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Do you think that it would be too risky for triple-A gaming to experiment with fictional settings beyond the predictable sci-fi or fantasy tropes?

Drizzlehell

Banned
When you look at video games that were released in the triple-A space in the past decade or so, and specifically pay attention to the ones that are set in some sort of a fictional world, typically there are only two types of genres prevalent in that space: generic fantasy or generic sci-fi.

In fantasy you have: sword and sorcery, vaguely medieval or at least non-futuristic or non-contemporary settings, folklore or literature-inspired fantasy creatures and lore, etc.

In sci-fi it's typically either a contemporary, futuristic, or post-apocalyptic setting with high tech gadgetry and weapons, alien or mutated creatures, space or time travel, and so on... I would even count stuff like steampunk and dieselpunk into this category because they both essentially use the same, common sci-fi tropes with the only exception being that their technology is powered by known elements and there's like a distinct, anachronistic visual style associated with them.

Arguably the only successful triple-A game released in recent years that throws genre conventions out the window in favour of something surreal and out-of-the-box is this:
11079189-death-stranding-directors-cut-playstation-5-front-cover.jpg


But other than that, what else is there?

Honestly, I see this as a question that extends way beyond contemporary gaming because as far back as I can remember, the most prevalent genres in games have always been either sci-fi or fantasy of the generic kind, with very little in terms of creativity and innovation. Even though other media such as movies, comic, and books have revelled in the weird and the uncanny for as long as those things existed. Every time I watch one of the annual games fests, and 90% of the games that are being presented are the most generic, blandest-looking thing possible, my eyes just roll to the back of my skull.

Do you think that it is just too risky to try and sell people on something that's not safe or predictable, or do game developers just lack the motivation and creativity to come up with something else?
 

Wildebeest

Member
The most popular genres are sports, motorsports and military. Bog-standard fantasy and science fiction games are a wild ride compared to that.
 

StereoVsn

Gold Member
If a company is going to plow $100-400 million into a game, there has to be some assurance of return.

Going with an esoteric setting is substantially increasing the risk.

Basically this would normally be a realm of AA productions where a publisher would try a few different things in hope of striking gold so to speak. But even that seems to be a a hard ask now days.
 

Drizzlehell

Banned
Death Stranding:
- post-apocalyptic setting - checked
- high tech gadgetry and weapons - checked
- alien or mutated creatures - checked

Seriously?
Oh, so you're just gonna pretend like levitating ghosts, unexplained tar monsters, time-warping magic rain, psychic stillborn babies that live in jars, abstract afterlife dimension, and nuclear-yield corpse bombs are something that do not exist in this world? And somehow the entire continent of America looks like Icelandic mountains and every person who lives there has some sort of a weird supernatural condition?
 
I mean, there’s plenty of AAA games that have a ‘fictionalized’ take on the real world like RDR2, GTA, all of Assassin’s Creed.

But yeah, fictional worlds generally trend toward fantasy or scifi. This isn’t exclusive to games either.
 

kuncol02

Banned
While I agree that DS is very much a speculative fiction setting, OP is talking about form, not function.
And how are goo monsters in Death Stranding different in form from any other goo monster in media?
I don't know maybe I read to much sci fi books in past, because nothing in modern sci-fi feels unique for me.
 

Drizzlehell

Banned
And how are goo monsters in Death Stranding different in form from any other goo monster in media?
I don't know maybe I read to much sci fi books in past, because nothing in modern sci-fi feels unique for me.
I already explained - they are inherently supernatural in nature. There isn't any technobabble explanation behind any of the weird shit that happens in the game, it's just there and it's very abstract and open to interpretation. That's not sci-fi.
 

The Fuzz damn you!

Gold Member
And how are goo monsters in Death Stranding different in form from any other goo monster in media?
I don't know maybe I read to much sci fi books in past, because nothing in modern sci-fi feels unique for me.
Oh, I see what you’re saying. Yes, carry on as you were.
 
I already explained - they are inherently supernatural in nature. There isn't any technobabble explanation behind any of the weird shit that happens in the game, it's just there and it's very abstract and open to interpretation. That's not sci-fi.

How is that not sci-fi. What the hell are you talking about lol.
 

kuncol02

Banned
I already explained - they are inherently supernatural in nature
And how that differ from any other supernatural enemy in sci-fi? Even Star Wars, father of all modern sci-fi have space magic and ghosts. And no, midichlorians don't explain existence of force.
Even Stalker world was caused by supernatural event.

Just cite any other setting that does the same ?
Just cite any other setting that does the same as Prey, Bioshock Infinite, Stalker, Fallout or literally any other IP that wasn't made as lame copy of other IP (Star Wars -> Mass Effect)? Death Stranding is not really unique in being some white unicorn of gaming. There are tons of other unique settings that for some reason you and many people in this thread ignore.
 

Ozzie666

Member
Is this why we don't have any new Onimusha games?
I'm still waiting for a big budget Batman 66 game.

Assassin's Creed seems to chase many different historical periods, but I think the American civil war ones were the worst receieved? While Black Flag and The Crusades era were great. So you might be on to something. Besides SCI-FI, Distopian futures or Medieval, whats really left to explore that people will flock too?
 

Drizzlehell

Banned
Weird fiction is literally just a blend of fantasy, horror and sci-fi? You’re really trying to split semantic hairs to get out of classifying Death Stranding as sci-fi. Which it absolutely is.
Why are you so angry about this anyway?

There are clearly supernatural elements to the story and world building in Death Stranding. Hardly scientific, even though there are some sci-fi elements to it. Which is the very definition of a genre-bending story. "Weird fiction" is just a neat label that you can put on it when it's not easily definable.
 

Humdinger

Gold Member
When you look at video games that were released in the triple-A space in the past decade or so, and specifically pay attention to the ones that are set in some sort of a fictional world, typically there are only two types of genres prevalent in that space: generic fantasy or generic sci-fi.

In fantasy you have: sword and sorcery, vaguely medieval or at least non-futuristic or non-contemporary settings, folklore or literature-inspired fantasy creatures and lore, etc.

In sci-fi it's typically either a contemporary, futuristic, or post-apocalyptic setting with high tech gadgetry and weapons, alien or mutated creatures, space or time travel, and so on... I would even count stuff like steampunk and dieselpunk into this category because they both essentially use the same, common sci-fi tropes with the only exception being that their technology is powered by known elements and there's like a distinct, anachronistic visual style associated with them.

....as far back as I can remember, the most prevalent genres in games have always been either sci-fi or fantasy of the generic kind, with very little in terms of creativity and innovation. Even though other media such as movies, comic, and books have revelled in the weird and the uncanny for as long as those things existed. Every time I watch one of the annual games fests, and 90% of the games that are being presented are the most generic, blandest-looking thing possible, my eyes just roll to the back of my skull.

Do you think that it is just too risky to try and sell people on something that's not safe or predictable, or do game developers just lack the motivation and creativity to come up with something else?

Just a point of clarification. I may be misunderstanding. Are you specifically commenting on only the setting of the game? When you complain that everything is generic, are you saying that the settings are all generic? Or are you talking about more than just setting -- for example, the plot, the characters, the themes, etc.? Because, if it is the setting that is generic, that wouldn't mean the game itself is, or that the game lacked creativity. You could have a generic setting (e.g., "space travel" is one of your examples), but lots of innovation and creativity within that general set-up.

I'm not saying there is a lot of creativity or innovation going on. I'm just making a distinction between standard settings (e.g., space travel, aliens, etc.) and the rest of the game. The former could be very familiar, but there is plenty of room for innovation/creativity under that broad umbrella (after all, "space travel and aliens" is a pretty broad category, with a lot of room to move).


How is that not sci-fi. What the hell are you talking about lol.

I haven't played Death Stranding (too many cinematics for me), but from his description -- which focuses on the "supernatural" -- sounds more like it belongs in the horror or fantasy genre, rather than in standard science fiction. I suppose you could make a case for SF, though. Maybe some of all three.
 

FStubbs

Member
That was the one huge thing Assassin's Creed did right in the beginning. Explore different settings not covered much in games.
 

Wildebeest

Member
Death Stranding is a sort of Supernatural/Mystery setting with Science Fiction as a fig leaf, like Lost. I'd compare it to something like Alan Wake more than Prey. The technology in Death Stranding is all "but what if ghosts and souls were more real than physics" sort of guff.
 

RoboFu

One of the green rats
Everything has already been done. The word trope is just another way to naysay anything and “sound smart”
 

Stuart360

Member
I think space is popular because devs can basicaly do what they want as no one really knows whats out there.
 

Three

Member
What exactly did you have in mind? It seems you kind of just covered all bases when describing fictional worlds, past, future, and present but different.
 
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Humdinger

Gold Member
But to answer your question, Drizzle, imo the main factor is budget and the associated risks. As budgets balloon, the risks associated with failure multiply. So, devs/pubs naturally become more conservative. They can't stray too far from the mainstream, because they'll lose too many sales. Of course, something truly original can sometimes be successful, but megacorp CEOs are not known for their originality. That's not generally how you get to those positions.
 

Drizzlehell

Banned
And how that differ from any other supernatural enemy in sci-fi?
The fact that they, and many other elements of the lore, are connected to some sort of an afterlife mumbo-jumbo that's very much within the realm of abstract rather than practical, hard science. A lot of it is not even supposed to be taken literally, as it feels like it's more in service of the game's themes. Even the very object of the game to "save America", as if the entire rest of the world doesn't even exist, is a very abstract, almost metaphorical concept in itself.
 

Robb

Gold Member
I have a hard time imagining what you mean. But Splatoon maybe? It goes for the post-apocalyptic setting but has some very strange lore, unique characters, non-futuristic weapons/gadgets (yet still very distinct) etc. etc. that make it stand out.
 

brian0057

Banned
These days there's no distinction between "Fantasy" and "Sci-Fi". And I think that's the problem. Fantasy is just Sci-Fi with magic instead of techonlogy and viceversa.
One has stone buildings instead of steel. One has... magic BS that's basically just guns in the other. Both settings have the demographic of modern day L.A, which makes sense for Sci-Fi but no Fantasy, which is supposed to be inspired by medieval history in some way.

Sci-Fi is just our modern day world but with lasers and space travel. Fantasy wants to have all the trappings of the medieval world but without all the "icky" stuff, thus turning it into one of those generic renaissance fairs.

The epoch when Fantasy and Sci-Fi were completely different is long gone.
 
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Gaelyon

Member
And how that differ from any other supernatural enemy in sci-fi? Even Star Wars, father of all modern sci-fi have space magic and ghosts. And no, midichlorians don't explain existence of force.
Even Stalker world was caused by supernatural event.


Just cite any other setting that does the same as Prey, Bioshock Infinite, Stalker, Fallout or literally any other IP that wasn't made as lame copy of other IP (Star Wars -> Mass Effect)? Death Stranding is not really unique in being some white unicorn of gaming. There are tons of other unique settings that for some reason you and many people in this thread ignore.
I didn't say there's no other unique settings. Death Stranding is unique, there's no other setting similar. Did you play it ? The lore, the story, the characters are all originals. It puzzled me that people could just not recognize that and just brush it off with "it's post apocalyptic so not original" ? You don't have to like it, but there's nothing similar at least in video games.
 

NahaNago

Member
It would be too risky. I can see more experimental sci-fi and fantasy being explored in the AA space or indies. Isn't that how it is with movies as well until A24 popped up?
 

Drizzlehell

Banned
Just a point of clarification. I may be misunderstanding. Are you specifically commenting on only the setting of the game? When you complain that everything is generic, are you saying that the settings are all generic? Or are you talking about more than just setting -- for example, the plot, the characters, the themes, etc.? Because, if it is the setting that is generic, that wouldn't mean the game itself is, or that the game lacked creativity. You could have a generic setting (e.g., "space travel" is one of your examples), but lots of innovation and creativity within that general set-up.

I'm not saying there is a lot of creativity or innovation going on. I'm just making a distinction between standard settings (e.g., space travel, aliens, etc.) and the rest of the game. The former could be very familiar, but there is plenty of room for innovation/creativity under that broad umbrella (after all, "space travel and aliens" is a pretty broad category, with a lot of room to move).

I haven't played Death Stranding (too many cinematics for me), but from his description -- which focuses on the "supernatural" -- sounds more like it belongs in the horror or fantasy genre, rather than in standard science fiction. I suppose you could make a case for SF, though. Maybe some of all three.
I mean, typically when you're dealing with either fantasy or sci-fi, it all usually revolves around the same concepts. To clarify, I may not necessarily think that the setting itself is generic, because there may be some unique visual flare to it that's unique to that specific game (i.e. the various "-punk" subgenres like steam, diesel, or even to be more topical - NASApunk in Starfield). But even with those unique touches, at the end of the day, we're still dealing with a story about people warping across the galaxy in their starships and fighting alien monsters on planet Zog.

What I would like to see more is something that breaks out of that mold somehow, and tries to tell a different kind of story about something that's not so easily definable. Idk, maybe it's more about the fact that typical fantasy and sci-fi tropes have been so overused at this point that they just feel ordinary instead of sparking the imagination. Death Stranding is a pretty decent example because it's such an unusual setting and it forces you to think outside of the box. Kinda like that movie Stalker, which features a seemingly sci-fi concept but the movie itself is so weird and philosophical that you kinda have to stop thinking about the Room as a scientific anomaly and more like an abstract, metaphorical concept that's beyond human comprehension.
 

kyussman

Member
Given the technology we have to create games these days devs are only limited by their imaginations.....such a shame the people with the money won't let them use them more.Sony gave Kojima free rein with Death Stranding and that was certainly the most compelling game I'd played in a long time....but that was Kojima I guess.
 

Fbh

Member
Pretty much, as we've seen multiple times, most people tend to gravitate towards things which are familiar to them. If it's not an IP they know then at least setting that's similar to what they know and like. Which is why with setting like fantasy we seem to always go back to swords, knights and dragons despite how much you could really do with the genre.

I do agree Death Stranding is one of the most unique games of recent years. It's one of those games that I didn't love and probably wouldn't put in my top 20 of last gen games, but I still think back to it often and I do think it has a lot to do with the unique setting and world (though to an extent I think it suffers a bit from being weird just for the sake of it).

I also think Horizon has a pretty great setting. Yes some of the tropes are present, it's technically post apocalyptic and the backstory in particular has some generic tropes (man creating new tech they can't control).
But the mechanized animals and dinosaurs and this contrasting setting of high tech enemies with tribal themes and societies is pretty unique, at least as far as games go.
 
In a perfect world the devs would be able to give any big idea they had a go. As it is, anything that isn't a sequel is on shaky ground at most of the third-parties.

Personally, I've never bought into the medieval time period much. I'd love to see more things that were fantasy based that weren't that for sure. I also think more familiar games set in different time periods could be fun, say a cop game set in the 16,17,18 hundreds or something. Time periods that are quite different from today but also times where society itself isn't as different as going back further than that.
 

ReBurn

Gold Member
It feels to me like video games pretty well represent the most popular tropes from fiction as it is. What's missing? You have sci-fi, fantasy, crime, horror, war, dystopia, etc in AAA right now. Which fictional tropes would make for popular mass market games that aren't currently being exploited?

AAA probably isn't going to take a risk on new fictional genres or niche subgenres because the cost of production means the games have to appeal to the largest number of people to be successful. AAA publishers aren't doing it for the art, they're doing it for the money.
 

Drizzlehell

Banned
I also think Horizon has a pretty great setting. Yes some of the tropes are present, it's technically post apocalyptic and the backstory in particular has some generic tropes (man creating new tech they can't control).
But the mechanized animals and dinosaurs and this contrasting setting of high tech enemies with tribal themes and societies is pretty unique, at least as far as games go.
Yeah, to be fair, Horizon actually had one of the more unique backstories as far as post-apocalyptic visions of the future go. Typically in a story about machines and technology taking over, you're used to seeing a world that's completely desolate and ravaged either by nuclear holocaust or some other calamity, a'la The Matrix or The Terminator, so it was pretty refreshing to see a world that's already past that hurdle and actually started to rebuild itself, and the cool lore about how it all went down was the icing on the cake.

That's why I didn't particularly like these revelations towards the end of the game because I can already imagine how it's all gonna turn into complete generic sci-fi nonsense in the third game, lol.
 
Death Stranding:
- post-apocalyptic setting - checked
- high tech gadgetry and weapons - checked
- alien or mutated creatures - checked

Seriously?

Kinda what I was thinking. Death Stranding is sci-fi. Unique sci-fi, but still sci-fi.

Thought the OP was gonna bring up something like the AAA game equivalent of Eyes Wide Shut or American Pie. I'd like to see something like that, AAA or upper-AA.
 

Montauk

Member
I don’t really understand the question when both fantasy and sci-fi can cover a basically endless variety of scenarios.
 

ByWatterson

Member
Games do this all the time. Ratchet & Clank, Psychonauts, Crash Bandicoot, Inside, It Takes Two, and many, many more find success doing fictional settings that have nothing to do with regular fantasy or sci-fi.

I mean, the majority of Final Fantasy games are some version of steampunkn(FFVI or FFVII) modern day medieval (FFXV, FFVII), or....FFX's.....island punk? Don't even know.

Anyway, I don't understand this thread.
 
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Have to disagree with "90% of the games that are being presented are the most generic, blandest-looking thing possible" unless you're narrowing it down to games that shoot for that almost but not quite realistic look. I'd add NMS and Returnal for doing a great job of having a unique style.
 
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