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[KamenSenshi]

I'm still amazed at how much love Gohan gets here. He was lame and raised to be lame. Even though GT is pretty bad it is the natural evolution of his character, basically a decent, mid-tier fighter. When did he ever stand out, he had potential but he wasn't a fighter by nature or nurture really.

 

[WickedAngel]

I'm still amazed at how much love Gohan gets here. He was lame and raised to be lame. Even though GT is pretty bad it is the natural evolution of his character, basically a decent, mid-tier fighter. When did he ever stand out, he had potential but he wasn't a fighter by nature or nurture really.

He made Cell his bitch at 11 years old. He was the youngest and, at the time, strongest Saiyan in existence. Props were earned.

His character should have become much more than it was. At the end of the Cell games, they'd set him up to be the torch bearer and the future of Earth's defense only to retcon it and make him a joke. That joke played out for the rest of the Dragonball continuum, barring the brief redemption against Buu.

The transition made no sense. His awakening against Cell made it quite clear that he realized that there was evil in the world that had to be destroyed...so once it was destroyed, he shirks his duties, stops training seriously, becomes a pussy, and worries about petty high school bullshit? By the time Buu came about, Gohan and Vegeta should have been approaching the limits of SSJ2, if not having broken into SSJ3.

 

[lightless_shado]

I'm still amazed at how much love Gohan gets here. He was lame and raised to be lame. Even though GT is pretty bad it is the natural evolution of his character, basically a decent, mid-tier fighter. When did he ever stand out, he had potential but he wasn't a fighter by nature or nurture really.

Don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure the plan was for Goku to die/recede into the background like Roshi while Gohan takes over as the protagonist. It is in his nature, or rather was I guess-to be a fighter. He did damage to Raditz, whooped frieza's ass, and was basically there whenever the chips were down and someone needed to do something. If Goku had stayed dead after the fight with Cell, things would be very different.

But to be honest, the manga could've ended after the fight with Frieza. That would've been the perfect point to end it.

 

[smurfx]

I'm still amazed at how much love Gohan gets here. He was lame and raised to be lame. Even though GT is pretty bad it is the natural evolution of his character, basically a decent, mid-tier fighter. When did he ever stand out, he had potential but he wasn't a fighter by nature or nurture really.

since the beginning when gohan was introduced he was always shown to have a huge hidden power. its pretty evident that toriyama was always planning on him being a mega power but i guess the fans always loved goku more and it never happened but he still tried with the cell games.

 

[Regulus Tera]

I always assumed it was genetics.

Like, Gohan was as strong as he was because Goku was really strong when Chi-Chu got knocked up and he had Super Saiyan Swagger when she got knocked up again with Goten, making him just pop out with SSJ for no reason (same with Trunks, Vageta wasn't to far from SSJ when he was made). Plus, it would be easier to make them super saiyans if they are being raised by people who know how to.

Then I guess it was genetics being changed by their dads having their power levels when they were making babies.

I mean, thats the only way you can explain why these "strongest saiyans" breed off-sing that are able to pop into SSJ like nothing.

This is not how genetics work.

 

[WickedAngel]

This is not how genetics work.

We're talking about a race of monkey men who "power up" by flexing hard and screaming...of all things, the muddling of the races is the easiest to understand.

It seemed apparent to me that there were inherent barriers in Saiyan genetics that were either dampened or eradicated completely by the introduction of human DNA.

 

[Regulus Tera]

We're talking about a race of monkey men who "power up" by flexing hard and screaming.

So Liquid was inferior superior after all?

I mean it's totally okay if you invoke "spiral power" or "a wizard did it", but if you involve hard real-world science into a fanwank discussion then you gotta get it right.

It seemed apparent to me that there were inherent barriers in Saiyan genetics that were either dampened or eradicated completely by the introduction of human DNA.

Human and Saiyan DNA mixing up does sound more credible than "Goku did a shitton of crunches and push-ups so his sperm grew muscles".

 

[smurfx]

btw did it also bother people that king kai knew instant transmission all the time and never bothered to teach it to goku? why not teach it to the other guys as well when they died and were trained by him?

 

[TheVampire]

btw did it also bother people that king kai knew instant transmission all the time and never bothered to teach it to goku? why not teach it to the other guys as well when they died and were trained by him?

In the anime he said that, in the manga he didnt.
If your going off the anime its just another plot hole.

Its such a usefull technique, moving to planet to planet (freezers destroy the planet trick wouldnt work having this ability), using it to attack like how goku blasted cell in half, saving time etc.... Goku should of taught it but noooooo, Just kept it for himself to add to his god complex

 

[jaxword]

I mean it's totally okay if you invoke "spiral power" or "a wizard did it", but if you involve hard real-world science into a fanwank discussion then you gotta get it right.

You can't seriously be invoking "hard real-world science" in a Dragonball debate...

 

[Unknown One]

I rather have a prequel to Dragonball. Like follow the adventures of Master Roshi. There is a lot of things to flesh out with Master Roshi. Ranging from his training to King Piccolo to the present beginning of Dragonball.

 

[Erigu]

Everyone always talks about how Toriyama wanted it to end here or there, or stopped caring at this or that point, but I haven't once seen a single thing to indicate that's the case aside from people bitching and moaning about what happens in a story that's not theirs.

By a guy who actually knows what he's talking about, unlike most people:
http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=15102

 

[jaxword]

By a guy who actually knows what he's talking about, unlike most people:
http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=15102

That's a good read. It seems to confirm at least 2 different ending points, both in DB, interestingly. Not so much in DBZ, although it definitely admits the absurdity of the writing post-Cell.

It also points out that the Buu saga evolved completely differently than any original plans.

 

[BladeoftheImmortal]

Hell yeah. Yu Yu Hakusho for life.

Only until the Dark Tournament ended. Then it got rushed to the end, sadly.

EDIT: This thread takes me back, though. Back to a better age. When the internet was only used as a DragonballZ information guide. Now I use the internet for everything, that kinda sucks.

 

[Roto13]

As stupid as the Buu stuff was, my ten-year-old self was fucking amazed by ze spirit bomb. Dragonball is one of those series I'd rather not re-read or re-watch... there's too much nostalgia there, too many fond memories I'd rather not destroy.

As long as you accept the cheesiness, it's safe to rewatch it.

This is not how genetics work.

It doesn't matter how genetics work.

 

[Lebron]

Yeah, SSJ became a joke.

But dem Super Saiyans! It's like how Star Wars turned into, "show me your lightsaber!" The SSJ spamming just killed the whole lure of them. All the stuff Vegeta talked about during the Frieza saga was now a bunch of BS.

Buu Saga was so shit it's not even funny, worse than Garlic Jr saga. Yeah, I said it. Garlic Jr saga didn't ruin anything with its shitty, unlike the Buu one.

/my kid self rant

 

[theinfinityissue]

I thought Gohan was at his most monstrously powerful in the Buu saga, when he was... uh.. "mystic" Gohan I think? No super saiyan required. He got ganked kind of early, so he never had the chance to lose his shit like he would normally, but in a different timeline he probably would have been rocking Vegitto power levels.

Man, that was fun. I miss this shit.

 

[Kagari]

I'm still amazed at how much love Gohan gets here. He was lame and raised to be lame. Even though GT is pretty bad it is the natural evolution of his character, basically a decent, mid-tier fighter. When did he ever stand out, he had potential but he wasn't a fighter by nature or nurture really.

GT isn't canon though.

I thought Gohan was at his most monstrously powerful in the Buu saga, when he was... uh.. "mystic" Gohan I think? No super saiyan required. He got ganked kind of early, so he never had the chance to lose his shit like he would normally, but in a different timeline he probably would have been rocking Vegitto power levels.

Man, that was fun. I miss this shit.

It was awesome, but way too short lived... all that build up for nothing :/ Which was silly considering he's the strongest non-fused character after Elder Kaioshin unlocks his power.

 

[KamenSenshi]

He made Cell his bitch at 11 years old. Barely though when it came down to it. Still needed to be cheered on. Maybe he could have beaten Buu after the Mystic power-up if he was being cheered on?

The transition made no sense. His awakening against Cell made it quite clear that he realized that there was evil in the world that had to be destroyed...so once it was destroyed, he shirks his duties, stops training seriously, becomes a pussy, and worries about petty high school bullshit?And ultimately this is his "legacy" so to speak. A pansy who didn't have confidence in his ability even after being trained by Goku and Piccolo.


By the time Buu came about, Gohan and Vegeta should have been approaching the limits of SSJ2. This is true, though Vegeta seemed to have plateaued as he needed to Majin power up to get to SSJ2 from what I remember. Or maybe he just didn't have that push to train like he did with Goku to try and compete with. Even though he would train hard anyway.

GT may not be canon but it's fitting for Gohan. Weren't the Kai shocked at how strong Goku was at SSJ3, I can buy that maybe at that first moment Gohan would be strongest, but after Vegeta & Goku's battle with Buu, with them both getting hammered and Goku using up energy trying to hold the SSJ3 and losing it I'd think Goku would be stronger again. Once they wished for his strength back he only briefly had to go Super to overpower Buu with his Genki Dama and that was after it was almost pushed back on him. So I would imagine his SSJ3 would at least be equal to Mystic.

 

[master15]

One thing that always bothered me and maybe some one can explain this was the huge inconsistencies when it came to the show's drawing. One episode it would look great, the next it seemed like the B-animators and crew got the gig and did a weak job.

 

[KamenSenshi]

Actually if I'm remebering correctly that's not far off the mark. Think there were a couple teams of animators on the show, something like a team for the major stuff/fights and the other. Might be a a little hazy though, it's been a while since I read up on it. Seeing even the style from Saiyan saga/early Namek to pretty much anything later made me want to find out what was going on.

 

[sphagnum]

One thing that always bothered me and maybe some one can explain this was the huge inconsistencies when it came to the show's drawing. One episode it would look great, the next it seemed like the B-animators and crew got the gig and did a weak job.

When you're doing a show that puts out a new episode every week nonstop, you have to prioritize where the budget goes. Sometimes an episode gets shoved off to the B-team.

 

[Sapiens]

That's just how animation works. Why spend money on the mundane when you can allocate your resources to the exciting stuff?

Watching Batman TAS episode by episode is a great way to see how the producers gave certain types of episodes to certain animation houses. I think BatmanTas involved more than 10 animation studios at their height.

The ones that TMS (Akira) did were amazing, for instance (and very few).
The ones done by Korean/American animation houses were, of course, terrible.

Inconsistancy was a really, really big part of animated cartoon series' in the 70s, 80s, 90s. I kind of miss it.

 

[Cosmic Dreams]

Can someone tell me how One Piece is superior to DB in their eyes?

I mean I've read both manga and I find them enjoyable, but I can't usually stand One Piece's manga sometimes cause there's way too much shit going on in one panel almost every time.

I can't usually tell where the story's focusing at points like that.

It hurts the eyes.

 

[Igoritza]

GT may not be canon but it's fitting for Gohan. Weren't the Kai shocked at how strong Goku was at SSJ3, I can buy that maybe at that first moment Gohan would be strongest, but after Vegeta & Goku's battle with Buu, with them both getting hammered and Goku using up energy trying to hold the SSJ3 and losing it I'd think Goku would be stronger again. Once they wished for his strength back he only briefly had to go Super to overpower Buu with his Genki Dama and that was after it was almost pushed back on him. So I would imagine his SSJ3 would at least be equal to Mystic.

i always tried to make some sense into DBZ, when there was none, so this is how i see it:

Kaio-os knew about SSJ3 only when Goku have done it on the King Kai's planet, when he was training. one should assume that in the world of the "dead", there is less Ki around. so when old Kaio said - it should be as SSJ3 - he ment SSJ3 that Goku was achieving on King Kais planet. maybe, in the world of the living - it gets a boost.

 

[exarkun]

The person who got the worst shaft was Vegeta. He never was as strong as Goku, and I understand that they wanted his inferiority to cloud his character but wtf. He trains harder, eventually becomes a halfway decent person and all that just so he could suck. His only shining moment of true dominance was against the fat android and and second stage cell. Cell doesn't even really count since they forced Vegeta into this extreeeme stereotype of himself in order to let cell get to the third stage.

While he was integral to all of the main villains losing with his speech to Goku against freeza/him hold freeza off, the whole final blast against Cell so Gohan could kill him, and the speech to Earth/holding off Kid Buu, his roles in those battles were so...bad. Yea without him they might not have won, but it always felt like they were just doing it to appease fans/cause they didn't know what else to do with him.

 

[jaxword]

The person who got the worst shaft was Vegeta. He never was as strong as Goku, and I understand that they wanted his inferiority to cloud his character but wtf.

Toriyama wrote Vegeta as an archetype of the dangers of letting your arrogance and pride overcome reason and logic.

Note the irony of posting that in Dragonball argument threads and watch people completely, utterly miss that lesson.

 

[Lebron]

The person who got the worst shaft was Vegeta.

Well, he did save shitty Gohan with the sneak attack on Cell

 

[Stat Flow]

Look at this badass motherfucker. Him > Trunks Haters

 

[Igoritza]

well, exarkun, it seems to me that you have missed the point. and that point is in these words:

 

[GaimeGuy]

Toriyama wrote Vegeta as an archetype of the dangers of letting your arrogance and pride overcome reason and logic.

Note the irony of posting that in Dragonball argument threads and watch people completely, utterly miss that lesson.

Wouldn't that make more sense for, say, Frieza?

Vegeta trained harder than any other character in the series. He outwitted Frieza to steal the Dragon Balls. If Toriyama was going for that kind of a "lesson", he did a really, really shitty job at it. You don't add ambition and dedication when you're trying to go for hubris :lol

 

[jaxword]

Wouldn't that make more sense for, say, Frieza?

Vegeta trained harder than any other character in the series. He outwitted Frieza to steal the Dragon Balls. If Toriyama was going for that kind of a "lesson", he did a really, really shitty job at it. You don't add ambition and dedication when you're trying to go for hubris :lol

While that's true, remember Toriyama doesn't exactly go for deep writing and often contradicts himself as he goes along. On multiple occasions, Vegeta's pride costs him dearly, and he seems to learn his lesson..only to forget it a few chapters later and repeat the process.

 

[Tathanen]

By a guy who actually knows what he's talking about, unlike most people:
http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=15102

There we go.

And you know, when has there ever been a hugely long serialized story when the creator(s) don't change their minds about things part of the way through? Or develop large chunks not knowing where they're gonna go?

Cell gives validation to Gohan's powers sure, but can't that be enough? Why does he then have to go on and be the main character? I don't think Toriyama ever intended something like that, it sure isn't mentioned anywhere in that link. Gohan's no Goku, who cares that he surpassed him for one moment in one fight. Goku is surpassed by people all the time, and he always surpasses them right back. It's the very nature of his character, he did it for like 80 arcs, what's one more right at the end?

 

[ZoddGutts]

Can someone tell me how One Piece is superior to DB in their eyes?

I mean I've read both manga and I find them enjoyable, but I can't usually stand One Piece's manga sometimes cause there's way too much shit going on in one panel almost every time.

I can't usually tell where the story's focusing at points like that.

It hurts the eyes.

I like how Oda cram's alot of detail/story in each panel though I understand why people may be bothered by it because it doesn't have that "clean" art look to it. On the opposite end there's bleach with lack background/detail, basicly each page is one huge panel with white background lol.

 

[jaxword]

Cell gives validation to Gohan's powers sure, but can't that be enough? Why does he then have to go on and be the main character? I don't think Toriyama ever intended something like that, it sure isn't mentioned anywhere in that link.

Are you sure you read that closely? Toriyama even admits he made a mistake making Gohan the main character.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Goku is surpassed by people all the time, and he always surpasses them right back. It's the very nature of his character, he did it for like 80 arcs, what's one more right at the end?

Actually, that's the funny part about the Buu Saga: Goku is the exact same strength at the start of it as at the end of it. He's always holding back for some reason or another (IE: He doesn't want to hurt vegeta's pride by showing him SSJ3, or he doesn't think he, as a dead person, should be protecting the world of the living, or he wants to give Vegeta a shot to fight Kid Buu, or something stupid like that).

He could have killed Buu any time in any form except Super Buu or Super Buu after absorbing some other characters. The only reason he had to resort to the Genki Dama is because by holding back against Kid Buu, he had allowed himself to take damage, and Buu's regeneration abilities allowed him to, at that point, surpass Buu in strength. Hee's a fucking idiot. :lol

 

[exarkun]

well, exarkun, it seems to me that you have missed the point. and that point is in these words:

I understand that he was supposed to be lesson in humility and why you shouldn't be too prideful/arrogant etc. but his character didn't really progress at all from Frieza to Cell. Majin Buu we see him taking Trunks to park after punching him in the face and thus he is now slightly caring individual, but by then he is too late. Too weak.

Also uh, after frieza Vegeta always fought because he absolutely couldn't lose either. He sacrificed himself for arguably a good cause, but you really knew it was partly selfish. That is also a severe form of pride though which Goku, Gohan, Trunks, and Vegata all had. Its just Vegeta was the worst. So I don't understand. Yes, Vegeta was an extreme example of letting pride and ego play a dominant part in your life but at least make the man stronger! Thats all I wanted.

 

[Tathanen]

Are you sure you read that closely? Toriyama even admits he made a mistake making Gohan the main character.

Er yeah, my bad, I kind of made that point with the first thing I was saying there but got a bit confused.

 

[Deadly]

The only reason he had to resort to the Genki Dama is because by holding back against Kid Buu, he had allowed himself to take damage, and Buu's regeneration abilities allowed him to, at that point, surpass Buu in strength. Hee's a fucking idiot. :lol

Since when did he hold back? IIRC, Vegeta tells him to go all-out and he answers that, that is what he has been doing from the start.

 

[Nert]

The person who got the worst shaft was Vegeta. He never was as strong as Goku, and I understand that they wanted his inferiority to cloud his character but wtf. He trains harder, eventually becomes a halfway decent person and all that just so he could suck. His only shining moment of true dominance was against the fat android and and second stage cell. Cell doesn't even really count since they forced Vegeta into this extreeeme stereotype of himself in order to let cell get to the third stage.

While he was integral to all of the main villains losing with his speech to Goku against freeza/him hold freeza off, the whole final blast against Cell so Gohan could kill him, and the speech to Earth/holding off Kid Buu, his roles in those battles were so...bad. Yea without him they might not have won, but it always felt like they were just doing it to appease fans/cause they didn't know what else to do with him.

If nothing else, Vegeta was given the biggest, most over the top spectacle of the series.

FINAL FLASH!

 

[Lebron]

If nothing else, Vegeta was given the biggest, most over the top spectacle of the series.

FINAL FLASH!

Gohan's blast was junior in comparison to that, and yet, Cell survived. You can't win unless you have the Goku seed.

 

[Kagari]

There we go.

And you know, when has there ever been a hugely long serialized story when the creator(s) don't change their minds about things part of the way through? Or develop large chunks not knowing where they're gonna go?

Cell gives validation to Gohan's powers sure, but can't that be enough? Why does he then have to go on and be the main character? I don't think Toriyama ever intended something like that, it sure isn't mentioned anywhere in that link. Gohan's no Goku, who cares that he surpassed him for one moment in one fight. Goku is surpassed by people all the time, and he always surpasses them right back. It's the very nature of his character, he did it for like 80 arcs, what's one more right at the end?

He did, he just changed his mind somewhere down the line. The funny part is Gohan is still the strongest character in the entire series by the end, "[Gohan is] the strongest character in the manga to be unaided by fusion or absorption as stated by Akira Toriyama in the second Daizenshuu, on page 114."

 

[GaimeGuy]

Since when did he hold back? IIRC, Vegeta tells him to go all-out and he answers that, that is what he has been doing from the start.

He says something along the lines of "Oh shit, you were cool with seeing me finish him off? I thought you wanted another piece of him since you died trying to kill him, so I was holding back to give you another shot. I'm not so sure I can beat him with the damage I've taken now..."

 

[Kagari]

Going to split off this thread I think since it's strayed so off-topic :lol

 

[Celsior]

He did, he just changed his mind somewhere down the line. The funny part is Gohan is still the strongest character in the entire series by the end, "[Gohan is] the strongest character in the manga to be unaided by fusion or absorption as stated by Akira Toriyama in the second Daizenshuu, on page 114."

I always found it hilarious that goku didn't grab gohan but grabbed and saved Satan instead.
If he grabbed Gohan and had the supreme kai heal him Gohan would of one shotted kid Buu :lol :lol

 

[GaimeGuy]

I always found it hilarious that goku didn't grabbed gohan but grabbed and saved Satan instead.
If he grabbed Gohan and had the supreme kai heal him Gohan would of one shotted kid Buu :lol :lol

:lol

 

[Kagari]

Have at it.

 

[Kagari]

I always found it hilarious that goku didn't grab gohan but grabbed and saved Satan instead.
If he grabbed Gohan and had the supreme kai heal him Gohan would of one shotted kid Buu :lol :lol

I forgot that happened... and now you've made me remember it!

 

[Regulus Tera]

Going to split off this thread I think since it's strayed so off-topic :lol

I just spent like two hours trying to find this discussion because google search is fucking shit.

You can't seriously be invoking "hard real-world science" in a Dragonball debate...

It doesn't matter how genetics work.

Then don't call them genetics.

 

[X-Frame]

Oh, awesome idea splitting the thread Kagari!

Next you'll need to split it again with a "DB Manga/Anime Vent Thread"