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[Mrbob]

The portable situation is different because Nintendo is treading new ground. As far as games go, 360 really isn't doing anything different than the Playstation systems. MS isn't really trying to forge their own path as much as try to take Sony head on in the home entertainment business. MS does have online as a trump card at the moment, but that card may be over with by Nov 17. Nintendo is smart, as they have not decided to battle Sony head on anymore. Nintendo is trying to forge a new path. That is, of course, until Sony decides it is time to come in and take it.

 

[Majmun]

Yeah, Sony can copy the Wii controls. But Nintendo can't copy Ps3's graphics.

 

[jimbo]

To people in the US the price of the PS3 is perceived as a barrier while the rest of the world sees it as business as usual. How many times does this have to be repeated?

LOL What crock. :lol Considering the income per household in 95% of European countries and Japan, is a lot less than US, price is a barrier in the US but not everywhere else? I guess everyone there just steals theirs.

 

[Kabouter]

LOL What crock. :lol Considering the income per household in 95% of European countries and Japan, is a lot less than US, it's an even bigger barrier over there.

PS2 launched for 1249 guilders here
Which is equal to around 570 euro
Factor in inflation, and the PS2 launched for no more than the PREMIUM PS3.
Oh, and the PS2 sold out at an insane rate.

 

[E-phonk]

But we are used to pay a lot on hardware. Our cars, our tv's, our computers, our games, our cd's.. They all cost more to buy them here then if we would import them from the US.

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

The Xbox 360 is still an unproven system. Especially since it is far more expensive than the PS2. With the PS3 on the way in Sonyland, I can only expect Xbox 360 sales to be mild at best. Once PS3 gets released there, I think that will be when the true test begins. If PS3 delivers, Xbox 360 will probably never sell more than 15,000 to 25,000 a week (the exceptions being price drops but it will eventually settle to these numbers). If the PS3 flops, I could see Xbox 360 take the helm as the popular system of Europe, with Wii not too far behind.

 

[Kleegamefan]

PS2 launched for 1249 guilders here
Which is equal to around 570 euro
Factor in inflation, and the PS2 launched for no more than the PREMIUM PS3.
Oh, and the PS2 sold out at an insane rate.

Please don't screw up the FUD with facts.....

 

[jimbo]

PS2 launched for 1249 guilders here
Which is equal to around 570 euro
Factor in inflation, and the PS2 launched for no more than the PREMIUM PS3.
Oh, and the PS2 sold out at an insane rate.

And yet nowhere near what it sold in the US......

 

[Kabouter]

And yet nowhere near what it sold in the US......

# PlayStation 2: 106.23 Million shipped as of June 30, 2006 (Japan: 23.55, USA: 42.97, Europe: 39.71)

I wouldn't call it nowhere near really

 

[Majmun]

Wow, ps2 already @ 106mln?

I wouldn't be surprise if it reached the 120mln

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

Wow, ps2 already @ 106mln?

I wouldn't be surprise if it reached the 120mln

when it hits $99....

 

[Arsenal]

18k might be accurate for one of the weeks, but I definitely do not believe that is an average for a long period of time. Of course Sony will find the most lopsided comparison they can find to put in their press release

You do have to consider though that the 360 summer drought that was bad here in the US is worse over in Europe. MS is still searching for a hit game over there, although a few games seem to have sold decently like Oblivion and Tomb Raider. If you have illusions of the 360 outselling the PS3 in Europe though, thats just silly. If MS can close the gap from last gen in anyway though, thats pretty much a win for them.

Why people think the Wii will suddenly do better in Europe than the GC though, I don't understand. If you talk about the 360 being targeted for an anlgo-saxon audience, then IMO the Wii is the oposite of that and is targeted towards the Japanese audeince. The PS3 remains the most well rounded console, but how that will perform in a more fragmented market is going to take some time to see.

 

[JJConrad]

your skepticism is justifiable, although shortsighted, imo. Anyone can look at last generation and then the last 8-9 months with 360 and say, "oh well, nice try, 3rd place and ~30 million max". That could very well happen, but that's probably the worst case scenario. There are too many variables at this point and *lots* of advantages the 360 has over the Xbox that I'm not willing to ignore.

At this point, 30 million is realistic, not shortsighted. For every advantage the 360 has, it also has its disadvantages. It would require a turn-around this industry has never seen to hit 50 million units.

MS has to figure out a away to either differentiate itself from or replace the PS3 in the eyes of consumers. Nintendo is clearly taking the first option, but what is MS doing? It has Xbox Live, but Sony and Nintendo will have their own similar online plans. It's less expensive than PS3, but won't be the least expensive console. It has less power and fewer features than the PS3. It has no new features in its controller. Its library is limit in range, it has minimal japanese support, most of its games will be multiplatform, and of the three companies MS has the least popular first party catalog. It launched first but struggle with supply and has lost much of its momentum since then. MS has done very little to make the 360 anything more than the Xbox... why should the results be any different? It's going to take more than what MS is doing to replace the PS3.

At this point, I would say that 360's best chance at 50 million units is Sony really screwing up.

 

[elostyle]

Why people think the Wii will suddenly do better in Europe than the GC though, I don't understand. If you talk about the 360 being targeted for an anlgo-saxon audience, then IMO the Wii is the oposite of that and is targeted towards the Japanese audeince. The PS3 remains the most well rounded console, but how that will perform in a more fragmented market is going to take some time to see.

Singstar, Buzz and eyetoy games are very popular in europe and so is the DS. Also, HDTV adoption rate is slower. The Wii could very well succeed much more than the GC.

 

[plagiarize]

PS2 launched for 1249 guilders here
Which is equal to around 570 euro
Factor in inflation, and the PS2 launched for no more than the PREMIUM PS3.
Oh, and the PS2 sold out at an insane rate.

all true. but it's also true that pretty much every console to launch after the ps2 has been cheaper. in the uk, the premium 360 was cheaper at launch than the premium ps2 was at launch... and as anyone will tell you most of those sales aren't at launch. most sales come once you get below a certain price. it's not impossible for the ps3 to be first to that price point... but it is bloody unlikely.

you need the software library to back it up... see the gamecube for proof there... but the price difference DOESN'T just matter at launch and you can't just compare the price difference between PS2 and PS3 ignoring the price of the 360.

before you throw 'dreamcast' at me... it didn't have the software library that the 360 does at this stage... and microsoft aren't in financial trouble.

 

[Jokeropia]

Interesting is that NPD has PS2 (in the US) at 34 million as of June compared to Sony's 42 million shipped figure. I wonder what the worldwide sold-through number is.

Why people think the Wii will suddenly do better in Europe than the GC though, I don't understand. If you talk about the 360 being targeted for an anlgo-saxon audience, then IMO the Wii is the oposite of that and is targeted towards the Japanese audeince.

Europe loves quirky unconventional games like Singstar, Buzz, Nintendogs etc. (The DS has taken off in many parts of Europe almost as well as it has in Japan.) The Wii is well suited for such games.

 

[Funky Papa]

I mentioned this before and it's funny that not many more people realised this.

Sony has been building the PlayStation brand since 1995. The PSone established itself as the platform of choice for most gamers, proving wrong all the people who claimed it was doomed (that is, mostly everybody) trying to fight against the two colossus in the industry, Sega and Nintendo. But the system got good games and great marketing campaigns and that showed in the results.

After the success of this system and its successor, people know that if they buy a PlayStation they're going to get everything they're looking for in a console. They trust the brand as until now it has delivered most things promised and people don't forget that.
That's why PS3 doesn't even need advertising, its name says it all.

But what about the Xbox? The Xbox wasn't well marketed, nobody really cared about the system so there was no precedent to back up Xbox360's launch. They had to start from zero. But this time around the console's marketing is just as bad as Xbox's. Or even worse. That can't be good.

Exactly.

And let's not forget that the Xbox 360 doesn't have a killer line-up so far. The original Xbox destroyed pretty much everything with Halo, DOA3 and PGR3 at launch, all of them great games with superb graphics available from the very beginning. The Xbox 360 has a decent catalogue but nothing that moves the European consumer; people are having way too much fun with the current PS2 and PC games to look for another system. So far the Xbox 360 offers nothing, and if Sony's horrible PR doesn't **** up the PS3 launch MS could get even a bigger spanking in Europe. And I'll be somewhat happy, because they deserve all the shit they get for being the most incompetent bunch I've ever seen.

****, Nokia put way more passion promoting the N-Gage.

 

[Square2005]

Another reason for XB growing success in the U.S. vs. PAL territories may be: Madden's growing sales share on the XB/360 in the U.S. vs. Sony's. Check out my graph from my Madden sales thread:

360 may become the next Madden console or another Madden dominant console. [I personally hope not]

Consider the growing share Madden 2004, 2005 had over 2004 (we shoodn't compare 06 vs. 2005 b/c 06 was released on 2 platforms for a Microsoft console):

             [U]GC     PS2       [B]XB[/B][/U]
2003 -    7.2% 78.9% [B]13.9%[/B]
2004 -    6.7% 76.3% [B]17.0%[/B]
[U]2005 -    8.1% 69.0% [B]22.9%[/B][/U]
sys LTDs: [B]18.4% 56.6% 25.0%[/B]: as of 8/2005 (when Madden 2005 stopped selling)

I believe Madden's growing YoY sales (now the 2nd most popular series in the U.S. after GTA) is a contributer to higher sales w/n the States in comparison to the rest of the world for Microsoft. (Remember football [not soccer] is only played w/n the U.S.)

 

[open_mouth_]

MS has to figure out a away to either differentiate itself from or replace the PS3 in the eyes of consumers. Nintendo is clearly taking the first option, but what is MS doing?

I disagree that the 360 has to differentiate itself, because it really doesn't have to. Because of the insane price descrepency, the 360 will always have a noticable price advantage over the PS3 and price plays a big part in the market--bigger than many people are giving it credit for. So, I would argue that MS only has to make the 360 seem as good as the PS3 and the price will take care of the rest. PS3 has, so far, failed to establish itself as better than 360 in any way, especially in software (so far).

It has Xbox Live, but Sony and Nintendo will have their own similar online plans.

"Similar" is a strong word there. They will mimick alot of Live's features, but what are the changes their service will be as streamlined, bug free, and content-full as XBL? Has sony or nintendo's past online implementation efforts given you confidence?

It has less power and fewer features than the PS3. It has no new features in its controller.

Less power? That may be true, but it has yet to be proven through games and doesn't seem like it will be proven for the foreseeable future. This is actually a huge disadvantage for the PS3... coming out 1 year later and not having a "real" visible graphical advantage so far? Ouch. The verdict is out on whether people will pay extra for blu-ray. The 360 controller is one of the most refined controllers ever. Rumble is a nice feature, too

Its library is limit in range, it has minimal japanese support, most of its games will be multiplatform, and of the three companies MS has the least popular first party catalog. It launched first but struggle with supply and has lost much of its momentum since then. MS has done very little to make the 360 anything more than the Xbox... why should the results be any different? It's going to take more than what MS is doing to replace the PS3.

Japanese support is better than ever. The 360 library runs circles around the original Xbox library and will continue to do so (except for Halo, but that will be addressed soon). Microsoft has set the 360 up nicely and has traversed the year 1 obstacles. It's poised to brow things up in a big way, imo. They key now is for them to promote the heck out of it (they've been holding back in this area for whatever reason). If they bump up the marketing campain, they *will* do extremely well. That's why I'm confident in the 50 million.

 

[Frankfurter]

I already said it in another thread, but I guess it also fits here. One of Microsofts main problems with X360 (and previously Xbox) is the computer. Oblivion, GRAW, CoD2 share one problem for Microsoft: they are also available for the computer and you absolutely cannot convince PC gamers (and the PC is still huge in quite a few countries) to buy a X360 for 400 Euros and a few games for 60 Euros each if they can just have the same games on their computer for 40 Euros each.

 

[ichigo kurosaki]

****, Nokia put way more passion promoting the N-Gage.

That's so true it's scary (and I'm not being sarcastic).

 

[Kabouter]

I already said it in another thread, but I guess it also fits here. One of Microsofts main problems with X360 (and previously Xbox) is the computer. Oblivion, GRAW, CoD2 share one problem for Microsoft: they are also available for the computer and you absolutely cannot convince PC gamers (and the PC is still huge in quite a few countries) to buy a X360 for 400 Euros and a few games for 60 Euros each if they can just have the same games on their computer for 40 Euros each.

40? Try games like Hitman: Blood Money
65 for 360, 50 for PS2/Xbox, 28 for PC.

 

[Arsenal]

I think a key statistic for the 360 in Europe would be to see how many people that have the console are on XBL and using it. That service is what currently defines the 360, but by its nature, it is one of those things that is reinforced as it becomes more popular. Halo 2 continues to be such a big hit because everyone is still playing it - that type of online community tends to build on itself. MS has that in the US and it should allow them to continue to grow in that area at the expense of their competitors, but in the rest of the world, they have yet to build that kind of community. IMO, how well the PS3 matches XBL and allows them to build online communities in these other countries will play a big part in how well the 360 does outside of the US.

 

[Frankfurter]

40? Try games like Hitman: Blood Money
65 for 360, 50 for PS2/Xbox, 28 for PC.

Dunno where you have these prices from, but 40€ for PC games and 60€ for X360 games generally works quite well (just looked up Hitman: Blood Money and it's 43€ for PC, 52€ for PS2/Xbox and 57€ for X360).

 

[Shiggy]

Dunno where you have these prices from, but 40? for PC games and 60? for X360 games generally works quite well (just looked up Hitman: Blood Money and it's 43? for PC, 52? for PS2/Xbox and 57? for X360).

I think he's talking about official prices and they're most time 64.99 EUR for X360 games, although stores sell them cheaper. The same for current gen or Wii games. 59.99 EUR official price, always 5 or 10 EUR cheaper.

 

[RaijinFY]

# PlayStation 2: 106.23 Million shipped as of June 30, 2006 (Japan*: 23.55, NA: 42.97, Europe: 39.71)

I wouldn't call it nowhere near really

fixed and:

*Japan + other asian territories

 

[NintendosBooger]

Games will sell a system.

The XBox 360 isn't doing as well as a sole next-gen system could be doing because of the lack of interesting, captivating, and diverse games. If they can acquire/develop the software, everything else will fall into place.

Why do people try to see beyond this simple concept or try to emphasize other areas (e.g., marketing, strength of name-brand) when these are merely the results of having the right software?

 

[qirex]

Why do people try to see beyond this simple concept or try to emphasize other areas (e.g., marketing, strength of name-brand) when these are merely the results of having the right software?

I think it's because a lot of people see having a first-person bald space marine shooter, a third person bald space marine shooter and a bald space marine shooter where you're a native american and there's portals as a diverse and appealing game line-up.

edit:

Spoiler

For the sarcasm-impaired, this is a joke

 

[Ceb]

Singstar, Buzz and eyetoy games are very popular in europe and so is the DS. Also, HDTV adoption rate is slower. The Wii could very well succeed much more than the GC.

It'll probably do better than the GC, but not by a LOT...

I'm calling 7-8M lifetime sales in the EU.

 

[Phantast2k]

Confident [delusional] Microsoft targets 1m milestone

The Xbox 360 will hit 1m sales in the UK comfortably before Christmas – and, whatever promotions might appear on the High Street, Microsoft has no plans to initiate a formal price drop.
That was the message from Microsoft’s VP for EMEA and home entertainment Chris Lewis, as he discussed the current state of the next-gen market with MCV.

So far 1.3m Xbox 360 machines have been sold in PAL territories under the guidance of Lewis, with global sales at five million.

He expects the 10m global target to be hit by Christmas, with his territories commanding an increased proportion of sales and the UK leading the way.

"The UK team expects to get to a million 360 sales well ahead of Christmas. We have built up a good head of steam, so it certainly won’t be nip and tuck," said Lewis.

European sales will be aided by increased efforts in major territories, and also new markets such as Hungary, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia and South Africa, which will each see the 360 being launched over the next few months.

Russia could be next. "We’re still trying to get there as soon as we possibly can, but only when we’ve got a localised dashboard on the console."

Lewis dismissed notions that European sales outside of the UK and Nordic regions had been poor to date, but did admit that in Spain Microsoft "have had to re-set the dial".

And he added that despite some recent reports, Microsoft has no plans to drop the price of its next-generation console. "We have no intention of making any price moves with 360. We offer great value right now and great choice thanks to the Core and Premium systems. We will also have 160 games and totally own football, so there is plenty to be driving demand."

http://www.mcvuk.com/newsitem.php?id=24326

 

[Roders5]

Confident [delusional] Microsoft targets 1m milestone


http://www.mcvuk.com/newsitem.php?id=24326

This smells like damage control to me

 

[Ghost]

Why wouldnt MS be able to reach a million in the UK? Its clearly their biggest European market, id wager it was over 50% of that 1.3 million, so that'd put them over 600,000 already. Christmas will be HUGE for 360.

 

[Pug]

Ghost, MS will easily get through the 1 million number this Xmas in the UK.

 

[Ghost]

Isnt that what i said?

 

[ziran]

Confident [delusional] Microsoft targets 1m milestone


http://www.mcvuk.com/newsitem.php?id=24326

maybe... but so far only selling 1.3 million in pal territories isn't impressive imo.

i've already seen many stores selling second hand 360s here in the uk, which can't be a good sign. game/eb, the uk's biggest chain, has even relegated the in store position of 360 from what i've seen. also, you only have to look at the charts to see the sw isn't selling well.

as far as 360's prospects in the uk this christmas i think it's more a case of 360 must sell a million before xmas for ms to have a chance at becoming the dominant console this coming gen.

 

[monkeymagic]

PS3 shortages will help X360 in the UK this holiday season.

Probably what MS are betting on.

Doubt they will reach 1M though.

 

[mrklaw]

PS3 shortages will help X360 in the UK this holiday season.

Probably what MS are betting on.

Doubt they will reach 1M though.

PS3 shortages will mean some people will have to wait longer for a PS3 - I don't see it having any noticable impact on 360 sales.

And PS3 has the potential to bring 360 sales to a grinding halt in Europe - simply its appearance will make people pause for thought before buying a 360.

 

[CraigMcD]

game/eb, the uk's biggest chain, has even relegated the in store position of 360 from what i've seen. also, you only have to look at the charts to see the sw isn't selling well.

In my local Game the 360 has just been moved to the front of the shop replacing the DS.

 

[Pug]

Ghost I was actually backing up what you said, I just know what some of major retailers are planning this Xmas with regard to 360 (bundles for the win) and I have an idea where 360 sales are now in the UK! They will hit 1 million in the xmas window. Oh and as for moving 360 sections out of sight, sorry most 360 sections will be in your face, MS buys shop space in the majors.

 

[Ajax]

PS3 shortages will help X360 in the UK this holiday season.

Probably what MS are betting on.

Doubt they will reach 1M though.

Well europeans waited a whole year for PS3, I don't think they'll suddenly rush to buy 360s for a couple of months more of waiting.

 

[Tunesmith]

# PlayStation 2: 106.23 Million shipped as of June 30, 2006 (Japan: 23.55, USA: 42.97, Europe: 39.71)

I wouldn't call it nowhere near really

It's funny how people don't instantly go apeshit and object about the fact that the figure is shipped and not sold units. Yet at every turn where 360 numbers are pointed out there's no shortage of people yelling at the top of their lungs that the numbers pointed out is to shipped and not sold units.:lol

 

[monkeymagic]

PS3 shortages will mean some people will have to wait longer for a PS3 - I don't see it having any noticable impact on 360 sales.

And PS3 has the potential to bring 360 sales to a grinding halt in Europe - simply its appearance will make people pause for thought before buying a 360.

True.

I would say the majority of the retail footfall coming in for PS3 will wait but a lot of people buying it as a present will have no choice but to spend the money elsewhere.

Of course there's always the PS2

 

[F#A#Oo]

Why people think the Wii will suddenly do better in Europe than the GC though, I don't understand. If you talk about the 360 being targeted for an anlgo-saxon audience, then IMO the Wii is the oposite of that and is targeted towards the Japanese audeince. The PS3 remains the most well rounded console, but how that will perform in a more fragmented market is going to take some time to see.

A lot of Japanese orientated games you would consider not to sell...actually sell just as well if not better in Europe then in Japan...

Singstar, Nintendogs etc all sold well...Phoenix Wright is doing quite well here in the UK currently...like-wise Animal Crossing:WW has done very well too...

I think Nintendo will struggle in the UK with the Wii which is Sonyland but everywhere else Nintendo can more then better their GCN sales...

 

[frAntic_Frog]

maybe... but so far only selling 1.3 million in pal territories isn't impressive imo.

i've already seen many stores selling second hand 360s here in the uk, which can't be a good sign. game/eb, the uk's biggest chain, has even relegated the in store position of 360 from what i've seen. also, you only have to look at the charts to see the sw isn't selling well.

as far as 360's prospects in the uk this christmas i think it's more a case of 360 must sell a million before xmas for ms to have a chance at becoming the dominant console this coming gen.

eh....1.3 million for the ENTIRE european region? how many sold in USA so far? in japan/asia?

how are they gonna hit 10million this holiday?

 

[monkeymagic]

MS buys shop space in the majors.

Not from what I've seen in the London stores (in North, West, East and Central).

Could be different up north of course.

 

[Pug]

Monkey, they buy the space when required, Xmas, easter etc, not the middle of summer. By the way I'm in the south Cardiff!

 

[mrklaw]

True.

I would say the majority of the retail footfall coming in for PS3 will wait but a lot of people buying it as a present will have no choice but to spend the money elsewhere.

Of course there's always the PS2

If Mummy is rich enough to be buying Tarquin a PS3 for Christmas, does she really think she'll survive Christmas day if she brings home a 360? Parents know that if kids want something, they want a specific something - especially with consoles.

sure there is likely to be some collateral purchasing, but Xbox 360 sales depend almost solely on the titles is has due for Christmas - and I'm not sure there is enough to face down PS3 which will overshadow the whole of December just by existing.

 

[F#A#Oo]

Not from what I've seen in the London stores (in North, West, East and Central).

Could be different up north of course.

Depends on the company...I know GAME decide how they want their shop space...the PSP is being down-graded as we speak to just a small section, like-wise the 360 is currently also going to be down-graded near the PC section, DS has been bumped up the front with more space. And space is already being made for Wii...and PS3 launches.

HMV, Virgin etc allow you to buy their retail space...

 

[gofreak]

Depends on the company...I know GAME decide how they want their shop space...

Has that changed relatively recently? A GAME manager told me a couple of years back that MS/Sony/Nintendo bid on their placement in stores. They also heavily 'pushed' a particular console, or tried to, but it wasn't as clear if that was directed by exchanged money, or was a result of the local market conditions.

 

[jarrod]

What, you wouldn't have? It's not such a departure from the norm in the handheld space as you'd like to portray it here. Based on the tech curve Nintendo established with previous handhelds, N64 level tech was expected next step and the addition of a second touch screen and microphone didn't take away the basic gamepad controls everyone was familiar with from GBA. Touch screen and mic are not exotic technologies, esp. in the portable space, and since they only supplement the familiar this is hardly a significant departure. And the software that's the most overwhelmingly successful is the same software that had been on the GBA and prior - Nintendo software. The more things change, the more they stay the same, as the saying goes.

Once again, your argument basically boils down to "DS wins because Nintendo". Didn't PlayStation originally kill this sort of narrow mindedness in the 1990s?