himself performed in the New Testament seem way too literal for this kind of interpretation.

Wow, you've got an actual thread on Christianity here. I'm impressed. I expected it to be filled with the usual trolling, but there's actual, thoughtful discussion...

There's still plenty of trolling just, thankfully, not the kind you would expect from OldGAF.

Happy Sunday everybody!

 

[mcz117chief]

I'm curious what kind of answers you found. I read that bringing people the one true God in place of the old pagan and tribal religions liberates them from their pantheons and fear of demons, bringing rationality to the world. However, the exorcisms that Jesus himself performed in the New Testament seem way too literal for this kind of interpretation.

There is no short answer, the best I could do is say that the Devil is real and mentioned many times in OT. Fallen angels are as well, but to a lesser extent. By looking at the NT daemons through the lens of a) the period; b) tradition; c) OT; d) intertestamental literature, we can see that daemons/fallen angels were something that people recognised and knew. Many communities had different interpretations of the daemonic, some, like the Greeks, didn't really pay that much attention to them, but others, like the people in the Qumran area, were very interested in it. I could go on and on, but my point is that daemons are in the OT and people's experiences with them have developed considerably over the centuries which lead to the NT.

 

[VAL0R]

There is no short answer, the best I could do is say that the Devil is real and mentioned many times in OT. Fallen angels are as well, but to a lesser extent. By looking at the NT daemons through the lens of a) the period; b) tradition; c) OT; d) intertestamental literature, we can see that daemons/fallen angels were something that people recognised and knew. Many communities had different interpretations of the daemonic, some, like the Greeks, didn't really pay that much attention to them, but others, like the people in the Qumran area, were very interested in it. I could go on and on, but my point is that daemons are in the OT and people's experiences with them have developed considerably over the centuries which lead to the NT.

The demon Asmodeus plays a large role in the OT book of Tobit, in the Bible. (I understand this book has been removed from Protestant translations.)

 

[mcz117chief]

The demon Asmodeus plays a large role in the OT book of Tobit, in the Bible. (I understand this book has been removed from Protestant translations.)

Yes, that is one of the most explicit examples in the OT.

 

[jdforge]

I was successful in obtaining tickets for the Final Mass at Phoenix Park Dublin with Pope Francis.

 

[Bolivar687]

The Corruption of Biblical Studies by Joshua Berman

This is a stellar article concerning modern Bible scholarship and why so much of it seems to dispute the authorship and message. Secularists have tried to use historical criticism of the Bible's legitimacy as a means of attacking the faith for centuries now and although it generally hasn't had the impact they might like, these criticisms are something Christians will inevitably hear. Also a good commentary on what's been happening at Universities in general with respect to the humanities and social sciences, where everything is expected to support the cultural warrior code, or it is otherwise ostracized and suppressed.

 

[7echnicolor]

how on earth is this not in ot community yet lol

 

[AngularSaxophone]

The Church is in need of prayer. One true church my ass. The spirit IS NOT at the Catholic Church.

 

[Straight Edge]

The Church is in need of prayer. One true church my ass. The spirit IS NOT at the Catholic Church.

Is there another organization on earth so dedicated to mass pedophilia and child abuse as the Catholic church? Why aren't Catholics taking the hierarchy to task? Why aren't the dioceses purging these perverts with extreme prejudice?

 

[AngularSaxophone]

The Official Church of God Seems to have a thing for blatantly disregarding scripture

“But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner— not even to eat with such a person. For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.””
‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭5:11-13‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[hecatomb]

I'm wondering what some of you think if Jesus and God are the same being. For some time I don't think they are, for 1 God said he made everything, which means Jesus didn't. And God mentions Jesus as his son.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

You’re correct. He’s the Son of God BUT you have to look at God as a title with big G God being the one true creator and not a lower case g god like many of the other so called “mythical” gods. I say God is a title because Christ is the heir of all things by his Father and is made God and called God by his Father in Hebrews 1. The way to truly distinguish it is the Father always is and was, His son was born and born before he came thru Mary. Read revelation 12.

As far as God making everything, He, the Father created everything and Christ, the son built everything is the easiest way to explain that one as they were both present at creation yet all things were done through Christ. The Father commands, The son does the will of the Father.

 

[VAL0R]

I'm wondering what some of you think if Jesus and God are the same being. For some time I don't think they are, for 1 God said he made everything, which means Jesus didn't. And God mentions Jesus as his son.

Yes, Jesus and God are the same being. That is to say, Jesus shares the divine nature. Which is to say, Jesus is God.

Christians say that the Father, the Son and the Spirit are distinct in "person" (in the theological sense) but one in being. One shared divine nature. There is only one God. There is only one divine being. This divine being exists as three distinct persons, called Trinity.

 

[VAL0R]

Also, John 1 does say that Jesus made everything. The "Word" or "Logos" is referring to Jesus here. Also note it says the "Word was God." Jesus was[is] God.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

False doctrine and it’s why your church is so far from God. 1000 kids diddled in one state and you just glance over it as if nothing happened. He was with God because *gasp* he was, and he was God because he did everything his Father instructed him to do his Fathers DNA was all over everything. The Catholic Church isn’t qualified to interpret anything. What’s this thing about Papa Frankie being the last pope? Some prophecy about the 112th pope after some other one or something. Maybe it’s time for Rome’s fall.

 

[hecatomb]

Yes, Jesus and God are the same being. That is to say, Jesus shares the divine nature. Which is to say, Jesus is God.

Christians say that the Father, the Son and the Spirit are distinct in "person" (in the theological sense) but one in being. One shared divine nature. There is only one God. There is only one divine being. This divine being exists as three distinct persons, called Trinity.

ya cause at the time of creation and before there was nothing, there was only God, it said in the Bible, which means Jesus wasn't around at the time, unless he was part of God the whole time.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

ya cause at the time of creation and before there was nothing, there was only God, it said in the Bible, which means Jesus wasn't around at the time, unless he was part of God the whole time.

Exactly. Again, read revelation 12. In fact here.

“Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:1-5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

You have to read the whole thing but this is the birth of Christ. The key of that whole passage is the iron rod. Christ himself mentions that iron rod again in a couple places and says it was given to him by his Father.

She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:1-5‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them. He rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying, “I have installed my king on Zion, my holy mountain.” I will proclaim the LORD’s decree: He said to me, “You are my son; today I have become your father. Ask me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession. You will break them with a rod of iron; you will dash them to pieces like pottery.” Therefore, you kings, be wise; be warned, you rulers of the earth.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭2:4-10‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’ —just as I have received authority from my Father.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:26-27‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: king of kings and lord of lords.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭19:11-16‬

“For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”? But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.” And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.” But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.””
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭1:5-9‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Also, John 1 does say that Jesus made everything. The "Word" or "Logos" is referring to Jesus here. Also note it says the "Word was God." Jesus was[is] God.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.

So nothing to say? These people put faith in the church and trust in the men that lead them and this stuff keep running rampant.

 

[VAL0R]

ya cause at the time of creation and before there was nothing, there was only God, it said in the Bible, which means Jesus wasn't around at the time, unless he was part of God the whole time.

To be clear, the man Jesus was not with God in the beginning. But the Son of God, who is the same person as the man Jesus, was with God. That passage in John 1 I quoted specifically says that the "Word" (The Son) was with God. It says "all things" were made by him. Here is a more literal translation:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 [a]He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being

All things that have come into being (existence), came into being through the Word (Son). Everything outside of God has "come into being." Only God is absolute, necessary and eternal. So the Word/Son who was "with God" and "was God" was also absolute, necessary and eternal because he created every contingent thing, every non-eternal thing (everything but God).

Jesus the man was born and came into existence around the year 0. God added this human nature to the divine nature of the eternal Son. So that we say the Word/Son has two natures (human and divine) in one inseparable person. So Jesus is the God-man. To kiss his feet, for example, is to kiss the feet of God. So when someone says Jesus is eternal, they are speaking generally of the Son, who is the same person as Jesus, and who existed before the human nature of Jesus was forever added to the divine nature.

I have to go to work now. No time to clean this up much...

Edit: So God did create his own human nature and added it to the eternal divine nature, inseparably and forever. (Which is absolutely mind-boggling to me.)

 

[AngularSaxophone]

From the mouth of Christ himself.

““If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true. You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light. But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?””
‭‭John‬ ‭5:31-40, 42-47‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

The scripture that backs it up

“This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.”
‭‭I John‬ ‭5:6-13‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

The false doctrine Catholicism teaches actively makes God into a liar as it states right there you need two witnesses to testify and Christ can’t testify of himself. Genesis says let US make man in OUR image because there were more than one there. it was three, not two because wisdom was also here during creation. There were also all three present at Christ’s baptism.

“When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:16-17‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[AngularSaxophone]

As a bonus, here’s wisdom.

“Does not wisdom cry out, And understanding lift up her voice? She takes her stand on the top of the high hill, Beside the way, where the paths meet. She cries out by the gates, at the entry of the city, At the entrance of the doors: “To you, O men, I call, And my voice is to the sons of men. O you simple ones, understand prudence, And you fools, be of an understanding heart. Listen, for I will speak of excellent things, And from the opening of my lips will come right things; For my mouth will speak truth; Wickedness is an abomination to my lips. All the words of my mouth are with righteousness; Nothing crooked or perverse is in them. They are all plain to him who understands, And right to those who find knowledge. Receive my instruction, and not silver, And knowledge rather than choice gold; For wisdom is better than rubies, And all the things one may desire cannot be compared with her. “I, wisdom, dwell with prudence, And find out knowledge and discretion. The fear of the LORD is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverse mouth I hate. Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom; I am understanding, I have strength. By me kings reign, And rulers decree justice. By me princes rule, and nobles, All the judges of the earth. I love those who love me, And those who seek me diligently will find me. Riches and honor are with me, Enduring riches and righteousness. My fruit is better than gold, yes, than fine gold, And my revenue than choice silver. I traverse the way of righteousness, In the midst of the paths of justice, That I may cause those who love me to inherit wealth, That I may fill their treasuries. “The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. I have been established from everlasting, From the beginning, before there was ever an earth. When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I was brought forth; While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, Or the primal dust of the world. When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep, When He established the clouds above, When He strengthened the fountains of the deep, When He assigned to the sea its limit, So that the waters would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth, Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, Rejoicing in His inhabited world, And my delight was with the sons of men. “Now therefore, listen to me, my children, For blessed are those who keep my ways. Hear instruction and be wise, And do not disdain it. Blessed is the man who listens to me, Watching daily at my gates, Waiting at the posts of my doors. For whoever finds me finds life, And obtains favor from the LORD; But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul; All those who hate me love death.””
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭8:1-36‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

I’ll even go a step further and tell you Wisdom existed before Christ did. Read the last three sets of scripture I posted between the three posts and you should be able to put that together.

 

[Airola]

The scripture that backs it up

“This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.”
‭‭I John‬ ‭5:6-13‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
‬‬

May I boomerang that condescending smiley back to you:
Do you even read and think those pieces of Scripture through before you filter them through whatever concept you have created (probably with the help of online texts and videos made by other men) in your head?

This is now the Nth time you have said the same things and they still make just as little sense as they did before.
I'm sure you reply "but they are in agreement" to this as you have done again and again and again, and it will be just as nonsensical as it has been before.

You just don't get how they can be the same and be separate at the same time.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

May I boomerang that condescending smiley back to you:
Do you even read and think those pieces of Scripture through before you filter them through whatever concept you have created (probably with the help of online texts and videos made by other men) in your head?

This is now the Nth time you have said the same things and they still make just as little sense as they did before.
I'm sure you reply "but they are in agreement" to this as you have done again and again and again, and it will be just as nonsensical as it has been before.

You just don't get how they can be the same and be separate at the same time.

It’s not nonsensical. Go back to Hebrews 1. What do you make of God making Christ heir of all things and Calling him God at that point? If Christ always was who you think he is, how does that fit into what Hebrews is saying? How does that fit into the baptism when God CALLS CHRIST HIS SON? The only way someone can be a father and a son at the same time is to have a father and also have a son at the same time. I’m not also a father until I have a son. You can’t have God masquerading as three different beings but all the same because that makes his testimony a lie because he’d be testifying for himself. Testimony NEVER works that way in the Bible.

 

[Airola]

It’s not nonsensical. Go back to Hebrews 1. What do you make of God making Christ heir of all things and Calling him God at that point? If Christ always was who you think he is, how does that fit into what Hebrews is saying? How does that fit into the baptism when God CALLS CHRIST HIS SON? The only way someone can be a father and a son at the same time is to have a father and also have a son at the same time. You can’t be both in one being.

He gave the part of him that was to come to earth in flesh this power. There always were three parts of God. Just as that one part wasn't always Flesh, the Word part might not always have been called Son. It could've been a nominal transformation. The part of him that is the Word is now also his Son and will be there to enter the world and save the mankind.

Jesus is the Word and has always existed. He is also called the Son because that's what the relationship among the Word and Father parts ended up to be.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Sorry but that’s just not true. Nothing in scripture says as much as far as their relationship goes. Let me ask this way. Who was Christ supposed to be in prophecy? If Christ is the lamb OF God, then who is God? I’ll go even simpler. You’re a man and someone’s son. Who’s your father? Can you be your own father? I mean why was everyone calling him the SON of God? Why would have everyone who he came across who knew of the prophecy just called him God? Why doesn’t he ever call himself God? And please don’t go to the “I am” line.

 

[Airola]

Sorry but that’s just not true. Nothing in scripture says as much as far as their relationship goes. Let me ask this way. Who was Christ supposed to be in prophecy? If Christ is the lamb OF God, then who is God? I’ll go even simpler. You’re a man and someone’s son. Who’s your father? Can you be your own father?

A part of God is the lamb of God. A part of God is the Word. A part of God is the Father. A part of God is the Holy Spirit. The part that is the Word is also called the Son and that part is the Son of the Father. That part is not the Son of the Spirit, but it is the Son of the Father.

Come on, you can't compare the biological relationships of human beings to the relationships of the parts of a non-biological, non-physical, immaterial entity.

The most amazing part of the concept of Trinity is that it was God himself who came to endure human suffering with us. It's not only about sacrificing a son but it's also about experiencing the calamities of mankind with us.


Imagine if you could leave your body to wander around the world in a spirit form. Now imagine your body still being able to be in full control and having full consciousness and perhaps even be able to see what the wandering spirit is able to see. The part that is wandering around might call the part that stayed his Father and the part that stayed could call the part that is wandering around his Son, even though they are both part of the same thing.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

If it’s part of God then why does it sit next to God instead of inside of Him? If Christ is part of God, why did God need to snatch him up to His throne? I can say my son is part of me but he’s not me. Christ says he was sent by his father. He doesn’t say he sent himself here. Why would he even need to do the will of His Father? If they’re the same he’d be doing his own will. God is a title. His name isn’t God. Why would they have two different names if they were the same being? This is like simple stuff.

I have a question tho and hopefully you won’t dodge this one. How did the original church of the 12 go from a group of Hebrews to a bunch of Italians, Romans and Spaniards? If the gospel was supposed to be preached to the world, don’t you find it odd that the original teachers have no part in the church even today? In fact they’ve basically been white washed out? What’s with that?

 

[appaws]

I have a question tho and hopefully you won’t dodge this one. How did the original church of the 12 go from a group of Hebrews to a bunch of Italians, Romans and Spaniards? If the gospel was supposed to be preached to the world, don’t you find it odd that the original teachers have no part in the church even today? In fact they’ve basically been white washed out? What’s with that?

You know the answer to that. Christ came to the Jews, they rejected him. The apostles went out and brought Christ to many nations, and over time many of them embraced him, Nobody was "white washed." Some of those people who embraced him were Asians, Syrians, Ethiopians, etc.

After the temple Jewish religion collapsed, eventually Rabbinic Judaism grew to replace it. Many religious scholars observe that they are two incredibly distinct religious faiths in and of themselves.

Are you saying the 12 apostles were "white washed" out? I'm dumbfounded as to what you could possibly mean by that....

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Well the Hebrews of now are saying the story is all mixed up. Reading the Bible for myself I can say I believe them.

 

[Airola]

If it’s part of God then why does it sit next to God instead of inside of Him? If Christ is part of God, why did God need to snatch him up to His throne? I can say my son is part of me but he’s not me. Christ says he was sent by his father. He doesn’t say he sent himself here. Why would he even need to do the will of His Father? If they’re the same he’d be doing his own will. God is a title. His name isn’t God. Why would they have two different names if they were the same being? This is like simple stuff.

People who believe in Trinity already believe that the Father was in Heaven while Christ was on Earth, and the Holy Spirit wherever. Why would you think sitting next to him would suddenly make any believer in Trinity to shake up their beliefs? This is GOD we are talking about. He is not subject to space and time. He can be one and still be scattered around any way he wants to be and still remain being one. Each part of him has their own missions and jobs to do. Each part has its own purpose. People already believe The Holy Spirit does different things than the Father yet they think it's part of the same God. Why would the Word having purpose of its own be any different from that? People who believe in Trinity see no problem in anything you have said.

I have a question tho and hopefully you won’t dodge this one. How did the original church of the 12 go from a group of Hebrews to a bunch of Italians, Romans and Spaniards? If the gospel was supposed to be preached to the world, don’t you find it odd that the original teachers have no part in the church even today? In fact they’ve basically been white washed out? What’s with that?

I have no idea what you are on about.

Are you asking how the twelve spread out and expanded into groups of people from different nations? I mean, they were asked to spread the Gospel to the whole world so I would assume if they are successful it would spread to Italy and Spain and everywhere. Like, I don't understand at all what you problem here is. "White washed", what? Or do you mean we don't appreciate the original twelve people enough? Or that someone claims those twelve were Italians? I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[VAL0R]

Airola , I would be careful not to speak of God as having "parts", as one might speak of a material object. God has no parts, but is one in being, a "simple" spirit. How one being can exist as three distinct "persons" is a profound mystery of our faith, as you know. And shouldn't we expect the nature of the eternally necessary being to be far different than ours and mysterious to our intellects?

 

[AngularSaxophone]

How is it that God has no beginning or end but Christ is the first and the last?

 

[Bolivar687]

Isaiah 41:4 - Who has performed and done this, calling the generations from the beginning? I, the Lord, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Isaiah 48:12 - Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Isaiah is full of prophecy about Christ.

 

[VAL0R]

Of course I'm speaking of the divine nature. Now that God has a human nature in Jesus, Jesus who is God, does have parts because he has a physical body. You know what I mean, I think.