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[PJX]

They're not putting a gun to your head to release the game on GP.

This is the thing I don't get. It's like people have never heard of streaming services before. It's the same model. Would you call Squid Game a failure because it didn't sell?

Comparing movies / TV show streaming to games is a wild take. The financials aren't the same.

 

[hemo memo]

Comparing movies / TV show streaming to games is a wild take. The financials aren't the same.

The financial models of movie/TV streaming and game streaming are identical: they rely on subscriptions, diverse content libraries, and user engagement to sustain profitability. Both industries focus on retaining subscribers through consistent new content, exclusives, and affordable access to large libraries. What the hell are you talking about?

 

[PJX]

The financial models of movie/TV streaming and game streaming are identical: they rely on subscriptions, diverse content libraries, and user engagement to sustain profitability. Both industries focus on retaining subscribers through consistent new content, exclusives, and affordable access to large libraries. What the hell are you talking about?

If you don't understand the finanacial difference between the both of them, there is no reason to keep talking to you about it. Now sure how you come to the conclusion that putting a TV show / movie on a streaming sub is the same as for games.

 

[adamsapple]

So giving away old games on a subscription service like Sega Channel, PS+, GP, and Epic won't ruin gaming, which has been my point in response to this post before you started talking about Netflix and a 40 year old British movie service.

Thanks for finally agreeing with me, whew.

 

[MacReady13]

If Xbox gamers don't buy games, publishers wouldn't keep releasing them. You're taking GAF nonsense a bit too seriously. Also, you're incredibly naive if you don't know that an all-digital future is what every single publisher around would prefer.

Either way, you responded to a post of mine claiming MS was focusing on GamePass over games, I'm just saying that doesn't make any sense, you need games for GamePass.

Answer my question- how can anyone buy a game through Microsoft on a firestick?

 

[Korso]

It's been 7 and a half years since Gamepass launched and I'm tired of reading the same shit over and again. Get some new material.

Or you can just read something else...? The internet wasn't designed with you at the center.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Answer my question- how can anyone buy a game through Microsoft on a firestick?

Again,

 

[Little Chicken]

Garbage thread may have been relevant 15 years ago with the advent of free* games on mobile, the most popular gaming platform.

 

[Little Chicken]

It's been 7 and a half years since Gamepass launched and I'm tired of reading the same shit over and again. Get some new material.

People who behave weirdly around Game Pass are the ones that have never tried it, hence why they think it's some kind of recent development when really it's almost a decade old.

 

[Hollowpoint5557]

Or you can just read something else...? The internet wasn't designed with you at the center.

Or people could quit spamming the forum with 2/10 quality posts that have been posted before.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

It's been 7 and a half years since Gamepass launched and I'm tired of reading the same shit over and again. Get some new material.

 

[FoxMcChief]

???

 

[poppabk]

Comparing movies / TV show streaming to games is a wild take. The financials aren't the same.

Yeah Movie/TV streaming services need a ton more content to be viable. Game subscriptions need a lot less.

 

[Korso]

Or people could quit spamming the forum with 2/10 quality posts that have been posted before.

Don't click on it. Problem solved.

 

[Hollowpoint5557]

Don't click on it. Problem solved.

Don't post it, even better.

 

[Korso]

Don't post it, even better.

I didn't. But you however did click and continue to read it.

 

[notseqi]

As a developer, Game Pass doesn't benefit studios the way it was promised. Developers were told that putting their games on Game Pass would lead to increased sales through greater exposure, but that hasn’t worked out as expected. Talking to a few developers that I know they stated that while the initial spike in visibility was noticeable, it hasn’t translated into the kind of long-term sales growth theye were led to believe. Instead, players seem content to engage with their game on the service and then move on to the next title, leaving traditional revenue streams stagnant. Does Game Pass harm developers in ways that are only becoming clear now. Unless Microsft is doing a huge payout, a lot of indie developers I know aren't seeing reasons to release their games on the platform and they payout has decreased dramatically since the buyouts.

A studio I know sent the following assestment to me.

• Revenue Uncertainty: Developers often rely on upfront sales for predictable revenue. Game Pass shifts this model to a subscription-based payout, which can be inconsistent and tied to engagement metrics rather than actual game purchases. This leads to financial uncertainty for studios, especially indie developers.
• Devaluation of Games: With so many titles available for a low monthly fee, the perceived value of individual games decreases. Consumers may become less willing to pay full price for games outside the subscription, creating a "race to the bottom" in pricing.
• Unsustainable Expectations: Game Pass fosters a culture where players expect to access a large library of high-quality games at minimal cost. This places pressure on developers to lower prices or join the subscription service, often at unfavorable terms.
• Lack of Long-Tail Sales: Titles on Game Pass may experience a surge in engagement initially but suffer from reduced long-term sales as players move to newer titles within the subscription. This affects studios that rely on steady income from evergreen titles.
• Indie Developers Struggle: While exposure on Game Pass can boost visibility, many indie developers report that the revenue from the platform doesn’t compensate for the loss of traditional sales. Additionally, it can be challenging for smaller games to stand out among a vast library.

I have not engaged with GamePass but the first thing I think the first thing it would provide to anybody is feedback about a games' quality/engagement to the provider of the game itself, Xbox, and a loss for developers in a world where they could try to sell games unseen or unrated, depending on the size of the game. Bit of a boon for smaller developers, big loss for bigger games tho release could come later, just a weird situation to have to feed such a channel.

 

[Hollowpoint5557]

I didn't. But you however did click and continue to read it.

Read my notifications? Yeah, don't most people? Read the thread? Not past post 1.

 

[saintjules]

I don't think this is news to anyone. Xbox gamers are conditioned to not buy games now. Even free to play lol.

You don't 'buy' free things.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Maybe sales drop 80%, but what if the number of downloads is huge and the game studio makes big money on mtx, and also the MS fee they pay to devs.

Its like saying Adobe should be going bankrupt by now since I dont think they even sell Photoshop anymore for years. People got to sub plan it and Adobe makes money that way. Copies sold has been 0 for years.

 

[Calico345]

People who have never written a line of code or know nothing about software development give their opinion on developing software for the games industry.

Within context, sure. But overall this logic fails across the board for everything in life that it is applied to without specific contexts.

I've never prepared a gourmet meal, but does that mean I am not qualified to say that the chef didn't season the food enough?
Just because I have never written a line of programming code, I can't speak to the value of the software?
The list goes on and on and on.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

Maybe sales drop 80%, but what if the number of downloads is huge

Let's say your average AAA game would normally sell 3M copies in one month.

3*70= 210 Million

It loses 80% of its sales.
3*0.8= 2.4M

which means:
2.4*70 = 168 M dollars of lost revenue.

now. let's say GP is on average 15USD. to compensate for the revenue lost:

revenue lost/cost of subscription = 168/15 = 11.2

GP would need 11.2 million new subscribers to compensate for that revenue lost.

if we think in each subscription as a a "sale" we are taking an increase of almost 300% required sales (people buying the game at 15 USD) to make the same amount of money.

This is just to exemplify the insane amount of money Xbox is leaving on the table.

You can try to spin this all you want, the fact is, the revenue lost is always an unknown subtraction in your final equation.

and the game studio makes big money on mtx,

usually Free to Play games are the ones implementing MTXs/Battle-season passes

those two are basically the subscription to the game and subscribing to GP just to play F2P games is absurd and far less valuable.

oh, but you get free skins if you play via GP.... and who is paying for those?....

and also the MS fee they pay to devs.

... GP didn't solve any problems; in fact, it has created many more issues for MS and developers publishing on Xbox.

as i said many times:

Game Pass has killed impacted the economy of games on Xbox; that's why Xbox is going third party, not for growth, but as a way to compensate for what they have lost (their own storefront within their ecosystem).

Its like saying Adobe should be going bankrupt by now since I dont think they even sell Photoshop anymore for years. People got to sub plan it and Adobe makes money that way. Copies sold has been 0 for years.

This doesn't apply for several reasons.

1. Adobe is a professional product.

2. It transitioned to a service when it was already an industry standard, which basically forced all its consumers to subscribe.

3. You can't buy stand-alone licenses for its current software

 

[MacReady13]

Again,

Xbox need sales. Gamepass is not generating enough money hence the 3rd party status of Microsoft now. So they decide they'll release Gamepass on things like Firestick. How can one support devs by buying a game through a firestick?

 

[poppabk]

Let's say your average AAA game would normally sell 3M copies in one month.

3*70= 210 Million

It loses 80% of its sales.
3*0.8= 2.4M

which means:
2.4*70 = 168 M dollars of lost revenue.

now. let's say GP is on average 15USD. to compensate for the revenue lost:

revenue lost/cost of subscription = 168/15 = 11.2

GP would need 11.2 million new subscribers to compensate for that revenue lost.

if we think in each subscription as a a "sale" we are taking an increase of almost 300% required sales (people buying the game at 15 USD) to make the same amount of money.

This isn't how subscriptions work. Everything changed to a subscription model because it brings in more money, not because they want to give consumers a break. Its because subscriptions bring in money month after month - they only need to bring in, or keep 1 million subscriptions for a year to make up that shortfall. Or 500k for two years. Or 100k for 10 years.
Gaming has the added advantage of being able to bring in revenue from mtx, which we know is bigger than actual game sales in terms of revenue (and likely dwarfs game sales in terms of profit).

 

[Three]

Game Pass has killed impacted the economy of games on Xbox; that's why Xbox is going third party, not for growth, but as a way to compensate for what they have lost (their own storefront within their ecosystem).

This is what people will keep trying to deny till the cows come home. Gamepass became their new platform. It became their focus at the expense of xbox hardware and xbox game sales. They don't even see the difference between Sega Channel and GP and say them both in the same breath as if their impact is somehow equivalent or was as important to Sega. As if Sega Channel was killing game sales or physical in 1994 the same way that the market conditioning is today with products like the Series S and gamepass. They even have MS spell out their reduction in lifetime value (LTV) in court documents but they want to continue to deny its effects.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Xbox need sales. Gamepass is not generating enough money hence the 3rd party status of Microsoft now. So they decide they'll release Gamepass on things like Firestick. How can one support devs by buying a game through a firestick?

Xbox wasn’t generating enough money before GamePass, which is why they created GamePass.

You don’t buy games on GamePass. It’s a sub service. The devs get paid for their games being on it.

Again,

 

[Team Andromeda]

As a developer, Game Pass doesn't benefit studios the way it was promised. Developers were told that putting their games on Game Pass would lead to increased sales through greater exposure, but that hasn’t worked out as expected. Talking to a few developers that I know they stated that while the initial spike in visibility was noticeable, it hasn’t translated into the kind of long-term sales growth theye were led to believe. Instead, players seem content to engage with their game on the service and then move on to the next title, leaving traditional revenue streams stagnant. Does Game Pass harm developers in ways that are only becoming clear now. Unless Microsft is doing a huge payout, a lot of indie developers I know aren't seeing reasons to release their games on the platform and they payout has decreased dramatically since the buyouts.

A studio I know sent the following assestment to me.

• Revenue Uncertainty: Developers often rely on upfront sales for predictable revenue. Game Pass shifts this model to a subscription-based payout, which can be inconsistent and tied to engagement metrics rather than actual game purchases. This leads to financial uncertainty for studios, especially indie developers.
• Devaluation of Games: With so many titles available for a low monthly fee, the perceived value of individual games decreases. Consumers may become less willing to pay full price for games outside the subscription, creating a "race to the bottom" in pricing.
• Unsustainable Expectations: Game Pass fosters a culture where players expect to access a large library of high-quality games at minimal cost. This places pressure on developers to lower prices or join the subscription service, often at unfavorable terms.
• Lack of Long-Tail Sales: Titles on Game Pass may experience a surge in engagement initially but suffer from reduced long-term sales as players move to newer titles within the subscription. This affects studios that rely on steady income from evergreen titles.
• Indie Developers Struggle: While exposure on Game Pass can boost visibility, many indie developers report that the revenue from the platform doesn’t compensate for the loss of traditional sales. Additionally, it can be challenging for smaller games to stand out among a vast library.

It benefits trolls like you mind...

 

[coffinbirth]

What's funny to me is that people really like to ignore the fact that most of these developers are likely getting paid more from Microsoft than what they would've gotten purely from sales on Xbox. Furthermore, I'd also say it's a huge boon to indie developers solely for the exposure.

I'd sure as hell want my game in a curated space with a few hundred games as opposed to the shovelware cesspool of these digital stores with thousands of games, with about a week of visibility before being buried.

 

[FalconPunch]

???

This would be a great argument if the methodology between both were the same. It's really not though as Sony uses the hollywood strategy for their games. It goes through a full sale's cycle. Then after a year or so, it may come to premium and extra. After that, it may come to essential but that is not guaranteed. In turn, they're maximizing profit through all avenues. Microsoft and Phil Spencer made the unfortunately poor decision to chase after the netflix model. A model that focuses not on maximizing profits but on maximizing content and subscriber numbers. Unfortunately, that's a tremendously bad idea in the gaming industry since games take longer to make and cost more than movies.

Gamepass has always and will always be a bad deal for the majority of users, developers, and those interested in making profits. It only benefits Microsoft if they can capture a majority of the industry/market and control it. They can't. Most people play a 2-4 games a year. It'll always be cheaper for them to buy their games outright than to subscribe to a year of gamepass. Gaming consumption patterns are also nothing like movies/shows. You can watch and finish 10 movies in a weekend. You can't do that with many games. All the problems of xbox can be traced back to Gamepass and the appointment of Phil Spencer as the head of xbox. A seriously disaster that we could all see coming since it's inception.

 

[MAX PAYMENT]

Have subscription services like Netflix ruined the TV and movie industry?

 

[DenchDeckard]

What is the actual difference between gamepass and ps plus now?

Just day one ms games? Doesn't ps plus offer the exact same service?

 

[The_Observer]

Who would have thought gamepass would be a disaster? Mighty suits always know better, than “armchair analysts”, right?

 

[pudel]

Have subscription services like Netflix ruined the TV and movie industry?

Its hard (at least for me) to compare movie industry to gaming industry. Movie industry never had a digital storefront landscape like we do have since decades...and which works just fine. Movies are short. Games are usually way longer...so a limited timed model like subscriptions is already way less attractive by default. And there are more incentives to "own" a game (aka the having the files on yr hard drive) compared to a movie...modding for example, or just editing a few files to optimize the game to yr likes. I know gamepass gives you the files as well, but if MS ever decides to encrypt everything you are fcked. I have seen that just recently with MS Flightsimulator. Modders and players had to beg MS to get certain files decrypted.

With subscription models gamers (and devs) give away power and control...and they are empowering no one else than fckn MS (in case of gamepass)!!! If thats not already sounds like a total bullshit idea...than I dont know what is. Currently you give yr money to a store for a game and the money goes directly to the devs of this game (after deducting their share). With gamepass you give yr monthly fee to MS and they are collecting it and distributing it at their own discretion to random devs/games. MS is in full control of what you play and when you play it.

I dont know...for me this are all steps back and not forward from what we have now (at least on pc).

 

[ReBurn]

Answer my question- how can anyone buy a game through Microsoft on a firestick?

Probably via the Microsoft store on a web browser if they really wanted to. Doesn't the thing have Amazon's Silk chromium browser installed by default?

 

[poppabk]

Who would have thought gamepass would be a disaster? Mighty suits always know better, than “armchair analysts”, right?

Is it a disaster?
We are in a world where mtx brings in more revenue than game sales, mobile gaming is bigger than console and PC, Apple makes more profit from gaming than the big 3 put together, the biggest games are mainly GaaS of some type, everyone is putting their games on PC except Nintendo, and everyone has a subscription service, even Nintendo.
The gaming world has changed significantly in the past decade, gamepass is an attempt to adapt to the new paradigm. It may be a failure, MS don't give us the info to judge reliably, but I don't see MS gaming being in a better position if it didn't exist.

 

[K' Dash]

Within context, sure. But overall this logic fails across the board for everything in life that it is applied to without specific contexts.

I've never prepared a gourmet meal, but does that mean I am not qualified to say that the chef didn't season the food enough?
Just because I have never written a line of programming code, I can't speak to the value of the software?
The list goes on and on and on.

Would you be able to savor a gourmet meal if you’re used to eating McDonald’s?

I wouldn’t trust your wine taste, it’s obvious I’d want a sommelier to recommend me one good bottle of wine.

if you’re used to eating crap I expect you to not know what a good meal tastes like.

 

[Giallo Corsa]

It benefits trolls like you mind...

Man, I noticed that everytime you don't agree with someone's point you immediately label them as "trolls", why's that ?

 

[mckmas8808]

Yes I'm talking about all developers.

I'm working on a game at the moment with a team made up of people who were let go or their studio closed down. We started developing the game for all four platforms but in the end we decided to drop Xbox because we just don't see it as a viable platform. It's not worth the risk at the moment and we aren't th eonly ones who have this thought process.

This is interesting.....

 

[The_Observer]

Is it a disaster?
We are in a world where mtx brings in more revenue than game sales, mobile gaming is bigger than console and PC, Apple makes more profit from gaming than the big 3 put together, the biggest games are mainly GaaS of some type, everyone is putting their games on PC except Nintendo, and everyone has a subscription service, even Nintendo.
The gaming world has changed significantly in the past decade, gamepass is an attempt to adapt to the new paradigm. It may be a failure, MS don't give us the info to judge reliably, but I don't see MS gaming being in a better position if it didn't exist.

I think they would definitely be in a better position if competent people were in charge and their priorities were on developing exceptional games instead of pushing this which will result in failure. How long do you think they can keep developing AAA games when no one is really paying for them? At least not how much it is needed to make profit.

 

[mckmas8808]

This isn't how subscriptions work. Everything changed to a subscription model because it brings in more money, not because they want to give consumers a break. Its because subscriptions bring in money month after month - they only need to bring in, or keep 1 million subscriptions for a year to make up that shortfall. Or 500k for two years. Or 100k for 10 years.
Gaming has the added advantage of being able to bring in revenue from mtx, which we know is bigger than actual game sales in terms of revenue (and likely dwarfs game sales in terms of profit).

You're 100% wrong here.

 

[poppabk]

You're 100% wrong here.

100%?
We have seen several Sony financials where add-on content revenue is usually similar or higher than game sales revenue.The higher profit isn't a given sure, but seems likely.
Subscriptions bringing in more money? Hard to say but the move to subscriptions for almost everything says that companies see the value in them.
Reducing churn being as valuable as bringing in new customers?
Okay there is a fair bit of nuance there and there are lots of inter related factors, but on the most simplified level a retained customer brings in the same revenue as a new customer.

 

[MacReady13]

Xbox wasn’t generating enough money before GamePass, which is why they created GamePass.

You don’t buy games on GamePass. It’s a sub service. The devs get paid for their games being on it.

Again,

Again, if Microsoft stop making consoles and the ONLY way my grandma can play games in on her firestick, how will my grandma purchase games if she just has a controller and a firestick?

Lets not try change the subject here- "For DEVELOPERS, Gamepass is the worst thing to happen to the industry". If sales go away, Gamepass on a firestick/Samsung TV/LGTV etc, will not be great for developers. So thank you for answering my question- you CANNOT buy games to own on a firestick if that is all you have. This is what Microsoft is pushing- a future where it's all cloud and rental. If you're comfortable with that, continue down this path. If not, vote with your fucking wallet.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Again, if Microsoft stop making consoles and the ONLY way my grandma can play games in on her firestick, how will my grandma purchase games if she just has a controller and a firestick?

Lets not try change the subject here- "For DEVELOPERS, Gamepass is the worst thing to happen to the industry". If sales go away, Gamepass on a firestick/Samsung TV/LGTV etc, will not be great for developers. So thank you for answering my question- you CANNOT buy games to own on a firestick if that is all you have. This is what Microsoft is pushing- a future where it's all cloud and rental. If you're comfortable with that, continue down this path. If not, vote with your fucking wallet.

They haven't stopped making consoles, and they still sell their games at retail and outside of GamePass and not exclusively on the cloud. This is the same doomsday nonsense we have heard for years about GamePass.

The games will be GamePass exclusive
DLC will be GamePass exclusive
MS will start churning out unfinished slop to stuff GamePass
Xbox games will become episodic and spaced out to drip feed content to subscribers

You think sales are going away? Why would sales go away? Even the video and music industries, which have shifted much much further away from physical than gaming and rely much much more on subscriptions than gaming, still have physical media for sale and digital sales. Yet Microsoft, a distant third out of three in the console space, will somehow sway the entire industry, against its will, into a "Firesticks for grannie" future.

Once again,

 

[MacReady13]

Yet Microsoft, a distant third out of three in the console space, will somehow sway the entire industry, against its will, into a "Firesticks for grannie" future.

I'm so glad that companies like EA, Sony, Ubisoft, Rockstar, Nvidia, Apple, Nintendo, Amazon, Google etc have decided that subscriptions are bad for the gaming industry and don't want them in gaming. Especially companies like Apple and Nintendo who don't ever lock anything away behind a subscription service. It's definitely not the future and I'm glad that Microsoft don't try get everyone subscribed into Gamepass and they are really push paying for games day 1 instead of renting games on their sub service.

And again I will say, MANY pundits have stated that Microsoft (and Sony) might have 1 generation left of consoles. Where do we go from there? Where do the sales come from? Much like music and movies (although people like you would love to continuously state that physical media is still around- it is dying cause of people like you) sales will dry up, and we will not own what we pay for. This may be the future you want, but there are many millions of us who don't want to go down this path.

Continue to support subscription services over sales and you'll soon see Microsoft and all those other companies get their way with rentals only. It is a dire future that only big corporations want. Wonder why they're so keen for us to not own anything...

 

[mckmas8808]

100%?
We have seen several Sony financials where add-on content revenue is usually similar or higher than game sales revenue.The higher profit isn't a given sure, but seems likely.
Subscriptions bringing in more money? Hard to say but the move to subscriptions for almost everything says that companies see the value in them.
Reducing churn being as valuable as bringing in new customers?
Okay there is a fair bit of nuance there and there are lots of inter related factors, but on the most simplified level a retained customer brings in the same revenue as a new customer.

- Yes, add-on content revenue brings in HUGE money. But Sony isn't making that money solely or mainly due to a subscription model.

- Yes, there's value in subscription models. But the movie industry is crying after what companies like WB did to theaters during covid. Many execs and creatives have talked about how much the subscription model has or is ruining media industries right now.

- And to the bolded......that's only if you retain the customer long term.

 

[mckmas8808]

And again I will say, MANY pundits have stated that Microsoft (and Sony) might have 1 generation left of consoles. Where do we go from there? Where do the sales come from? Much like music and movies (although people like you would love to continuously state that physical media is still around- it is dying cause of people like you) sales will dry up, and we will not own what we pay for. This may be the future you want, but there are many millions of us who don't want to go down this path.

Ever wonder why Sony and MS (so far) never seems to agree with the pundits on this?

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

I'm so glad that companies like EA, Sony, Ubisoft, Rockstar, Nvidia, Apple, Nintendo, Amazon, Google etc have decided that subscriptions are bad for the gaming industry and don't want them in gaming. Especially companies like Apple and Nintendo who don't ever lock anything away behind a subscription service. It's definitely not the future and I'm glad that Microsoft don't try get everyone subscribed into Gamepass and they are really push paying for games day 1 instead of renting games on their sub service.

And again I will say, MANY pundits have stated that Microsoft (and Sony) might have 1 generation left of consoles. Where do we go from there? Where do the sales come from? Much like music and movies (although people like you would love to continuously state that physical media is still around- it is dying cause of people like you) sales will dry up, and we will not own what we pay for. This may be the future you want, but there are many millions of us who don't want to go down this path.

Continue to support subscription services over sales and you'll soon see Microsoft and all those other companies get their way with rentals only. It is a dire future that only big corporations want. Wonder why they're so keen for us to not own anything...

Physical media is dying because consumers prefer convenience and availability. PC gaming has been pretty much entirely digital for decades and it’s fine. Have fun being scared of progress forever

 

[MacReady13]

availability

You continue to believe that availability is one of the hallmarks of digital distribution. Plus we are talking sub services. Anyway this is getting quite tiresome talking the same shit. We clearly don't agree.

 

[MacReady13]

Ever wonder why Sony and MS (so far) never seems to agree with the pundits on this?

I hope consoles remain relevant for a very long time. Contrary to what others on here may think, evolution in the console space doesn't mean that consoles need to die.

 

[Drew1440]

I did enjoy the concept of gamepass but within the past few years it's been used to prop up more mediocre titles that would have overwise flopped, like Wolfenstein Youngblood, Redfall. Microsoft should really focus more on quality than quantity.