Dutch government says goodbye to multicultural society

Status
Not open for further replies.
K

Kabouter

Member
THE HAGUE, June 17 (Xinhua) -- The Dutch government will abandon the model of a multicultural society.

In a letter to parliament on Thursday Minister Piet Hein Donner of Internal Affairs states that the Netherlands will start a new integration policy.

"The government shares the social discontent that exists on the multicultural society," read the letter published Friday. "In the new integration, the values of the Dutch society play a central role. With this change, the government steps away from the model of a multicultural society."

The new government wants more demands on immigrants. They should be responsible themselves for ensuring that they learn the Dutch language.

"A more obligatory integration is justified because the government also demands that from its own citizens," the letter continued.

"It is necessary because otherwise the society gradually grows apart and eventually no one feels at home anymore in the Netherlands. The integration will not be tailored to different groups."

The letter announced various measures, such as subsidies and measures for the integration of specific groups will be stopped and will be part of an overall integration policy.

Action will be taken against forced marriages and a burqa ban will be announced from Jan. 1, 2013.

The measures are no surprise since the new government of the liberal party VVV and the Christian Democrats CDA, supported by the anti-islam Party of Freedom PVV, already signaled of taking these steps.

The largest opposition party, the labor party PvdA, was't happy at all with the integration note.

"I fear that the government is making a historic mistake," said integration spokesman Martijn van Dam in Dutch newspaper De Volkskrant. "Actually, they say there are problems, but they will not help," he added.

"These sounds were also heard in the sixties and eighties. That did not go well. I'm afraid we have to say the same in about 10 years."
Click to expand...

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/culture/2011-06/17/c_13936084.htm

Previous similar threads (except that in this case it's about a concrete policy shift):
David Cameron - State multiculturalism has failed
Multiculturalism has failed, says Sarkozy
German Chancellor Merkel: "Multiculturalism has failed"
Algerian-born man living in France is refused French nationality
 
Wow. I have to say, I'm in agreement.

"The government shares the social discontent that exists on the multicultural society," read the letter published Friday. "In the new integration, the values of the Dutch society play a central role. With this change, the government steps away from the model of a multicultural society."
Click to expand...
That line is blowing my mind.
 
Just to confirm: is this a linguistic mix-up similar to the German multiculturalism=/=Multikulti thing, or this this explicitly what they're saying?

Seems pretty explicit. Hm, this will go over interestingly...
 
The_Technomancer said:
Just to confirm: is this a linguistic mix-up similar to the German multiculturalism=/=Multikulti thing, or this this explicitly what they're saying?

Seems pretty explicit. Hm, this will go over interestingly...
Click to expand...
Multiculturalism is where you encourage immigrants to create their own miniature communities within a larger society. It's a nice theoretical idea, but (in Europe at least) it does not work at all in practise and causes huge problems, both with the 'natives' becoming unwelcoming and the immigrant communities purposefully isolating themselves off and keeping their old (and sometimes illegal) traditions alive, even if they rub directly counter to the perceived values of the nation.

Saying "no" to multiculturalism is *not* saying no to immigration, foreigners or asking people to complete divorce themselves from their cultural heritage, it is instead focussing more on finding a common ground and saying "you can move to our country, but there are certain things you're going to have to do our way of you want to stay". It's an attempt to cut down on isolated mini-nations within nations and the almost ghetto effect it creates.

Or to put it another way, a Chinese immigrant would have to make an effort to define themselves as (culturally) Dutch first and Chinese second. They wouldn't hav to divorce themselves from their rich Chinese heritage, as that can add something new and wonderful to the nation, but it cannot and should not take centre stage prominence in how they live their life and go about interacting with the wider Dutch populace.
 
If all this means is that they're banning the bad culture of the world (the article cites forced marriages and burqas), then I see nothing wrong here. It's a bold move.
 
Can't say I'm surprised by this at all. There will be plenty more countries in the EU adopting new approaches in the near future I'm sure.
 
Suairyu said:
Multiculturalism is where you encourage immigrants to create their own miniature communities within a larger society. It's a nice theoretical idea, but (in Europe at least) it does not work at all in practise and causes huge problems, both with the 'natives' becoming unwelcoming and the immigrant communities purposefully isolating themselves off and keeping their old (and sometimes illegal) traditions alive, even if they rub directly counter to the perceived values of the nation.

Saying "no" to multiculturalism is *not* saying no to immigration, foreigners or asking people to complete divorce themselves from their cultural heritage, it is instead focussing more on finding a common ground and saying "you can move to our country, but there are certain things you're going to have to do our way of you want to stay". It's an attempt to cut down on isolated mini-nations within nations and the almost ghetto effect it creates.
Click to expand...

I agree with this if this is what it really means. I hate the way in the UK there are areas where the demographics have been completely altered to the norm in view of culture, it doesn't seem to help anything at all, it just creates more ways to divide people.
 
The new government wants more demands on immigrants. They should be responsible themselves for ensuring that they learn the Dutch language.*
Click to expand...

*except for people on a knowledge migrant visa

there's no way they will remove the exemption for this, unless they just hate the economy, like the upcoming weed ban seems to suggest.

I kind of approve the stricter language policy but I don't know how it will work, I'm part of the expat community here and it's large enough that the only language you hear is english is about 90% of your free time. I learned it, but using it daily is a laughable idea, it's just not possible (which is how it must also be for the poorer immigrants as well).

not really sorry to see the burqa getting banned to be honest.
 
Mohonky said:
Can't say I'm surprised by this at all. There will be plenty more countries in the EU adopting new approaches in the near future I'm sure.
Click to expand...
EU leading the way once again.

Too much tolerance for "culture," and you end up with Evangelical Christians, "God Hates Fags", white supremacy, etc.
 
A good move, but 30 years too late. The Dutch never asked for a multicultural society in the first place. The mass import of non-western immigrants was the biggest political mistake since WW2.
 
Good, it's about time.

Why should any country let some foreigner settle there unless that person is willing to make an effort to integrate into the society they are choosing to join. Got a problem with that? Don't go there.

Under "similar threads" you should include the recent one about the French denying citizenship to an Algerian immigrant who doesn't let his French wife leave the house.
 
xbhaskarx said:
Under similar threads you should include the recent one about the French denying citizenship to an Algerian immigrant who doesn't let his French wife leave the house.
Click to expand...
Would you happen to have a link to that thread?
 
Dang, pretty strong stance, though I can't say I disagree with it. Will be curious to see how all these recent movements pan out (e.g. France, Germany, Holland, Italy and so on) and if Sweden will be swayed eventually.
 
xbhaskarx said:
Under "similar threads" you should include the recent one about the French denying citizenship to an Algerian immigrant who doesn't let his French wife leave the house.
Click to expand...
In searching for whether this thread might be a double, I came across the Cameron/Sarkozy/Merkel threads, so I thought it might be good to add them for those wanting to get a better picture of the broader EU-trend. Didn't see the thread you mention though, but I'll find it and add it to the OP. Thanks.
 
SmokyDave said:
Would you happen to have a link to that thread?
Click to expand...
Algerian-born man living in France is refused French nationality

An Algerian-born man living in France has been refused French nationality because of his "degrading attitude" towards women.

The man, who has not been named, is married to a Frenchwoman, but does not allow her to leave the family home freely, it was claimed.


In what is seen as a legal precedent, his application for French nationality was turned down because "his idea of sexual equality is not that of the republic"

The French constitution states that the government can refuse nationality or strip nationality for a "lack of integration"
Click to expand...
 
xbhaskarx said:
Under similar threads you should include the recent one about the French denying citizenship to an Algerian immigrant who doesn't let his French wife leave the house.
Click to expand...

.......amazing that people tolerate that. Why would a women marry a beast like that?

It's been brewing for a while now, many countries in the EU have had a gut full of immigrants and the problems that have come with them. I would be very surprised if Europe don't just lock down their borders at some point.
 
Mohonky said:
.......amazing that people tolerate that. Why would a women marry a beast like that?

It's been brewing for a while now, many countries in the EU have had a gut full of immigrants and the problems that have come with them. I would be very surprised if Europe don't just lock down their borders at some point.
Click to expand...
Always the best thing to do when your continent is dying. Close the borders.
Can't wait to work until I'm 80!
 
ymmv said:
A good move, but 30 years too late. The Dutch never asked for a multicultural society in the first place. The mass import of non-western immigrants was the biggest political mistake since WW2.
Click to expand...
How so?
 
Good. I agree that the model of multiculturalism as practiced in Europe is not working. You can't have backwards and progressive cultures harmonizing next to each other.

What worries me is what is the definition of "values of the Dutch society" by this new government. I always thought the Dutch are progressive and liberal. It doesn't compute that on the one side they try to fight backwards influences and on the other side they try to crack down on prostituation and marihuana. There is definitely a hypocrisy going on there.
 
Phantast2k said:
Ahh, one of those threads that will turn 180° once the NA gafers wake up.
Click to expand...

NA gafer reporting in and I agree with this too.

I would've posted sooner, but I was waiting for my new Ottoman to arrive before I could Scribe this post.
 
xbhaskarx said:
Algerian-born man living in France is refused French nationality
Click to expand...
Cheers chap. Much shorter than I expected.

Kabouter said:
Always the best thing to do when your continent is dying. Close the borders.
Can't wait to work until I'm 80!
Click to expand...
Incentivise higher birthrates for those you wish to 'breed'. Promote culturally compatible immigration.

Phantast2k said:
Ahh, one of those threads that will turn 180° once the NA gafers wake up.
Click to expand...
Yup. Can't wait to hear some American opinions of multi-culturalism in Europe.
 
this is definitely a good thing for the country overall, and the reference to "losing its identity" is very apt. David Cameron said that multiculturalism had failed in Britain... im sure the UK is watching the Netherlands very carefully.
 
Kabouter said:
Always the best thing to do when your continent is dying. Close the borders.
Can't wait to work until I'm 80!
Click to expand...

You're absolutely right, Europe needs immigrants because the population is aging and young Europeans don't have enough babies so the number of working people per number of non-working is getting out of hand.
But policies like these don't necessarily have to be anti-immigration, they can let in immigrants whose values are less at odds with those of their country.
There are plenty of potential immigrants out there who are willing to do things like learn Dutch, or NOT imprison their wives...


SmokyDave said:
Incentivise higher birthrates for those you wish to 'breed'. Promote culturally compatible immigration.
Click to expand...
That is another option.
 
xbhaskarx said:
Good, it's about time.

Why should any country let some foreigner settle there unless that person is willing to make an effort to integrate into the society they are choosing to join. Got a problem with that? Don't go there.
Click to expand...

It is incumbent (in at least a moral sense) on the government to have a coherent and defensible notion of the precepts or tenor of the society, though.

I mean, we have Australian senators who can, in the same breath, promote themselves as defenders of Enlightenment philosophy and characterise the entire nation as monolithically Judaeo-Christian.

Such nurks quite substantially influence policy. I can't ask or expect anybody to integrate into a society at the behest or under the oversight of people who have no fucking idea about anything.
 
SmokyDave said:
Incentivise higher birthrates for those you wish to 'breed'.
Click to expand...
Yep, pretty much every European country has tried this to no avail. The effects of these highly expensive policies have been minimal. Thing is, financial incentives won't change a trend that has been ongoing for a very long time. We shouldn't forget that World War II and the subsequent population boom were the deviations from the norm, European birthrates were already declining before it. The only way to maintain population levels (though ideally, they would be increasing at a nice steady pace) is immigration, there is no alternative. Of course this means formulating good policies so you attract the 'best' immigrants and you integrate those that come as well as possible. But one has to be realistic in that you are never going to get sufficient numbers from developed nations, people will only come in the numbers that Europe desperately needs when they come from low opportunity backgrounds.
 
Kabouter said:
Always the best thing to do when your continent is dying. Close the borders.
Can't wait to work until I'm 80!
Click to expand...
Except the unemployment rate of the immigrants tend to be higher than the natives and so they may cost more in social benefits than they add by (not) working.
 
Phantast2k said:
Ahh, one of those threads that will turn 180° once the NA gafers wake up.
Click to expand...
Unfortuntately. Just once, I'd like one of these threads to be well modded. Make it a rule that you'll get banned for equating this with xenophobia or (more stupidly) racism.
 
Misterinenja said:
Yeah I'm somewhat pro-multiculturism but these are subjects that I think are hard to NA gaffers to fully grasp.
Click to expand...

Ya, I guess I get it. European culture is dying or something. But... it doesn't sit well with me. Not that I have any love for muslim cultural bullshit, but I dunno man. I like religious freedom & people to wear & have their own customs & shit.

I'm a world away from it though, so I can't really grasp how crazy the feeling are in Europe over immigration.
 
I agree with this. Multikulti was a nice idea in theory, but it just doesn't work out well. Here as well.
Me and my family are immigrants outselves and the first thing we did was learning the language sending me to school and finding a job.
I'm always disappointed when I see kids on the streets whose parents lived far longer here and don't speak a word of German, or don't take their kids education seriously...
 
SmokyDave said:
Cheers chap. Much shorter than I expected.


Incentivise higher birthrates for those you wish to 'breed'. Promote culturally compatible immigration.


Yup. Can't wait to hear some American opinions of multi-culturalism in Europe.
Click to expand...
Try to tell the so called "left" that certain immigrant groups are more compatible than others, or *gasp* that not all cultures are worth of respect in the XXI century.
 
ymmv said:
A good move, but 30 years too late. The Dutch never asked for a multicultural society in the first place. The mass import of non-western immigrants was the biggest political mistake since WW2.
Click to expand...

Yeah things turned real bad once the brown people were allowed in.
 
effzee said:
Yeah things turned real bad once the brown people were allowed in.
Click to expand...
And this is why we can't have nice debates.

Everything absolutely has to be boiled down to racism, doesn't it?
 
WorriedCitizen said:
Good. I agree that the model of multiculturalism as practiced in Europe is not working. You can't have backwards and progressive cultures harmonizing next to each other.

What worries me is what is the definition of "values of the Dutch society" by this new government. I always thought the Dutch are progressive and liberal. It doesn't compute that on the one side they try to fight backwards influences and on the other side they try to crack down on prostituation and marihuana. There is definitely a hypocrisy going on there.
Click to expand...

Our current government ain't exactly progressive and liberal. Hell, our prime minister stuck his head up the SGP's ass last year, a party which explicitly wants to take away candidature rights from women.
 
catfish said:
*except for people on a knowledge migrant visa

there's no way they will remove the exemption for this, unless they just hate the economy, like the upcoming weed ban seems to suggest.

I kind of approve the stricter language policy but I don't know how it will work, I'm part of the expat community here and it's large enough that the only language you hear is english is about 90% of your free time. I learned it, but using it daily is a laughable idea, it's just not possible (which is how it must also be for the poorer immigrants as well).

not really sorry to see the burqa getting banned to be honest.
Click to expand...

The expat community is a bit of a different thing then immigrants though. Even though some expats might stick around a lot are probably going to leave for another country/home country eventually. Immigrants are probably going to stick around. To participate in this society, you need to speak the native language. There was a very interesting documentary on this the other day, produced by VPRO (probably still viewable on Uitzending Gemist, I'll look it up) where a couple of women were interviewed that were part of the first group of labor immigrants from North Africa coming to the Netherlands in the 60s/70s. In hindsight most seemed to really regret not learning the language properly sooner. Some never learned it all.
 
MaddenNFL64 said:
Ya, I guess I get it. European culture is dying or something. But... it doesn't sit well with me. Not that I have any love for muslim cultural bullshit, but I dunno man. I like religious freedom & people to wear & have their own customs & shit.
Click to expand...

People IMO should have these freedoms, and I have issues with the burqa bans for example.

But at the same time I think countries should foster a strong shared culture: in addition to whatever individual cultures exist. You should subscribe to a common ground.

For US gaffers, I'd suggest that this is what's happened in the US. There is a much stronger core sense of being 'American' that virtually all groups seem to share and aspire to. European countries should try to foster the same. Heavy-handedness with legislation around burqas etc. isn't the right way to go about it, IMO, but the concept of abandoning segragation of multiple cultures vs integration into a common ground is a worthy one IMO.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Tom Scott says goodbye
36
3K
Happosai replied
[UK] Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government security row
2
76
4K
Paasei replied
Dutch GAF - BARS(S)
3 4 5 6 7
323
11K
HRK69 replied
[Reuters] Disney tweaks DEI programs to focus on business outcomes, memo says
News Business 
4
728
jason10mm replied
Dragon Ball will continue for decades, says producer
News  2
76
3K
NahaNago replied
Top Bottom