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DC Extended Universe |OT2| A League of xX-=DaMaGeD=-Xx Gentlemen

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I

IconGrist

Member
Discotheque said:
For sure. Have your problems with the snyder verse. That's fine. But the minute people say useless garbage like "doesn't get the character" it always ends up being a dull argument.

Implying the entitled fans have such ownership over these properties when they should realize that everything, including the comics they read, is an adaptation.

I wonder if batman fans were this crazy about it when frank miller worked on him back in the day. The Tim Burton movie prolly gave fanboys a heart attack
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I was going to make a long post about personally defining a character that has been defined and redefined over and over again for the past 8 decades but I think your short post here explains it just fine.

It's not that Snyder doesn't get Superman, he doesn't get your Superman. Which is a very different thing and is going to rear its ugly head whenever someone tries to explore the character. Look at CW Superman and how much he was praised for being the "right" Superman. But what did he do? He smiled a lot for no real reason, he complained about kryptonite (failing to realize Earth might have been overrun if the DEO hadn't been in possession of it) and he lifted some heavy stuff. It was like a caricature of the Superman I grew up with and I found it repugnant. But I don't go around telling everyone every chance I get that those writers didn't "get" Superman. It's just an adapted version that I happened to not be a fan of. It's not the writer's fault their version didn't match up to mine or even a version I would be accepting of. Snyder's Superman is the same way. Pointing fingers at him for that is a bit childish if you ask me.
 
B

broncobuster

Banned
15,000 posts...

CHaBhCI.gif



What are the the rules for when we need a new OT? This thread has become a breeding ground for suffering and injustice. It is beyond saving and must be allowed to die.
 
T

The Cretan

Member
Mix Master said:
Snyder just needs to get off of dc films, dude is wasting his prime on cape flicks. he could be doing much more.
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I think he would be better suited for something like a movie which is a mixture of noir and action, you know, dark and all that jazz, but with violence and chases. Kinda like Batman of BvS meets Drive. This way he can combine his top tier director of photography with his skills in directing action shots in a R rating movie.
 
B

Bleepey

Member
The Icon said:
I was going to make a long post about personally defining a character that has been defined and redefined over and over again for the past 8 decades but I think your short post here explains it just fine.

It's not that Snyder doesn't get Superman, he doesn't get your Superman. Which is a very different thing and is going to rear its ugly head whenever someone tries to explore the character. Look at CW Superman and how much he was praised for being the "right" Superman. But what did he do? He smiled a lot for no real reason, he complained about kryptonite (failing to realize Earth might have been overrun if the DEO hadn't been in possession of it) and he lifted some heavy stuff. It was like a caricature of the Superman I grew up with and I found it repugnant. But I don't go around telling everyone every chance I get that those writers didn't "get" Superman. It's just an adapted version that I happened to not be a fan of. It's not the writer's fault their version didn't match up to mine or even a version I would be accepting of. Snyder's Superman is the same way. Pointing fingers at him for that is a bit childish if you ask me.
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This is very true. I think the problem with Snyder is that he shows the cynical aspect of humanity better than a lot of people would admit to to themselves. Superman making himself known to the world won't lead to people looking into the clouds to him for safety and hope, no it would lead to people thinking God has been made flesh, governments freaking the fuck out etc etc. Hell, even Donner thought the same, only difference is Snyder focused on it by having Pa kent die for his convictions (keeping his son safe). I mean how different is this scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7C7EFrSQqlE

to this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUUGDRxJnFU

?
 
Dcube

Dcube

Member
It's funny but I never cared for Superman at all until Snyder's darker more flawed version. Always found him super boring and thought MoS would be just terrible going in. It was a real pleasant surprise. I think he gets Superman just fine, he just doesn't care and does his own thing which I cool by me. Just a different take.
 
T

thehypocrite

Member
Dcube said:
It's funny but I never cared for Superman at all until Snyder's darker more flawed version. Always found him super boring and thought MoS would be just terrible going in. It was a real pleasant surprise. I think he gets Superman just fine, he just doesn't care and does his own thing which I cool by me. Just a different take.
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Snyder made Superman relevant again in the silver screen. A true heroe. People talk about the old movies but it's like they don't get how the market ended up rejecting that interpretation.

http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/franchise/Superman#tab=summary
 
V

Vyer

Member
The problem isn't Snyder's 'different take' on Superman. The problem is he doesn't have the ability to really take some of the concepts he's introducing/using and actually doing anything with them beyond just the introduction stage.
 
A

Ashhong

Member
Vyer said:
The problem isn't Snyder's 'different take' on Superman. The problem is he doesn't have the ability to really take some of the concepts he's introducing/using and actually doing anything with them beyond just the introduction stage.
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It's honestly both. I can guarantee you that even if he was able to properly expand on the concept, there will still be many people who hate it because of his "different" take on the heroes. Without a doubt man.
 
B

Bleepey

Member
Ashhong said:
It's honestly both. I can guarantee you that even if he was able to properly expand on the concept, there will still be many people who hate it because of his "different" take on the heroes. Without a doubt man.
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Basically:

watchmen: does a page for page recreation of the comic with mostly minor deviations. It's too faithful, the lack of squid misses the point!

Batman and Superman: does notable changes that are atypical from the general canon but is supported by decades of comic and film precedent. Batman kills!?! Since when!?!
 
A

Ashhong

Member
Bleepey said:
Basically:

watchmen: does a page for page recreation of the comic with mostly minor deviations. It's too faithful, the lack of squid misses the point!

Batman and Superman: does notable changes that are atypical from the general canon but is supported by decades of comic and film precedent. Batman kills!?! Since when!?!
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Yea, and don't get me wrong, I'm not saying his movies or stories aren't without faults. They could be done better as well. I just don't think it would really matter much in the long run if his heroes are the way they are in BvS, which I am assuming will be changed in JL
 
N

Ninjimbo

Member
Vyer said:
The problem isn't Snyder's 'different take' on Superman. The problem is he doesn't have the ability to really take some of the concepts he's introducing/using and actually doing anything with them beyond just the introduction stage.
Click to expand...
What is this supposed to mean anyway? What is this 'ability' to take them beyond the introduction stage? Who are the directors who can?
 
B

Bleepey

Member
Ashhong said:
Yea, and don't get me wrong, I'm not saying his movies or stories aren't without faults. They could be done better as well. I just don't think it would really matter much in the long run if his heroes are the way they are in BvS, which I am assuming will be changed in JL
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The thing is, I find it weird that people allow Marvel characters to be flawed, but DC characters: nope. Tony Stark can be an irrational drunk, that calls out terrorists cos fuck it he can be, he can think of himself above being under govt control in one film but he is afforded the opportunity to have a character arc. Hell even Captain America is allowed to be a boy scout who thinks he is above govt authority the moment his role is questioned and audiences cheer it because in prior movies he is allowed to save people and is popular with the general population in the film. Snyder spends a movie where Superman tries to find his way in the world and another film where Superman explores unexpected consequences of his actions. Yet because he is not smiling every 5 seconds, is super but not omnipotent and is unable to save everyone on the day the world is introduced to the Superman, and despite being willing to hold himself to account audiences ignore this and praise Captain America's stubbornness. I don't care if this post can be summarised as "but Marvel" but the lack of attempts at rebuttalls makes me think I am right.
 
N

Ninjimbo

Member
Bleepey said:
The thing is, I find it weird that people allow Marvel characters to be flawed, but DC characters: nope. Tony Stark can be an irrational drunk, that calls out terrorists cos fuck it he can be, he can think of himself above being under govt control in one film but he is afforded the opportunity to have a character arc. Hell even Captain America is allowed to be a boy scout who thinks he is above govt authority the moment his role is questioned and audiences cheer it because in prior movies he is allowed to save people and is popular with the general population in the film. Snyder spends a movie where Superman tries to find his way in the world and another film where Superman explores unexpected consequences of his actions. Yet because he is not smiling every 5 seconds, is super but not omnipotent and is unable to save everyone on the day the world is introduced to the Superman, and despite being willing to hold himself to account audiences ignore this and praise Captain America's stubbornness. I don't care if this post can be summarised as "but Marvel" but the lack of attempts at rebuttalls makes me think I am right.
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I think most people allow DC characters to be flawed just like they do with Marvel. I honestly believe that the people who want that goofy, happy go lucky big guy Superman are vastly outnumbered by the people who just want to see a relateable character onscreen that can struggle and overcome his/her dilemmas. To them, Snyder's Superman seems more human.

The 'Superman doesn't smile' criticism doesn't really hold any weight whatsoever. It's a diluted version of a much stronger point that could be made but since we're on the internet, those people can't be bothered to elaborate and think about what they really want to say. Most of the time it's safe to assume it's rooted in bias.
 
Y

Yager

Banned
Bleepey, every single time you bring Marvel to the discussion. This has nothing to do with Marvel movies. The reality is that people like Marvel's product more; yes, their movies share a lot of similarities with DC's, but there's a difference in the execution of it's themes that happens to be more in line with what people want.

I get what you are saying, but this "everyone is against DC because of reasons!" argument needs to stop. Of course the media is biased, because right now what sells is that DCEU is doomed, but regular people don't give a fuck about that. There's no conspiracy against DC movies. And I say this as someone who loves MoS and BvS.
 
T

TropicalFish

Member
Mess at this thread being more dour than the actual movies themselves.

I'm still so very hyped for Wonder Woman. But I'm waiting for more leaks about a New Gods movie starring Mister Miracle and Big Barda/the furies to set up JL2. I want Big Barda on the big screen dammit.

I also want more info on Mera's role in JL. It'd be nice if she was made a JL member in the DCEU as well.
 
B

broncobuster

Banned
TropicalFish said:
Mess at this thread being more dour than the actual movies themselves.

I'm still so very hyped for Wonder Woman. But I'm waiting for more leaks about a New Gods movie starring Mister Miracle and Big Barda/the furies to set up JL2. I want Big Barda on the big screen dammit.

I also want more info on Mera's role in JL. It'd be nice if she was made a JL member in the DCEU as well.
Click to expand...

Mera and Vulko show up in some capacity in JL, as do other member's supporting casts, but I don't think it'll be significant enough for part 1.

Although per the synopsis, Atlantis and Themyscira each have a mother box. If one of Steppenwolf's objectives is to retrieve them, it'd be neat to see parademons try to take them back. And Mera, Hippolyta, etc fight them off.
 
O

okdakor

Member
Bleepey said:
Tony Stark can be an irrational drunk, that calls out terrorists cos fuck it he can be, he can think of himself above being under govt control

Captain America is allowed to be a boy scout who thinks he is above govt authority
Click to expand...

Basically, they're like the characters in the comics ?

A Superman who doesn't even try to save his father ? I know this version had shitty parents, but it doesn't sound right...
 
Y

Yager

Banned
okdakor said:
Basically, they're like the characters in the comics ?

A Superman who doesn't even try to save his father ? I know this version had shitty parents, but it doesn't sound right...
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We already talked about this countless times. It's not that he doesn't try, he wants to save him but his own father stops him from doing it.
 
O

okdakor

Member
Ashhong said:
Why do you think he had shitty parents?
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Because they created a character that a lot of people can't still see as Superman after 2 movies. I know, Snyder plays the long game, and the third time we'll all see that he is Superman now, that the 2 first movies were about him becoming the hero/symbol that the general audience is waiting for...

His choice to be Superman should have come from his father's encouragement to use his powers positively, instead of hiding... Pa Kent didn't have to die this day, with a tornado around, Clark could have saved him in a blink without nobody noticing.

Then his mother tries again to protect him with "you don't owe them a thing"... That what the prefect moment to have Clark answering something like "Mom, I'm going to help them because it's the right thing to do". Clark becomes Superman and his mom let go the kid who needed to hide.

"Always remember us"
Z0fOREP.png
 
Y

Yager

Banned
okdakor said:
His choice to be Superman should have come from his father's encouragement to use his powers positively, instead of hiding... Pa Kent didn't have to die this day, with a tornado around, Clark could have saved him in a blink without nobody noticing.

http://i.imgur.com/Z0fOREP.png[IMG][/QUOTE]

You say that based on previous interpretations of the character, because at that point in the movie Clark doesn't have superspeed, so that argument is invalid.
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L

LionPride

Banned
Yager said:
Bleepey, every single time you bring Marvel to the discussion. This has nothing to do with Marvel movies. The reality is that people like Marvel's product more; yes, their movies share a lot of similarities with DC's, but there's a difference in the execution of it's themes that happens to be more in line with what people want.

I get what you are saying, but this "everyone is against DC because of reasons!" argument needs to stop. Of course the media is biased, because right now what sells is that DCEU is doomed, but regular people don't give a fuck about that. There's no conspiracy against DC movies. And I say this as someone who loves MoS and BvS.
Click to expand...
Claps for days

------------
Martha and Johnathan aren't bad parents. They're really good parents actually. They were fearful about what the world would do and say if they learned about Clark's abilities. Which makes hella sense. Johnathan died to protect his son, what he did was right in his mind. Martha told Clark the truth, he doesn't have to do shit, he does it because he feels it's the right thing to do.
 
V

Vyer

Member
Ashhong said:
It's honestly both. I can guarantee you that even if he was able to properly expand on the concept, there will still be many people who hate it because of his "different" take on the heroes. Without a doubt man.
Click to expand...

oh sure, there will always be people who are adverse to changes unfortunately. I'm just saying that the combination turns even more people off.

Ninjimbo said:
What is this supposed to mean anyway? What is this 'ability' to take them beyond the introduction stage? Who are the directors who can?
Click to expand...

Many of the aspects of his 'more complex/flawed' Superman - how the world would react to him, killing zod, being the opposite image of Batman leading to their conflict - are from comics, which is great. But those concepts are used as part of the character's development in various storylines, and that's lacking in the movies. Or the execution of it is just botched. They go almost nowhere. The superman/clark that is unsure, self doubting and anguished over his role in much of MoS is the same one that lands on that rooftop to fight Batman in BvS.

for example, take the death of zod. I didn't hate that like others did because I recognized the concept from the comics, which is pretty clearly what Snyder was taking it from. But while the comics used that to show how it develops the character of Superman when he deals with the repercussions, we get so very little to go on in MoS after that. When Clark is doing his Super Anguish Scream, I felt this is what Snyder was going for (and for a while I felt justified by that when I heard the end of MoS was going to be the catalyst for BvS), but it's not hard to see why that can fizzle out for general audiences. And then fast forward to BvS, and before he goes to Gotham Supes basically tells Lois "I guess I might have to kill him! No one stays good forever amirite?" It's like...what? it's kind of hard to see the point of the zod stuff then, unless you then believe it's just to show that this Superman will kill but will feel kind of bad about it. which is just...uh, ok? You can't really take 'it's stuff from the comics!' as a defense for this version of Superman if the story then goes on to completely miss the point of the very thing they took from the comics.

(that also leads to what imo is BvS' biggest flaw, but that's a different story)

or take the much maligned 'Martha' stuff. Like, I love the idea of it; that Batman doesn't see Superman has human and has to make the connection that there is humanity there in the form of his parents can create something Bruce recognizes. But good god is the execution awkward. The delivery and pacing are terrible. We spend 2+ hours with a driven enraged Batman and within 30 seconds he goes to Superfriends BFF. When you do that to your story you're devaluing everything that you've spent the majority of your time building. And if you don't value it, why should the people watching it?

Again, love the concept but when it comes time to pay them off or do something more it falls flat. And yeah, this isn't an impossible task that other directors could handle. It is a staple of storytelling in the medium.
 
BadAss2961

BadAss2961

Member
okdakor said:
His choice to be Superman should have come from his father's encouragement to use his powers positively, instead of hiding... Pa Kent didn't have to die this day, with a tornado around, Clark could have saved him in a blink without nobody noticing.
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Doubtful. There's no indication that he was capable of that at the time.
 
R

Raptor

Member
evil solrac v3.0 said:
speak for yourself, plenty of us have the fortitude to defend what we like.
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"like myself" is self evident that Im talking about myself I mean.

Maybe other fandoms doesn't care about the quality of a movie or movies in order to defend it but not me, if I think a movie is garbage, is not worth defending at all even if its DC and Im a fan of it.
 
A

Ashhong

Member
okdakor said:
Because they created a character that a lot of people can't still see as Superman after 2 movies. I know, Snyder plays the long game, and the third time we'll all see that he is Superman now, that the 2 first movies were about him becoming the hero/symbol that the general audience is waiting for...

His choice to be Superman should have come from his father's encouragement to use his powers positively, instead of hiding... Pa Kent didn't have to die this day, with a tornado around, Clark could have saved him in a blink without nobody noticing.

Then his mother tries again to protect him with "you don't owe them a thing"... That what the prefect moment to have Clark answering something like "Mom, I'm going to help them because it's the right thing to do". Clark becomes Superman and his mom let go the kid who needed to hide.

"Always remember us"
Z0fOREP.png
Click to expand...

None of that makes them shitty parents. In fact they seemed to be right to me. This just goes back again to the "not my superman" shit.
 
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