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[Agent_4Seven]

But the Hugo quest isn’t that bad, there’s a guy 10 meters away from him who tells you exactly what to do.

No, there's no guy 10 meters (not even 10, more like 4) away from him unless you stumbled upon a completely random quest miles away from Battahl, which is totally not related to anything regarding Hugo's questline whatsoever and you don't even know about it and that it's this exact quest you need to do to move things forward. You've absolutely no clue as to what to do after bribing NPC 2(!!!) times which is absolutely pointless btw. And even then you also need to do another completely unrelated quest to even finish Hugo quest and you have absolutely zero clue as to which quest it is, and as if that wasn't stupid and terrible enough, you also need to do one more thing which I'm sure 99% of people won't do at all and will get stuck forever and there's one other thing before that thing which is not even a quest unless you do something else which is totally not obvious to put it lightly. So what, we have at least 3 softlocks here and we can add to that another one which is completely random and happened to me the first time in NG.

IT'S FUCKIN' HORRIBLE!

The fact that you can completely fail quests is actually one of my favorite things in this game, plus it adds some replayability.

Well, now you're just defending terrible quest design here. What's the point in replayability as an argument here, if it changes nothing about quest design? The quests themselves are not even good to begin with (not all, but vast majority).

 

[Chukhopops]

No, there's no guy 10 meters (not even 10, more like 4) away from him unless you stumbled upon a completely random quest miles away from Bathall, which is totally not related to anything regarding Hugo's questline whatsoever and you don't even know about it and that it's this exact quest you need to do to move things forward. You've absolutely no clue as to what to do after bribing NPC 2(!!!) times which is absolutely pointless btw. And even then you also need to do another completely unrelated quest to even finish Hugo quest and you have absolutely zero clue as to which quest it is, and as if that wasn't stupid and terrible enough, you also need to do one more thing which I'm sure 99% of people won't do at all and will get stuff forever and there's one other thing before that thing which is not even a quest unless you do something else which is totally not obvious to put it lightly. So what, we have at least 3 softlocks here and we can add to that another one which is completely random and happened to me the first time in NG..

IT'S FUCKIN' HORRIBLE!


Well, now you're just defending terrible quest design here. What's the point in replayability as an argument here, if it changes nothing about quest design? The quests themselves are not even good to begin with (not all, but vast majority).

I wasn’t sure what you meant so I checked a walkthrough for that quest. I played blind and for me the events of the quest played naturally, including the « finding a new job » part since I had done the bordelrie quest. But it’s true that some of the prerequisites are not obvious.

I still like this quest design because it’s basically CRPG-style with multiple possible outcomes, not all of which are happy endings. It makes you feel like your actions have created your own version of the world, as opposed to completely linear quest design.

It’s even better once you reach the « dark world » and those quests have further consequences.

I agree it’s kinda hardcore to use that design in a game where you cannot save scum.

 

[Terenty]

The interconnectedness of quests and sometimes seemingly random nature of how they play out depending on what you did previously is actually one of the best features of the game wtf.

If they start listening to all the "feedback" on the internet you will end up with a dumbed down generic product like every fucking game on the market nowadays, because it dared do something different and of course someone got lost.

Hopefully they won't come here looking for inspiration on what to "improve".

 

[Agent_4Seven]

I still like this quest design because it’s basically CRPG-style with multiple possible outcomes, not all of which are happy endings. It makes you feel like your actions have created your own version of the world, as opposed to completely linear quest design.

Well, I've no problem with multiple outcomes and it's a cool concept when it actually works, but the way it works in DD"2".... you might not even get any outcome whatsoever lol, which is not a thing at all in CRPG and BG3 for example, which is arguebly the best modern CRPG - I haven't failed anything or stuck on any quests in that game in the first two acts I've played.

There is one other quest btw related to Battahl princess which you can sort of fail but at the same time not really. To get the best outcome you need to do something completely not obvious which depends on what you decided to do before the meeting. There isn't even a hint that you need to maybe do this and that for the best outcome, which is not that different from the worst one, but still. That's not good design, it's horrible and intentionally cryptic af and counterintuitive. It's not that you'll get something amazing for the best outcome, but that's not the point here.

Like, why would you 1) decide to put the princess at risk and agree with her 2) want to kill her as requested while the purpose of the quest is exactly opposite cuz you barely saved the princess the first time and must not put her at risk yet again? I mean, it's not the intent of the devs that is bad here (multiple outcomes and all that), but it's how they designed and wrote the whole thing which maybe should be at least 1-2 quests longer to properly convey as to what you should be doing without telling you the whole sequence and it's an art form in itself btw, to be able to do that without giving too much away and handhold you the whole way.

It is clear as day that quest design are not strong suit of the theam that made the game and they need to work hard on that for the next one. They have good intentions, but they need to work on how to make the whole thing to work and look right without trivializing everything.

It’s even better once you reach the « dark world » and those quests have further consequences.

Can you elaborate on that? Cuz... I haven't seen a lot of memorable consequences for your actions. There's a few things you can do with NPCs if you did something before, but it's far from being something memorable and exciting tbh. None of the love interests do anything at all, none of the many other quests as well. The whole end game is rushed af and clearly not finished properly if at all. You can also get stuck with elves if you didn't help them to restore their tree and vast majority of people won't give a fuck when it happens and never figure out that you can move things forwards if you'll be just trying to talk to elves leader hundreds of times until he'll give up.

I agree it’s kinda hardcore to use that design in a game where you cannot save scum.

You sort of can by sleeping at the Inn, but even then and as we discussed and pointed out already, it's not even obvious to begin with as to what for you should be save scumming

The interconnectedness of quests and sometimes seemingly random nature of how they play out depending on what you did previously is actually one of the best features of the game wtf.

Can you explain "the bestness" of cryptic, convoluted and counterintuitive af quest design? Cuz I and a lot of people are not finding this good even, let alone "one of the best things game has to offer". It's objectively bad on many levels and there's no redeeming factors for such a design. I also don't get why the fuck do you think that everything must be super obvious, I haven't said that and didn't mean to, it's just there's good design and people who can do complicated quest right, and there's bad design and poeple who don't understand how to make it work properly without giving too much away, there's no ifs or buts and it's not rocket science, but it's that simple.

Hopefully they won't come here looking for inspiration on what to "improve".

Oh, they will, believe me. They will be looking here on GAF, Steam, Reddit, Twitter and in other places as well.

 

[Terenty]

Can you explain "the bestness" of cryptic, convoluted and counterintuitive af quest design? Cuz I and a lot of people are not finding this good even, let alone "one of the best things game has to offer". It's objectively bad on many levels and there's no redeeming factors for such a design. I also don't get why the fuck do you think that everything must be super obvious, I haven't said that and didn't mean to, it's just there's good design and people who can do complicated quest right, and there's bad design and poeple who don't understand how to make it work properly without giving too much away, there's no ifs or buts and it's not rocket science, but it's that simple.

I looked up the Hugo quest and apparently a lot of people didn't know how to proceed, because you can do it in different order with different quests. I didn't have that problem, but I concede I might have lucked out and this particular quest might have been done better.

Still, having so many different things play into a quest and have different outcomes is a much more interesting and ambitious design than your usual stuff.

 

[hyperbertha]

That is a whole tome buddy. Will be spoken of through the ages by scholars.

 

[Agent_4Seven]

I looked up the Hugo quest and apparently a lot of people didn't know how to proceed, because you can do it in different order with different quests. I didn't have that problem, but I concede I might have lucked out and this particular quest might have been done better.

The order matters, but not in a game with good quest design cuz in a game like this, you won't even notice that there's an order (at least not super obvious one) to anything you must follow to complete questlines, cuz everything will be happening organically and it is not about DD"2". In DD''2'' you can get stuck in a quest just because you haven't been in some place, haven't done completely unrelated thing and now you're wondering WTF you did wrong and it'll happen again and again, cuz you have no clue as to what you should be doing and what have you missed.

You have no idea that this one person (of which there are zones in the game) is not related to a quest but you must help him anyway (that is if he or she (or even multiple characters at once in different parts of the world) won't get killed and can't be found in the crypt - it can and will happen). It's just a guessing game more than anything else and it must not work like that, no matter the intention behind it. Like, this one quest I've mentioned which is totally unrelated to a character in anyway and yet, if you won't complete it for whatever reason you're fucked and next time you won't know what was the cause if you complete it cuz there's no way of knowing that unless you go and read the guide. I don't effin' want to look at the guide to complete a quest I don't even like, but the fuckin' thing at the quest log won't get away unless I do.

Quests and especially long quest lines with multiple characters, events and outcomes must not be designed like this and work like that, they should be easy to follow, understand and all that but they must not give away too much information and trivialize things to a point of completely losing the complexity and intention behind the whole thing. It's fuckin' hard to achieve and I don't blame anyone who's trying to do it and fails. It doesn't look like the team behind DD''2'' knows how to handle this and so they did it in the worst way possible, which is a mistake they need to learn from and get better at, but not to trivialize things next time, that's not what I meant to say. I mean, it's bad, but in no way it should be looked at as something unfixable let alone that it should be left as is.

If there's anything I've learned from playing NG+ is that it's either a complete randomness in which order you get the quest or if you get them or not even. Cuz I remember doing the same thing in NG and did not get the quest follow up at all, dispite literally being in the same places dozens of times. Moreover, I know for a fact now that I didn't do anything wrong, it's just the game decided to play or not play certain events and hense why I now getting more new quests in NG+ that I haven't seen before (except the ones which are super not obvious and you actually need to do some things manually to even get the quest and before the game will let you know that now you have it).

Still, having so many different things play into a quest and have different outcomes is a much more interesting and ambitious design than your usual stuff.

Well, I think no one will argue that completing Fallout 1 without even doing much at the end by yourself is a cool fucking thing, but you need to have a skill to achieve something like this and design it properly. Fallout 4 is complete opposite of that and is an example of how you turn complex quests and quest design into complete pile of shit for people without brains.

Anyway, most devs don't even get a chance to make things right in today's day and age, but I hope that it's not the case with this team and DD as an IP, cuz I believe in them and I think that they can do better next time, given a lot more time, way bigger budget and the second chance most of all, cuz without it everything else don't matter.

 

[thief183]

If they don't start putting arrows, quest indicator, timers, count downs, and all the shit modern gaming have, dragon's dogma will never manage to appeal to the low IQ the average gamer has. Most of the things most of you are critics in this thread are the exact things that made this (and the first) game memorable for me.

 

[Chukhopops]

Well, I've no problem with multiple outcomes and it's a cool concept when it actually works, but the way it works in DD"2".... you might not even get any outcome whatsoever lol, which is not a thing at all in CRPG and BG3 for example, which is arguebly the best modern CRPG - I haven't failed anything or stuck on any quests in that game in the first two acts I've played.

There is one other quest btw related to Battahl princess which you can sort of fail but at the same time not really. To get the best outcome you need to do something completely not obvious which depends on what you decided to do before the meeting. There isn't even a hint that you need to maybe do this and that for the best outcome, which is not that different from the worst one, but still. That's not good design, it's horrible and intentionally cryptic af and counterintuitive. It's not that you'll get something amazing for the best outcome, but that's not the point here.

Like, why would you 1) decide to put the princess at risk and agree with her 2) want to kill her as requested while the purpose of the quest is exactly opposite cuz you barely saved the princess the first time and must not put her at risk yet again? I mean, it's not the intent of the devs that is bad here (multiple outcomes and all that), but it's how they designed and wrote the whole thing which maybe should be at least 1-2 quests longer to properly convey as to what you should be doing without telling you the whole sequence and it's an art form in itself btw, to be able to do that without giving too much away and handhold you the whole way.

It is clear as day that quest design are not strong suit of the theam that made the game and they need to work hard on that for the next one. They have good intentions, but they need to work on how to make the whole thing to work and look right without trivializing everything.


Can you elaborate on that? Cuz... I haven't seen a lot of memorable consequences for your actions. There's a few things you can do with NPCs if you did something before, but it's far from being something memorable and exciting tbh. None of the love interests do anything at all, none of the many other quests as well. The whole end game is rushed af and clearly not finished properly if at all. You can also get stuck with elves if you didn't help them to restore their tree and vast majority of people won't give a fuck when it happens and never figure out that you can move things forwards if you'll be just trying to talk to elves leader hundreds of times until he'll give up.


You sort of can by sleeping at the Inn, but even then and as we discussed and pointed out already, it's not even obvious to begin with as to what for you should be save scumming


Can you explain "the bestness" of cryptic, convoluted and counterintuitive af quest design? Cuz I and a lot of people are not finding this good even, let alone "one of the best things game has to offer". It's objectively bad on many levels and there's no redeeming factors for such a design. I also don't get why the fuck do you think that everything must be super obvious, I haven't said that and didn't mean to, it's just there's good design and people who can do complicated quest right, and there's bad design and poeple who don't understand how to make it work properly without giving too much away, there's no ifs or buts and it's not rocket science, but it's that simple.


Oh, they will, believe me. They will be looking here on GAF, Steam, Reddit, Twitter and in other places as well.

Regarding the dark world I can remember that doing the quests in the elves area is mentioned once you start the evacuation. Same with the Phantom Oxcart when you do the pawn evacuation.

To be clear I agree with you that there are a lot of glitchy quests in the game and some need to be patched.

 

[Agent_4Seven]

Regarding the dark world I can remember that doing the quests in the elves area is mentioned once you start the evacuation. Same with the Phantom Oxcart when you do the pawn evacuation.

Yeah, I've mentioned the elve quest in my post above, but I don't know what Oxcart quest will do as I only saw and completed it in NG+

 

[Chiggs]

A high quality post being met with complaints? Come on, guys...

OP pretty much listed every reason why I gave up on the game 5 hours into it.