Digital Foundry vs DriveClub
- Thread starter mocoworm
- Start date
except Daytona USA is on Tracks...like Daytona but yeah good point!
So FH2 is a racing sim now then, this argument was not present last year with Forza 5 and I am sure wont be highlighted in Pcars
Windom Earle
Member
It won't because open world sim racers are not a thing... Actually this could be good.
derExperte
Member
I hope because DC's visuals have some weird issues, wouldn't call them polished right now.
Good point, I could even see them being too conservative and upping the IQ a little after implementing the weather if it runs good.
For sure, HP '10 is one of my favorite NfS' overall. Only serious issue were the looooong debriefings and unlock-videos after every race. Something DC does very good btw, everything is snappy and skippable.
One if the reasons I love HP so much was that it did a great job of giving you the choice of going open world or selecting P2P races from a menu.
That and the fact those routes were fantastically put together, it looked great and Autolog brought in the competitive timing thing against mates.
What a great game it is.
It's not breaking any new ground, but it IS reviving a type of racer that is all but dead in the industry. And it's not like that type of racer died because it was shit or something. These were amongst the best type of racers that ever came out, the pure skill-based no-frill arcade/simcade racers. The question I have is if it's actually good at accomplishing the goals within this barely alive subcategory of racers. For my money, it absolutely does. But, crucially, you don't have to think it does, because it's a legitimate opinion to think it's not that great. It's perfectly appropriate to believe it failed at its goals, which are strictly defined and therefore easy to criticize if there are legitimate issues.
What is not OK is to bring in all sorts of random bullshit, talking about how racers should be, because as a reviewer you're incapable of remembering games that released longer than a month ago, because you have expectations you're inappropriately foisting on a game that has completely different goals, or because you have some daft ideas about open world or upgrades somehow being equivalent of "next gen" or "quality."
Each approach has strengths and weaknesses, and each approach can be done well or poorly. DID DriveClub handle its specific approach to racing poorly? If so, how? When you come from that perspective, criticism can begin to be on the right foot. It does me absolutely no good to read about how much you wish it was open world, because if I wanted a fucking open world racer, I'd play a fucking open world racer. I love Forza Horizon 2, it just came out. Play that shit. This is a different type of racer with different goals. Does it accomplish them well? That is what I want to read.
I am king of negativity. I love hearing people criticize shit, because it means they're wielding a highly effective tool as a consumer. But this shit we've had in like a zillion reviews/previews/articles at this point? It has got to stop. It's embarrassing.
Haha, thats honest. Any chance that it's still readable somewhere online?
I'm curious to know what it is you believe an open world design brings to racing games? For my tastes it just means obfuscating the actual racing behind the need to drive back and forth across the same world to trigger events. Once triggered, then, the actual races themselves (ie - track design) are usually hamstrung by the world design. It all just blurs together for me and I end up having a difficult time really getting anything out of it.
That's not to say DriveClub is a great circuit racer but I really prefer well designed tracks strung together with a good menu system to anything open world. I've yet to play an open world game with truly exceptional track design.
IAmRandom31
Banned
Motorstorm isn't open world either
AlphaTwo00
Member
GRID Autosport? Mario Kart(although that shoots wildly away?), yeah, then the Ridge Racer games
Daytona USA's setting is pretty much just visual flair tbh. You could swap the car model out for a hovership ship, and with it's current driving model nobody would bat an eyelid.
And FH2 is most definitely not a sim either. I have no idea who would ever consider it one. Forza 5 and Project Cars are very unlikely to face this comparison though, because both games actually are attempting to recreate a real-world racing experience, as so will be automatically assumed to be circuit-bound. It'd be like complaining a UFC game has no projectile attacks, the comparison simply doesn't work until the game design has removed itself far enough away from the real-world equivalent.
Snap. I have no issues with Paradise City and the like, but having an arcade racer solely focused on learning courses & routes feels right.
There will be nightclub & glamour model sub games.
Windom Earle
Member
I think it has high highs and low lows, a bit similar to GT5 in that regard (Minus shitty standard cars). Wonder why the textures are not better though, what did they do with all that GDDR5?
NFS Rivals and FM5? But FM5 has some sim ambitions so it might be not arcadey enough to count while NFS:R doesn't really have closed racing circuits in a traditional sense.
Larogue
Member
Closed tracks feels so old school right now.
I would love more open world, as I feel it should be standard on all racing games after playing Forza Horizon 2. This feels like downgrade, like going from console to tablet gaming (where games generally are more limited and have smaller scale).
I would love more open world, as I feel it should be standard on all racing games after playing Forza Horizon 2. This feels like downgrade, like going from console to tablet gaming (where games generally are more limited and have smaller scale).
I'm a little surprised at DF talking about multiple AA methods (temporal, post process, material based) and yet still having some jaggies on the cars. You'd have thought that if Evo were using multiple methods, they'd focus on nailing the car IQ at least. Maybe there are just some circumstances that are too difficult to fully remove jaggies from?
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
I think it's less of a problem that it's not open world and more of this. Reviewers need to take in to account it doesn't really matter what kind of game they want to play. They need to review the game that they have, and take the positives and negatives of the game. Not add on hypothetical aspects of a game just because you want to play a different game.
There were complaints about how Forza Horizon 2 was open world, and should be more like Forza Motorsport track wise. It's a universal problem with reviewing.
But, you can do open world racing in tons of other games, can we please have our closed circuit racer?
They mention pop-ins which were clearly visible in videos posted but the game is a rock solid 30 fps which is amazing given the detail in this game. Still they spotted some "tricks" by devs to free up GPU time but overall a truly next-gen racing game not possible and I think the choice of realistic color palette with the appropriate shaders look extremely good.
Well, I definitely don't disagree with what you've posted. I haven't played Driveclub yet so I don't really have an opinion on it yet, but Daytona USA and Wipeout are my two favourite racing series ever, so open-world is hardly a requirement for me.
I just thought the idea that Driveclub is a big step forward in terms of design and experience was a bit weird, as I'm really not seeing anything it does that (outside of graphics) that I can't easily attribute to other (even very recent) racers.
I think the graphics are generally great but you do get a lot of aliasing in certain circumstances, dashcam on the Evora shows awful aliasing across the front of the vehicle and this is also shown in the windscreen reflections. However the rest of the presentation seems really good to me and hopefully they can improve this edge aliasing with some slight tweaks to their engine.
I expect that as this is meant to be a game the evolves over time any engine improvements that get made will be patched in.
The other question to ask is how much GPU compute is this engine using, with the amount of simulation going on I would expect that there is quite a lot of GPU compute and for a first attempt it seems pretty solid and could be used as a basis for a lot of games to come.
I expect that as this is meant to be a game the evolves over time any engine improvements that get made will be patched in.
The other question to ask is how much GPU compute is this engine using, with the amount of simulation going on I would expect that there is quite a lot of GPU compute and for a first attempt it seems pretty solid and could be used as a basis for a lot of games to come.
Cops pursuing you after finishing races did it for me. Great looking game, good arcade physics model, fun races.
Seriously. Like, there's room for more than one type of racer! And they can both be great!
Oh yeah, I was just saying that you're right. It really doesn't break any new ground. It just goes over old ground really, really well, in my estimation. I hope you enjoy it if you ever do try it. But if you don't, that's cool... I'm sure your reasons will make more sense than the bulk of the reviewers who have covered this game so far.
As an aside, I'm not even sure why breaking new ground is a requirement for games as long as they're good, but I guess I'm just weird like that too.
nkarafo
Member
No, the difference isn't only speed.
Open world games with a human avatar let you do all sorts of activities that an open wold game can allow. You are not just walking or running. You can do fighting, driving, flying, hiking, killing, stealing and whatever you can think of. You are also not restricted to roads. You can go and explore that mountain, these woods, you can go in that alley and see what's behind the backyard of that house, etc. And you can enter some houses/buildings if not all. The bigger/more open ended the world is, the more stuff you can do. Also, the better designed that world is, the more fun you get out all these activities. Hey, you can also just stand still and gaze at the details.
With a car avatar you just drive. You are not supposed to stay still, you either drive against the clock or opponents. You can't climb mountains and you can't explore the woods. You are restricted on the road, despite having a huge world designed for you. Basically, you can do all these things on a linear/standard racing game. That's why its not worth the extra weight of a big open world.
I guess it's just a personal thing. I don't really think normal semi-realistic racing is very exciting, not to mention we've had plenty of those games on previous generations already. That's why I've always said I'd rather have a new Motorstorm game. Over the top racing on the rim of an active volcano in a buggy while clashing with trucks and motorcycles is way more fun to me. An open world to explore and dick around in would make Driveclub more my kind of game. I get that it's not ideal if you actually really care about, you know, (semi-)realistic racing.
Maybe the next one is!
Red Chocobo
Banned
Is this real life? Suddenly everyone hates track racers? What's going on?
Open-world racers are fun and all (Burnout Paradise, TDU, and so on), but I still prefer racing on a proper closed track.
Driving a million-dollar supercar through fences and doing 100-foot jumps is always fun. But some of us also like the technical aspects of track racing, and the skill needed to perfect it.
I'm sooooo confused by those jaggies, I mean it seemed the sacrificed alot for that visual depth which is great but not amazing. And in by no means questioning the ability of evo but more some of their design choices in terms of what they decided to allocate resources to. Like they have eyes and I know as developer there is a fine line between itching to always do more vs putting out a product but I dunno man that AA is quite poor places. I can only assume that dynamic lightning cost a lot more than I thought .
It's still a really good game graphically and I hope these niggles don't overlook the things they HAVE done well.
It's still a really good game graphically and I hope these niggles don't overlook the things they HAVE done well.
Windom Earle
Member
I agree with the notion that GTA5 is the best open world racer.
Forza Horizon 2 does pretty well in this regard. You can fast travel if you don't want to drive back and forth, and the courses for each race are nicely carved out of the towns/roads/fields. They actually have some 'character' which is good to see.
But I agree with your general sentiment - it isn't automatically better because it is open world.
Because that has exciting colors and weapons and shit.
Actually, I should write the critics, they could probably stand to subtract a few more points because DriveClub lacks weapons too.
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Not everybody will agree, though.
I've read a fair bit of what you've said on the matter. Just because you go to lengths to explain yourself doesn't make your 'analysis' any less reactionary or overly defensive.
As far as my ability to analyse anything at length, well, lets just say that I'm perfectly capable of it, I just reserve it for more worthwhile endeavors than complaining about other people having different expectations or preferences than I do.
Summer Haze
Banned
He said it matter-of-factly. Poor wording on my part, my bad.
Ploid 3.0
Member
Plane rides, play street fighter 2 on handheld while you wait to arrive at your destination.
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
Duplicate post, since merged.
Windom Earle
Member
Stolen from the OT:
Seriously. Like, there's room for more than one type of racer! And they can both be great!
Oh yeah, I was just saying that you're right. It really doesn't break any new ground. It just goes over old ground really, really well, in my estimation. I hope you enjoy it if you ever do try it. But if you don't, that's cool... I'm sure your reasons will make more sense than the bulk of the reviewers who have covered this game so far.
As an aside, I'm not even sure why breaking new ground is a requirement for games as long as they're good, but I guess I'm just weird like that too.
I bought a PS4 last year almost exclusively with the intent of playing Driveclub on it. You're goddamn right I'm going to at least "try" it, lol.
And I agree about not needing to break new ground. If anything I spend most of my time lamenting the death of arcades and old Sega racers. I'd kill for a next-gen Daytona USA or Ridge Racer (5 not Type-4 lol) equivalent.
These are separate game design elements. The things you can do as a human character are still dependent on an individual game's design. Compare your interactive options in something like Infamous or Crackdown, with those in something like Shenmue. Completely different. And even in terms of racers, you can incorporate a lot of that, by simply taking the player out of the car if required, like TDU often does. You just change the focus, instead of the car being a secondary avatar, it's the primary one.
Also, TDU and FH2 will let you explore those mountains and woods. The difference between FH1 and NFS being "open-road" and FH2 and TDU being "open-world" is quite large, and does justify the design choices imo.
This right here. That level of dynamic lighting and weather simulation is what makes this stand out for me. At times this game can produce scenes that are above and beyond pre-baked and carefully crafted static setups.