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[spindoctor]

I do have to wonder if Valve will allow this to stay on steam with this controversy. I see how the argument can be made that the game is "complete" and EA doesn't guarantee a final game, but it's also obvious DF is just dropping support for Space Base.

Valve lets pure garbage like Air Control stay on Steam. Spacebase will not have any problems.

Regarding this issue, I personally feel that predicating the completion of the game based on revenues earned from early access buyers is quite shady. Double Fine is not a struggling dev studio that absolutely needs financial aid to even be able to finish their projects. And the abrupt jump to a release version that is missing lots of features is just not cool. It's tantamount to abuse of the Early Access system.

I personally won't be buying any more incomplete games from them. In fact, I'm mostly turned off from Kickstarter and Early Access as a whole these days. I won't deny that there is good that comes from both models, but I'm going to leave the risk on other people now.

 

[LurkerPrime]

I do have to wonder if Valve will allow this to stay on steam with this controversy. I see how the argument can be made that the game is "complete" and EA doesn't guarantee a final game, but it's also obvious DF is just dropping support for Space Base.

Valve has a lot of trouble removing even 100% scam games, so I can't imagine they'll be quick to care about Spacebase DF-9's lamentable development.

For instance, it took Valve a while to react to the WarZ scandal, and even then it managed to slide back into Steam by using a different name. I'd also like to remind people that this was during the height of DayZ's popularity before it went standalone. Early during WarZ's release, searching DayZ on the store yielded WarZ as one of the few (if only) results, and after a time this stopped happening (so someone took note of it).

 

[JaseC]

I do have to wonder if Valve will allow this to stay on steam with this controversy. I see how the argument can be made that the game is "complete" and EA doesn't guarantee a final game, but it's also obvious DF is just dropping support for Space Base.

Valve isn't going to remove the game; for instance, Dark Matter is still available and it was "updated" to include a single-screen ending as the devs closed up shop and couldn't complete what they'd set out to do. I do think Valve will eventually place some stricter rules on Early Access and implement some sort of refund policy for such games, though: due to the developer behind it, Spacebase not being seen through to the end is a much bigger deal than, say, The Stomping Land or Earth: Year 2066

Spoiler

(which I paid ~$65 for; no regrets!)

and it's undoubtedly going to throw some fuel on top of an already sizeable fire.

Valve has a lot of trouble removing even 100% scam games, so I can't imagine they'll be quick to care about Spacebase DF-9's lamentable development.

For instance, it took Valve a while to react to the WarZ scandal, and even then it managed to slide back into Steam by using a different name.

It didn't return to Steam on the sly. The issue Valve had was simply false advertising: the game was removed for a time to allow the devs to fix up the store page and those who'd earlier bought it were entitled to refunds. The name change was just a futile attempt by the devs to disassociate the game from the scandal, not something done because The War Z was blacklisted at Valve's end (the game's app id is the same so that wouldn't even have worked, anyway).

 

[exmachina64]

Edit: nvm

 

[LumpOfCole]

Wow, this is really gross. Were the Early Access purchasers told that the game wouldn't be completed if not enough other Early Access purchasers bought into the game?

This whole debacle does the Early Access method a disservice, especially for developers utilizing it responsibly.

 

[Teeth]

Regarding this issue, I personally feel that predicating the completion of the game based on revenues earned from early access buyers is quite shady. Double Fine is not a struggling dev studio that absolutely needs financial aid to even be able to finish their projects. And the abrupt jump to a release version that is missing lots of features is just not cool. It's tantamount to abuse of the Early Access system.

They are probably closer to this than you think.

 

[Aaron]

I think this project was lacking either the manpower or direction to do it justice. While I like it personally, it's a novelty / toy. It's not a game. While in the same time Spacebase entered early access until now, not fundamentally changing in any way, Massive Chalice started as literally scribbles on a white board to something that's really only spit and polish away from being complete.

 

[exmachina64]

The Steam forums are a mess right now. Turns out Schafer himself went into the forums to answer questions:

I want to respond directly to your statements, "...you all didn't want to allocate the resources and time to aid in the development..." and "...why didn't you help them more to stem this? Were no other developers willing/interested..."

Those statements make clear a large part of the disconnect I see between expectations and what goes on inside of a small developer. Every employee has to be funded by something: A publisher deal, a kickstarter, an outside investor, or the sales of our games. The last item is not a huge amount, and sometimes not there at all, so really the answer is the first three.

All of the resources you're asking me to throw at Spacebase are currently funded by one of those first three things. How would Midnight City feel we took a programmer they paid for to work on Costume Quest 2, and sent them to work on Spacebase? Would it be right to take someone paid for by the Massive Chalice backers and put them on Spacebase? Or one of the programmers Indie Fund paid for to work on Hack N Slash?

People on Spacebase have to be funded by Spacebase. Or any money that we have sitting in the bank, which in our case is not much. Still we have put a lot of that kind of money into the game as well.

And the biggest difference between Prison Architect and Spacebase? A lot more people bought Prison Architect. If you really want to compare Spacebase to another early access game, you need to find a similar story of a game that did not sell as well as was expected. How did they handle the lack of funds? We've tried to handle this difficult situation as well as possible.

Thanks for your questions!
-Tim

[update]
Correction to the above-- Spacebase was funded by Spacebase revenue AND its initial investment by Indie Fund. So the game did have a chunk of development paid for, but then how far it went beyond that depended on how well the game performed. Also, my example of borrowing someone from Hack N Slash is a little funny considering they were both funded by Indie Fund. But it's still true--we assume they would not like us shifting people around like that without consulting them first.

 

[Trouble]

thisisbullshit.gif

I picked it up on the cheap during a Steam sale, IIRC. I would be really pissed if I had paid full price.

 

[saunderez]

They are probably closer to this than you think.

Yeah I don't expect them to be around for much longer if things are as dire as Tim are making out. Nothing they're developing is going to be a breakout hit.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Hopefully, its not already posted. Project Zomboid Developer's take on the whole situation. Understandably, he is a lot less forgiving than the gaming press at the moment.

http://theindiestone.com/binky/2014/09/21/alpha-funding-early-access-is-not-an-alternative/

Read the last comment.

Do we have any actual info on if they are indeed banning people for talking about this?

 

[PaulloDEC]

Read the last comment.

Do we have any actual info on if they are indeed banning people for talking about this?

Rule #1 on the Double Fine forums is "Be nice".

The post that made them ban me was me saying it is funny watching the events play out and the responses were making me lol.

Doesn't sound very nice to me. Also, I can't find any evidence of Justin Bailey calling him anything - a search doesn't show Justin Bailey having made any posts at all within the last two months.

Another gem of a post from the same guy:

i think it was us complaining about the incompetence of the spacebase team and the mods came in and went “incompetence? I’ll show you incompetence!”

 

[LurkerPrime]

Hopefully, its not already posted. Project Zomboid Developer's take on the whole situation. Understandably, he is a lot less forgiving than the gaming press at the moment.

http://theindiestone.com/binky/2014/09/21/alpha-funding-early-access-is-not-an-alternative/

I missed this before.

PZ Dev's blog post is right on the mark - Early Access is a viable and worthwhile method for developing a game, but only if it is being done properly (as they outline). There are games that could never be made save for Early Access releases. We're talking incredibly ambitious, innovative titles that rely as much on customer feedback as they do the money that funds them. This direct contact with customers is something that even Kickstarter cannot provide, and it is uniquely invaluable.

What the PZ dev said about price is a very good point. Early Access is a risk, and both developers and consumers need to embrace that. High prices for an EA title are a developer rejecting their risk unto the consumer; it is a sign that the developers have no faith in their own creation. It is, at its core, the developer hedging their bets and assuming that the game will fail, which will only serve to burn their most loyal fans.

So this is Double Fine's biggest sin: they're delegitimizing Early Access because of their irresponsibility, greed, and... fear. They wanted to subsidize Spacebase DF-9's development by using their fans... the only problem is that they don't have enough fans to fully fund a game. Because of their inflexibility, they would rather drop the game than change themselves or take any sort of risk on it. This was not Early Access... it was a cynical attempt at "indie" game development.

The bottom line is that even Double Fine themselves had no faith in the project. They charged a (relatively) high price for an alpha that they didn't believe it, because they knew that the game was a risk. They anticipated the failure, and they are now no different than the evil publishers that send games out to die.


An aside, but Project Zomboid is the reason I can't swear off Early Access titles. It is too unique and too ambitious to ignore. In spite of everything, even though the Universe itself seems set on stopping its creation, it continues to endure development. Project Zomboid is a poster child for how Early Access should work - a project of relentless passion, unstoppable ambition, and incredible faith. It isn't just a zombie game - it is the zombie game.

If you want to swear off Early Access titles, keep in mind that it will only amplify the damage and mistakes that Double Fine is responsible for. Boycott DF games, sure, but don't let Double Fine cause even more harm.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

I still think there are some good things that come out of these failed experiments, specifically gaining valuable experience in communicating with your audience and learning how to integrate that with long term project planning.

Don't expect backers to share this sentiment of course, but I do feel it is a necessary process this industry has to go through in order to reach a state that is better for everyone.

 

[kinoki]

As someone who bought the game primarily to support Double Fine and secondly because it seemed like an interesting game, I have no problem with this. I don't get the outrage but then again I seldom do when it comes to gaming. It's somewhat disappointing that they couldn't make a better game. They are talented but their talents always seem to be squandered.

 

[spindoctor]

They are probably closer to this than you think.

This is worrying because now I wonder if Broken Age is going to suffer the same fate. They had already burned through most (or all) of their Kickstarter funds and whatever additional sources of revenue they had generated (Brutal Legend Steam release, Humble Bundle promotion etc.) by the time the first part of the game released. Makes you wonder if the second part is entirely dependent on revenues from early access sales. Of course this time we won't know for sure since there isn't a public facing document listing their design goals.

 

[M*A*S*H]

the only problem is that they don't have enough fans to fully fund a game.

Given their kickstarter history, the irony here is priceless.

 

[Ghost]

The bottom line is that even Double Fine themselves had no faith in the project. They charged a (relatively) high price for an alpha that they didn't believe it, because they knew that the game was a risk. They anticipated the failure, and they are now no different than the evilpublishers that send games out to die.

If the game wasn't a risk it never would have gone to early access in the first place because investors would have been throwing money at it to get on board with the first ever sure thing in gaming.

And I must have missed the links to the source code publishers release when their games don't meet expectations.

 

[mgs2master2]

Lol Double Fine. Typical.

 

[Zombine]

Lol Double Fine. Typical.

I agree to an extent. I no longer support Double Fine and their inability to get shit done. In my eyes, they abuse the good will of their fans, and whenever they are called out it turns on the person who has a legitimate complaint with how they operate, and it somehow waters down into how horrible those of us are who no longer support them, and that Tim Schafer is perfect (because he is just TOO funny.)

 

[Wthermans]

Yet another fine example of Kickstarter/Early Access being a scam.

 

[Wiktor]

And I must have missed the links to the source code publishers release when their games don't meet expectations.

You mean the source code they are releasing in hopes fan will make the game whole so that DF can make more money off their work for free?

 

[PaulloDEC]

I agree to an extent. I no longer support Double Fine and their inability to get shit done. In my eyes, they abuse the good will of their fans, and whenever they are called out it turns on the person who has a legitimate complaint with how they operate, and it somehow waters down into how horrible those of us are who no longer support them, and that Tim Schafer is perfect (because he is just TOO funny.)

Forgive me, but when has this sort of thing really happened before? I mean, thinking back on controversies related to Double Fine, I can remember:

• Brutal Legend isn't what it was marketed to be (EA's doing)
• Broken Age's entire rocky development and release deal
• A few people getting upset about the Massive Chalice Kickstarter launching during the aforementioned Broken Age stuff
• Spacebase DF9 being cut short

I realise I'm already in extreme danger of being eternally branded as a massive Double Fine kiss-ass, but I just can't see how one incident translates to a long history of "abusing the goodwill of fans".

Yet another fine example of Kickstarter/Early Access being a scam.

Don't the scammers usually benefit from a scam somehow? Seems like Spacebase has resulted in Double Fine losing both money and goodwill.

 

[Zombine]

I realise I'm already in extreme danger of being eternally branded as a massive Double Fine kiss-ass, but I just can't see how one incident translates to a long history of "abusing the goodwill of fans".

Unfortunately, what you just listed has been their output for the past few years. I enjoyed Stacking and Costume Quest and Iron Brigade, but I've been questioning them since they had the success with their first kickstarter, then immediately turned around and requested money for another project. I find that abusive, and it is clear that they figured out that their fans are suckers and will fun most of their work. I would love to hear from various publishers if they have even bothered to pitch their projects to them. I think there is way more to this story than "Poor Tim and crew can't catch a break. We should accept that they can't budget or hit their own internal goals for crap."

I want Double Fine to succeed, but they don't inspire much confidence from me.

 

[More_Badass]

Yet another fine example of Kickstarter/Early Access being a scam.

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=899021

Yet another example of ridiculous over-generalizations

 

[KPJZKC]

I paid $25 for this 6 months ago or so - saw this thread, thought maybe they had made good progress since then - check release history picture, lol, no.

Lesson learned, will not be providing Double Fine with any of my money in the future.

 

[samuraidino]

It's really getting harder and harder to support double fine with the same level of passion that I once did.... I do love their games, and I'm not particularly broken up at space base's abandonment even though I bought it day one....

But, for years I'd have said that they were an amazing developer who just had the worst of luck with publishers, and their games, while great never lived up to their potential as a result.

But it's becoming more and more clear after the Broken Age and now this space base controversy that the blame shouldn't have been solely on the publishers and that DF needs to be held a bit more accountable for the mistakes and missteps of some of their games.

.... And man, after writing all that I instantly feel terrible, as even semi-bashing double fine is something Iv never wanted to do.

 

[dumbo]

Yet another fine example of Kickstarter/Early Access being a scam.

As with other recent failures, a certain degree of blame lies with the consumer.

Early access is "buy this early-access game now, and help me finish it"... but you are *only* buying the 'early access' game, if you don't enjoy that game, then don't buy it yet. That game will either develop into something you might enjoy, or it won't. Whatever happens, you won't lose anything by just waiting. (watch a youtube video on the game and see whether it looks "fun" and has enough content)

This is a problem I also have with the Star Citizen model - people are effectively "buying real estate on Mars". As Star Citizen's model has been successful, I'm expecting more of this type of bull manure from "less reputable" companies.

IMHO people need to take more care of their own money.

 

[Stiflers Mom]

I will buy their finished games like I used to, and I never supported any kickstarter or early access things anyway..

Nothing lost for me...

 

[Parsnip]

Massive Chalice started as literally scribbles on a white board to something that's really only spit and polish away from being complete.

Pizzabox man.
Never forget.

 

[BibiMaghoo]

I think perhaps my biggest issue here is that a developer that has been around for years, making many games, both successful and not, would so utterly fuck up finance for said game.

These people have not just a good idea what a game costs, but know exactly what is needed, and what that costs.

This essentially boils down too "We ran out of money", but that is a shitty answer, because it was all projected before they started. That means they under evaluated what the game would cost them to make, and offset that against potential sales, that they put at higher than they were. Two mistakes that cost them.

That is a monumental fuck up, that I would expect from a new dev house, not someone like DF.

Them saying it was all funded with the money given to them and their own, and that all the money the game made was spent on the game, does not in anyway, address this error.

 

[Wiktor]

I think perhaps my biggest issue here is that a developer that has been around for years, making many games, both successful and not, would so utterly fuck up finance for said game.

These people have not just a good idea what a game costs, but know exactly what is needed, and what that costs.

This essentially boils down too "We ran out of money", but that is a shitty answer, because it was all projected before they started. That means they under evaluated what the game would cost them to make, and offset that against potential sales, that they put at higher than they were. Two mistakes that cost them.

That is a monumental fuck up, that I would expect from a new dev house, not someone like DF.

Them saying it was all funded with the money given to them and their own, and that all the money the game made was spent on the game, does not in anyway, address this error.

THey counted on it becoming one of propably top 2-3 biggest EA successes. Which was kind of silly.

 

[spindoctor]

DF have done 2 Kickstarters and 2 Early Access games in the last couple of years. They seem to be getting into the habit of shifting financial risk of their projects onto consumers.

 

[Finster]

Is it unreasonable to think that this is an example of something that had it followed a traditional development model, could've made a LOT more money than it did?

Early Access isn't the best choice for every type of game, I think.

 

[exmachina64]

This is worrying because now I wonder if Broken Age is going to suffer the same fate. They had already burned through most (or all) of their Kickstarter funds and whatever additional sources of revenue they had generated (Brutal Legend Steam release, Humble Bundle promotion etc.) by the time the first part of the game released. Makes you wonder if the second part is entirely dependent on revenues from early access sales. Of course this time we won't know for sure since there isn't a public facing document listing their design goals.

We do know these things because they're stated in the Broken Age documentary. Yes, Broken Age Episode 2 is entirely dependent on the sales of Episode 1.

• A few people getting upset about the Massive Chalice Kickstarter launching during the aforementioned Broken Age stuff

A few? They're coming out of the woodwork.

 

[Baron_Calamity]

Forgive me, but when has this sort of thing really happened before? I mean, thinking back on controversies related to Double Fine, I can remember:

• Brutal Legend isn't what it was marketed to be (EA's doing)
• Broken Age's entire rocky development and release deal
• A few people getting upset about the Massive Chalice Kickstarter launching during the aforementioned Broken Age stuff
• Spacebase DF9 being cut short

Fan wise, the only two strikes they have against them is Broken Age and now Spacebase DF9. As for a developer, they've always been trouble. Even their first game, Psychonauts was bounced around publishers and ended up costing way more than similar titles to make.

That said, unless they start working on a major game soon, I don't think they will be around for much longer. These small projects aren't going to keep the doors open.

 

[CecilRousso]

Is it unreasonable to think that this is an example of something that had it followed a traditional development model, could've made a LOT more money than it did?

Early Access isn't the best choice for every type of game, I think.

If this was based on a traditional development model, it would have been killed of long ago, since the game is still struggling to provide enough content and entertaining gameplay to be a wortwhile purchase.

 

[mnannola]

Isn't the basic gist of this that Spacebase was just not as fun they as they thought it would be in it's current state?

People didn't buy Minecraft because of future potential, they bought it because it was a fun game. Same with all the other successful EA games.

It seemed like word of mouth for Spacebase was that it had a lot of potential to be a Dwarf Fortress kind of game, but wasn't very fun in it's current state due to lack of depth. This should be an immediate red flag that the game should not have yet been released to EA. Sure some people will buy the game based on potential and developer pedigree, but the majority of gamers will only pay money when their friend/familly member/favorite youtuber says the game is a lot of fun.

Hopefully the people that got burned on this do some more research in the future as to what they are buying. If they are not interested in the game in it's current state, don't buy it. Only buy if you wish to support the developer and are ok with losing your money on a poorly made prototype.

Also I hope developers take note. If you expect people to fund your development by releasing on EA, make sure your game is fun to play in it's current released state. Not only that, but it has enough depth for people to play for more than 20 minutes without getting bored.

 

[Finster]

If this was based on a traditional development model, it would have been killed of long ago, since the game is still struggling to provide enough content and entertaining gameplay to be a wortwhile purchase.

But if it was a traditional release, it wouldn't even be published until the content was there. This game had a laundry list of really cool and interesting gameplay elements, and was even somewhat fun up to this point. It's just not complete.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Unfortunately, what you just listed has been their output for the past few years. I enjoyed Stacking and Costume Quest and Iron Brigade, but I've been questioning them since they had the success with their first kickstarter, then immediately turned around and requested money for another project. I find that abusive, and it is clear that they figured out that their fans are suckers and will fun most of their work. I would love to hear from various publishers if they have even bothered to pitch their projects to them. I think there is way more to this story than "Poor Tim and crew can't catch a break. We should accept that they can't budget or hit their own internal goals for crap."

I want Double Fine to succeed, but they don't inspire much confidence from me.

Hahaha, what? How is that even remotely abusive? Are the Torment devs abusing their fans by starting a kickstarter before wasteland 2 released, even though both games are looking great?

Devlopers have multiple teams. Did you want them to use their broken age kickstarter money on massive chalice, something that would actually be comepletely unethical?

 

[Parsnip]

But if it was a traditional release, it wouldn't even be published until the content was there. This game had a laundry list of really cool and interesting gameplay elements, and was even somewhat fun up to this point. It's just not complete.

If it had been traditional release, it would have never gotten past the prototype because no publisher would fund a game like this.

 

[Munin]

If it had been traditional release, it would have never gotten past the prototype because no publisher would fund a game like this.

A publisher like Paradox probably would have. Of course the truth is that no serious publisher ever wants to work with Double Fine again.

 

[Parsnip]

A publisher like Paradox probably would have. Of course the truth is that no serious publisher ever wants to work with Double Fine again.

I don't know about that.
I mean, as has been established here and elsewhere, running a game company in SF is expensive, and I wouldn't be surprised if pubs (especially European pubs like Paradox) would rather spend money on devs that are elsewhere and get more dev time per dollar.

 

[Dictator93]

As much as like that Double Fine does their own thing, they seem to be rather poor at managing their game development.

Also their games are kind of a technical mess on PC. WHich does not make any sense given their history on the PC platform.

 

[Haunted]

The Steam forums are a mess right now. Turns out Schafer himself went into the forums to answer questions:

I think Doublefine's stance on transparency and patient communication is absolutely admirable.

It seems really hard, and I think most companies would ask "why bother doing things this way?", but ever since the DFA KS and the 2PP guys turning up at the office to make that documentary, Tim and co. are really sticking to it and I think that's great.

 

[CecilRousso]

But if it was a traditional release, it wouldn't even be published until the content was there. This game had a laundry list of really cool and interesting gameplay elements, and was even somewhat fun up to this point. It's just not complete.

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here, other then stating the obvious . It really isn't any idea to speculate what a publisher funded version of the game would have been, when it was never on the cards to do the game like that.

 

[Kinyou]

Hopefully, its not already posted. Project Zomboid Developer's take on the whole situation. Understandably, he is a lot less forgiving than the gaming press at the moment.

http://theindiestone.com/binky/2014/09/21/alpha-funding-early-access-is-not-an-alternative/

He makes some good points. Double Fine is probably way too big (and San Fransisco to costly) to cut even with an alpha early access model, let alone make profit. Double fine seemingly went kind of naive into this.

 

[DryvBy]

I dunno much about the game other than it was being worked on. Is this 1.0 actually going to be complete enough to enjoy? I love games like this.

 

[Finster]

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here, other then stating the obvious . It really isn't any idea to speculate what a publisher funded version of the game would have been, when it was never on the cards to do the game like that.

Because there's a greater discussion to be had here. That is, as I said before, whether applying early access to a game like Spacebase was more or less effective than just developing the game traditionally and releasing it when it's actually a complete product.

And whether it's published by someone like Paradox for Matrix Games or whether it's self published, my argument is that there is a solid game concept here, and I think it COULD have been published as a finished product. Maybe by Stardock or Paradox, but the game concepts are sound.

I dunno much about the game other than it was being worked on. Is this 1.0 actually going to be complete enough to enjoy? I love games like this.

So do lots of other people

 

[KPJZKC]

I dunno much about the game other than it was being worked on. Is this 1.0 actually going to be complete enough to enjoy? I love games like this.

From what I played (I guess two alpha versions ago), I'd have to guess no. Won't keep you interested more than 90 minutes - it didn't for me, anyway, and I go mad for these types of games. Don't buy it.